Demystifying the swarms meme, by anon.

[Pink Eye]

The game doesn't follow Core rules. I don't just mean that it flubs mechanics like sneak attacks, it also throws underlying game concepts like CR, EL, and NPC vs PC differences out the window. I only ever wanted a game that was accurate to Core rules, classifying this as a "meme" or "entitled players" is very far off the mark.

The developers can make whatever kind of game they wanted, but they claimed they were trying to recreate the tabletop experience and in that regard they failed miserably. The main complaints were from PnP players like me who were expecting an accurate rendition of the rules. I have heard every excuse for why the game doesn't follow the core rules, but nevertheless, it is a poor implementation of the Pathfinder tabletop game.

By "meme" I just meant that they are super easy to fight, unless you pump the difficulty. A lot of the complaints about the game is specifically about how "difficult" it is. Which was true during release day when 99% of the mechanics were broken. Which made it difficult to ascertain if certain mechanics were per pnp, or if the game was just bugged. Second comment on that steam thread said:
"Rather, it's that some of us had to use upwards of 12 flasks to take down both swarms. This led us to believe it was bugged"
That's how bad it was back then. But that was in the past. The game is much different compared to then.

 

[The Avatar]

Pathfinder's swarm mechanics are somewhat intuitive if the player takes the time to reflect upon how one might fight a 'swarm' of insects in real life, you can't carve up a swarm of insects easily with your longsword, that makes complete sense, swarms take extra damage from AOE, that makes complete sense, they swarm over you and crawl inside your armor so they autohit, that makes complete sense.

In REAL LIFE you could probably just step on them until they're all dead. If they made that as a mechanic, people wouldn't have complained so much.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

The problem is that players aren't taught to think for themselves in many other aspects of the game

Worse than that, the game teaches you wrong, though this is mostly in regards to the kingdom management aspect.

-The first chapter has a clear time limit: you have X days to take the fort. Cool. Next chapter, no time limit. Except there is, only its invisible. Since the game shows you the first time limit up front, the lack of a clear deadline makes it seem like there isn't one.

-The game doesn't let you solve problems with the tools it gives you. Every month there's a "troll attack" event card. You assign your general and fight off the trolls every month. No problem. Then suddenly you lose the game because "you didn't deal with the troll problem." What? Motherfucker, you saw me deal with them. I assigned the general and everything. What more do you want?

This is just bad design. There's no reason why dealing with the troll problem with the kingdom mechanics shouldn't push out the deadline. The player shouldn't fail from arbitrary time limits when they are managing the issue effectively within the game. On the other hand, if you want the player to solve problems directly, don't make it seem like it's something I can delegate while I go off and explore.

I know they patched in the option to prevent the kingdom from being lost due to bad rolls but as far as I know the invisible time limits are still there, which is another hard pass from me.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Pathfinder's swarm mechanics are somewhat intuitive if the player takes the time to reflect upon how one might fight a 'swarm' of insects in real life, you can't carve up a swarm of insects easily with your longsword, that makes complete sense, swarms take extra damage from AOE, that makes complete sense, they swarm over you and crawl inside your armor so they autohit, that makes complete sense.

In REAL LIFE you could probably just step on them until they're all dead. If they made that as a mechanic, people wouldn't have complained so much.

You also wouldn't need like 10 flasks to deal with 2 swarms. One flask should kill every swarm in it's AoE without an attack roll. The idea that a bunch of normal sized spiders are just crawling through a patch of burning napalm and still attacking at full strength because you failed your to-hit roll and dealt 1 damage is beyond retarded. It's just not an enemy type that meshes well with the combat system to begin with, this is the sort of thing you roleplay around instead of making attack rolls with thrown potions that are balanced around humanoid combat.

 

[Yosharian]

Pathfinder's swarm mechanics are somewhat intuitive if the player takes the time to reflect upon how one might fight a 'swarm' of insects in real life, you can't carve up a swarm of insects easily with your longsword, that makes complete sense, swarms take extra damage from AOE, that makes complete sense, they swarm over you and crawl inside your armor so they autohit, that makes complete sense.

In REAL LIFE you could probably just step on them until they're all dead. If they made that as a mechanic, people wouldn't have complained so much.

How do you step on something that's swarming all over your body?

 

[Yosharian]

Pathfinder's swarm mechanics are somewhat intuitive if the player takes the time to reflect upon how one might fight a 'swarm' of insects in real life, you can't carve up a swarm of insects easily with your longsword, that makes complete sense, swarms take extra damage from AOE, that makes complete sense, they swarm over you and crawl inside your armor so they autohit, that makes complete sense.

In REAL LIFE you could probably just step on them until they're all dead. If they made that as a mechanic, people wouldn't have complained so much.

You also wouldn't need like 10 flasks to deal with 2 swarms. One flask should kill every swarm in it's AoE without an attack roll. The idea that a bunch of normal sized spiders are just crawling through a patch of burning napalm and still attacking at full strength because you failed your to-hit roll and dealt 1 damage is beyond retarded. It's just not an enemy type that meshes well with the combat system to begin with, this is the sort of thing you roleplay around instead of making attack rolls with thrown potions that are balanced around humanoid combat.

I mean the other thing is that in a real PnP situation against a swarm that can't fly, you could easily attack a specific square with the flask (AC 5 to hit a 5-foot square with a splash weapon, result affects surrounding squares also) and either block off an area or coat the area that the swarm is currently in. So you forgo the direct damage roll but that swarm is still now sitting in a square that's on fire. And as you say, that should deal a lot of damage. 10 flasks is ridiculous. Also even a miss should result in the flask exploding in a nearby square which should still coat the swarm in fire.

Of course the other issue is that once a swarm is.. well, swarming a party member, friendly fire becomes a thing.

 

[Pink Eye]

Pathfinder's swarm mechanics are somewhat intuitive if the player takes the time to reflect upon how one might fight a 'swarm' of insects in real life, you can't carve up a swarm of insects easily with your longsword, that makes complete sense, swarms take extra damage from AOE, that makes complete sense, they swarm over you and crawl inside your armor so they autohit, that makes complete sense.

In REAL LIFE you could probably just step on them until they're all dead. If they made that as a mechanic, people wouldn't have complained so much.

You try stomping this shit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWVw-j8eYSk

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I think if a DM threw an encounter at players that they had zero chance of winning and couldn't flee from, the DM is a shit DM.
Unless they added it, there's no way to escape combat after entering it sans reloading an old save.

 

[ga♥]

At release I was more annoyed by the damn Mature Leopard (not a magical beast, just an animal).
Never made sense to me that a damn leopard could kill 6 armed adults (I think I was lvl3)

 

[Trashos]

Computer games are not pnp. Their content is supposed to be replayable. They also feature a reload button. These are huge differences, and they necessarily lead to different design decisions if the crpg does not want to end up being laughing stock.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Computer games are not pnp. Their content is supposed to be replayable. They also feature a reload button. These are huge differences, and they necessarily lead to different design decisions if the crpg does not want to end up being laughing stock.

I wasn't aware that a "flee from combat" button made games a laughing stock. Let me go review all the RPGs that are now jokes.

 

[Pink Eye]

In my opinion we should be applauding developers for adding enemies that force you to switch up your tactics. More complexity, not less.

 

[Pink Eye]

I do agree with Yosh that the developers fumbled by not explaining the swarm mechanic. They also fucked up majorly by making them a optional encounter in the EE version. Which results in the player not being able to learn HOW to deal with that specific encounter. But what's done is done.

 

[Sjukob]

In my opinion we should be applauding developers for adding enemies that force you to switch up your tactics. More complexity, not less.

How do you deal with evasion swarms without alchemist/arcane bomber or kineticist ?

 

[Pink Eye]

In my opinion we should be applauding developers for adding enemies that force you to switch up your tactics. More complexity, not less.

How do you deal with evasion swarms without alchemist/arcane bomber or kineticist ?

You stock up on bombs. Martials can still throw bombs too. Also have a character with a high enough UMD to use fireball scrolls/wands. Or bring along a wizard/sorcerer. What I mean is that auto attacking won't work on this specific enemy. You have to use a different form of attack. Which is a good thing. My monks are able to one shot most things in the game on Unfair, excluding sneak/crit immune shit.

 

[Sjukob]

You stock up on bombs. Martials can still throw bombs too.

Miss. Reflex saving throw succeded. Even if you have some martials with precise shot, fire/acid flasks deal pathetic damage and don't kill those swarms in one hit. Gets even more fun when there are multiple of them.

Also have a character with a high enough UMD to use fireball scrolls/wands. Or bring along a wizard/sorcerer.

Reflex saving throw succeded. When I played season of bloom for the first time I had Octavia with me and she was specced into evocation (spell focus and greater spell focus), quick spider swarms were dodging her fireballs consistently and that was on normal difficulty, good thing that my MC was a grenadier.

What I mean is that auto attacking won't work on this specific enemy.

Do you think that swarms having evasion is a good idea ? Just asking.

 

[Yosharian]

I'm not sure how swarms can even have evasion

 

[Pink Eye]

I'm not sure how swarms can even have evasion

He's speaking of quickspider swarms.

 

[Yosharian]

I'm not sure how swarms can even have evasion

He's speaking of quickspider swarms.

I meant in the sense of how a swarm can evade attacks like Fireball, but now that I think about it I suppose a swarm of very fast and agile creatures could in theory pull off moves like that

 

[Pink Eye]

You stock up on bombs. Martials can still throw bombs too.

Miss. Reflex saving throw succeded. Even if you have some martials with precise shot, fire/acid flasks deal pathetic damage and don't kill those swarms in one hit. Gets even more fun when there are multiple of them.

Also have a character with a high enough UMD to use fireball scrolls/wands. Or bring along a wizard/sorcerer.

Reflex saving throw succeded. When I played season of bloom for the first time I had Octavia with me and she was specced into evocation (spell focus and greater spell focus), quick spider swarms were dodging her fireballs consistently and that was on normal difficulty, good thing that my MC was a grenadier.

What I mean is that auto attacking won't work on this specific enemy.

Do you think that swarms having evasion is a good idea ? Just asking.

Well considering that I have close to 2k hours from playing this game exclusively on the hardest difficulty. I like to give myself the benefit of doubt here.

I have dealt with swarms in the exact manner that I suggested to you, both quickspider and mandragora swarms.

These types of games should strive to present the player with puzzle like encounters that require the player to think.

 

[Sjukob]

These types of games should strive to present the player with puzzle like encounters that require the player to think.

Sure, but my main concern is how well it's done. Evasion swarms, however, are not well designed. Essentially, you just shoot and hope that it connects, kind of like shooting a gun with a massive spread and not being able to reduce it (think of AWP in CS without scope and zoom), of course you can bring an alchemist or a kineticist, which doesn't get rid of a bad design, but at least provides you with a workaround.

 

[Syme]

In my opinion we should be applauding developers for adding enemies that force you to switch up your tactics. More complexity, not less.

How do you deal with evasion swarms without alchemist/arcane bomber or kineticist ?

You stock up on bombs. Martials can still throw bombs too. Also have a character with a high enough UMD to use fireball scrolls/wands. Or bring along a wizard/sorcerer. What I mean is that auto attacking won't work on this specific enemy. You have to use a different form of attack. Which is a good thing. My monks are able to one shot most things in the game on Unfair, excluding sneak/crit immune shit.

You can also just attack them with a flaming/corrosive/etc. weapon, it's no different than attacking with your torch in the first encounter. They're immune to physical weapon damage, but not the elemental part, so you'd be doing 1d6 per hit. It's not much, but it's usually better to attack 2+ times per round with a cheap +1 flaming weapon rather than throwing a single flask, especially since for most swarms their touch AC is already their full AC.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Spider swarms have always been doable on any difficulty. Use ppl with high Dex+ precise shot to throw the flasks duh! Use stuff that doesn't require an attack roll, burning hands, channel negative energy duh! Protect tanking girl with delay posion and resist fire (if spamming burning hands).
Yes, it required a modicum of brain activity, which was and will remain the problem.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

Swarms were a real cippa lippa in my days.

 

[LannTheStupid]

I've never played a D&D game in my life

You could have stopped at that.