Demystifying the swarms meme, by anon.

[Daidre]

But in this game you have no option but to approach from the front, going straight through a thick concentration of enemies. Yes, you can stealth in to sabotage the fight in several ways, but a frontal fight is still in the cards no matter what. There's no "intelligence" in forcing me into a dumb situation and then making me use the game's limited and inadequate NPCs to battle it.

I do not get your logic. In Stag Lord fort there is an option to sneak into the camp by athletic or mobility check and go through the enemies pack-by-pack sabotaging the whole place and recruiting some NPCs. Why are you claiming that game forces you into frontal assault?

Because some dumb chick at the gate tries to talk you into full frontal and you, like a some dialogue-skipping idiot, agree?

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Let's imagine how the bandit fort would go if it were a PnP game:

DM: You see the bandit fort in the distance. What do you do?

PC: Let's use the wizard's animal familiar to scout the fort and get an idea of the layout.

DM: You can't do that. I never implemented familiars.

PC: wat? didn't implement them?

DM: No, sorry.

PC: Okay, let's find a place nearby to hide, somewhere defensible in case we get attacked. Let's wait and watch the fort to see how many bandits are and what their routine is.

DM: You can't do any of that. Your viewing distance is about 30' in front of you, because that's how far the fog of war is.

PC: ...r u serious?

DM: Yes.

PC: Okay, let's approach the fort from the rear and look for a way to lure out the guards.

DM: You can't do that. I only mapped out the front of the fort. The back is blocked by rocks.

PC: ...well my climbing skill is +8...

DM: Nope too bad, rocks are everywhere. You must approach from the front.

PC: Fine. We walk up to the front door.

DM: All the bandits rush out to fight you. Roll initiative. Also they have an owlbear which has 38 Strength for some reason.

*one short, hilariously one-sided combat later*

PC: Wow, your level design is really unfair.

DM: YOu NeEd tO UsE yoUR bRAIn HuRRRRR DUUURRRRRR

 

[Pink Eye]

You can also persuade NPCs to join you in the final fight against the Stag Lord. Subterfuge and all that.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

go through the enemies pack-by-pack sabotaging the whole place

Why the flying fuck would I sneak straight through the enemies. That is a contradiction in terms.

Sneaking means avoiding enemies, as in, not choosing the most enemy-filled approach. But the game gives you no other options.

 

[Daidre]

Why the flying fuck would I sneak straight through the enemies. That is a contradiction in terms.

DM: You can't do that. I only mapped out the front of the fort. The back is blocked by rocks.

have you missed a part that whole place is built on the cliff? Like, you know, most defensible and hard to sneak in area in the region.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

You can also persuade NPCs to join you in the final fight against the Stag Lord. Subterfuge and all that.

This is the fundamental difference. You need to guess what pre-made solutions the designers will *allow* you to use, which is not what I would call "using your brain." But opinions differ.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

have you missed a part that whole place is built on the cliff?

climb skill. flying familiars. ropes and grapples. etc.

 

[Shadenuat]

Stag Lord fort is one of the better areas, but alas I don't think this design repeats that much further in the game. trolls you already mostly chunk through, so do hydras spiders and wild hunt.

scouting and retreating break the triggers for cutscenes and overall engine of the game so western RPGs seem to constistenly fail at that department, isometric anyway.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

it is fine to be butthurt about bad game design.

It's bad game design in that the developers did not do a good job of explaining the encounter or its mechanics. Up to this point in the game the player has relied mostly on auto attacking things, and has not been taught about different enemy mechanics; such as enemies that are immune to auto attacks, and require area of effect based attacks. This is further expounded upon when players get the quest early before hitting the level 3 power spike.

explain or not, there is still enemies popping Dragon Age 2 style; and now cave has 15 copypasted spiders.

if more spiders didn't pop out of nowhere people would be less butthurt.

spiders popping out of "nowhere" is one of the few exceptions I'm willing to accept
spiders typically can hide pretty darn well

 

[Pink Eye]

You can also persuade NPCs to join you in the final fight against the Stag Lord. Subterfuge and all that.

This is the fundamental difference. You need to guess what pre-made solutions the designers will *allow* you to use, which is not what I would call "using your brain." But opinions differ.

There is two NPCs that can potentially join you, well three. One is Akiros Insmort. When you approach him a dialogue is initiated. One of the options is to convince him to help you, which requires a roll. Or if you passed a religion check, you need not even roll to persuade him to aid you. The other is the Owlbear, which is too initiated in a dialogue. One of the options for the Owlbear is to calm it down, which in turn will let him help you in the final fight. That one requires a nature check. The third NPC is the woman that you fought in the quest to retrieve Oleg's wife ring. If you spared the woman bandit, a whole squad of bandits will be waiting for you at the gate. At first she will tell you to storm the place, but don't do that. Sneak in and eliminate the threats within instead.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

trolls you already mostly chunk through,

What's funny about the trolls is there are supposed to be so many of them they are threatening the whole region, with an endless army appearing every month, yet in the whole entire dungeon there are what, 20-30 trolls? Some army.

If I told my players they had six months before an army overran their lands, they would expect that victories won against said army would prevent said overrunning.

 

[Daidre]

If I told my players they had six months before an army overran their lands, they would expect that victories won against said army would prevent said overrunning.

You could always tell players that their peasants grew tired of the constant Troll attacks, gathered their belongings and left the barony, dooming it in the process.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

If I told my players they had six months before an army overran their lands, they would expect that victories won against said army would prevent said overrunning.

You could always tell players that their peasants grew tired of the constant Troll attacks, gathered their belongings and left the barony, dooming it in the process.

I'd ask why my soldiers are so useless that they can't repel trolls at the border and the baron himself has to go handle it with only a couple people helping

 

[Grampy_Bone]

gathered their belongings and left the barony

They would still want some option to convince them to stay to turn things around. Simply saying "time expired, game over" would never fly in tabletop.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

If I told my players they had six months before an army overran their lands, they would expect that victories won against said army would prevent said overrunning.

You could always tell players that their peasants grew tired of the constant Troll attacks, gathered their belongings and left the barony, dooming it in the process.

I'd ask why my soldiers are so useless that they can't repel trolls at the border and the baron himself has to go handle it with only a couple people helping

The Baron proposing a duel with the Troll king to end the stalemate at his borders, end the slaughter of his troops, and to ease the worries of the peasants would be a decent way to work around this
Trolls, not known for honor, would of course simply ambush him when he shows up as a plot concocted by Tartuccio.

Spoiler

And a non-lawful player could stage their own ambush

I admit that I've only DM'd a couple times though, mostly out of necessity.

 

[Daidre]

They would still want some option to convince them to stay to turn things around. Simply saying "time expired, game over" would never fly in tabletop.

And here I'am glad that impossible-to-lose-RPG designed about beating every fight at the first try were never a thing. Some principles should stay in PnP.

 

[Maxwell's Demon]

People act like super-genius tactics can overcome numerical advantages but at a certain point they just can't.

You need to read a book on military strategy before making blanket statements like this. Especially complicated strategies aren't needed to defeat superior numbers. That's a misconception brought on by hack writers.

A party of level 1 characters can never beat an elder red dragon no matter what they do, and making them fight one is not an "interesting puzzle" except to the masochistic.

Why can't level 1 characters collapse a cavern on a dragon while it's sleeping?

 

[Pink Eye]

Let's imagine how the bandit fort would go if it were a PnP game:

DM: You see the bandit fort in the distance. What do you do?

PC: Let's use the wizard's animal familiar to scout the fort and get an idea of the layout.

DM: You can't do that. I never implemented familiars.

PC: wat? didn't implement them?

DM: No, sorry.

PC: Okay, let's find a place nearby to hide, somewhere defensible in case we get attacked. Let's wait and watch the fort to see how many bandits are and what their routine is.

DM: You can't do any of that. Your viewing distance is about 30' in front of you, because that's how far the fog of war is.

PC: ...r u serious?

DM: Yes.

PC: Okay, let's approach the fort from the rear and look for a way to lure out the guards.

DM: You can't do that. I only mapped out the front of the fort. The back is blocked by rocks.

PC: ...well my climbing skill is +8...

DM: Nope too bad, rocks are everywhere. You must approach from the front.

PC: Fine. We walk up to the front door.

DM: All the bandits rush out to fight you. Roll initiative. Also they have an owlbear which has 38 Strength for some reason.

*one short, hilariously one-sided combat later*

PC: Wow, your level design is really unfair.

DM: YOu NeEd tO UsE yoUR bRAIn HuRRRRR DUUURRRRRR

Because video games are not PnP. A computer game is not capable of thinking of every single unorthodox that a player will come up with. Limits have to be set, in order for the game to be shipped. The scenario here is that the player is besieging a fortified fortress. The choices that you have is to either lead a frontal assault, or sneak from the side and eliminate the threats within. You can also convince the guards to lead you to the Stag Lord for a honorable one versus one. There is a lot of reactivity in how you deal with this area.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

The scenario here is that the player is besieging a fortified fortress

yea but why
if there's only like 20 trolls how are they rampaging your barony though

 

[Pink Eye]

The scenario here is that the player is besieging a fortified fortress

yea but why
if there's only like 20 trolls how are they rampaging your barony though

Not talking about Trolls, but the Stag Lord fort. Man this thread is going by faster than I can type.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Why can't level 1 characters collapse a cavern on a dragon while it's sleeping?

Probably don't have access to powerful enough explosives, far outside the 3d6 x10 gp starting budget, and 20d6 damage save for half is unlikely to kill said dragon anyway.

*edit* not to mention no level 1 characters can sneak up on a high level dragon. Not possible. 1st level PCs cannot defeat a 20+ spot check roll.

You need to read a book on military strategy before making blanket statements like this

We're talking about CRPG governed by stats and numbers, not real life. In real life for example every bandit and animal should run away when it's clear they're going to lose, but in the game they all have perfect morale and never flee unless scripted. Another example of how the game makes things unnecessarily harder. Hell, even BG 1/2 had a morale system.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

The fortress is a well designed encounter. You can stealth in(check the far-left side), you accidentally land right on top of one of the staglord's higher ups who you can — if you pass the checks — convince to fight for you.

 

[Pink Eye]

If I told my players they had six months before an army overran their lands, they would expect that victories won against said army would prevent said overrunning.

You could always tell players that their peasants grew tired of the constant Troll attacks, gathered their belongings and left the barony, dooming it in the process.

I'd ask why my soldiers are so useless that they can't repel trolls at the border and the baron himself has to go handle it with only a couple people helping

Well to be fair, you started a barony on a land known for being impossible to colonize. Furthermore, it is to be expected that your army isn't up to standards this early into the game.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

The fortress is a well designed encounter.

In this game's limited terms, sure, but I would never take such a stealth route as the game gives you. I would approach from a side where there is zero chance of being spotted. No ability to scout the enemy numbers, no ability to affect the outcome besides being directly present (ambushing patrols outside to reduce their numbers for example.)

People keep saying "use your brain" but I am prevented from doing so, I have to use the developer's brain. Not quite the same thing.

 

[Maxwell's Demon]

We're talking about CRPG governed by stats and numbers, not real life. In real life for example every bandit and animal should run away when it's clear they're going to lose, but in the game they all have perfect morale and never flee unless scripted. Another example of how the game makes things unnecessarily harder. Hell, even BG 1/2 had a morale system.

No, C&C spells and abilities are literally the application of the "defeat in detail" principle. Moral is irrelevant, so long as there is a way to temporarily deny some of your enemies the chance to fight, the principle is applicable.