Demystifying the swarms meme, by anon.

[Shadenuat]

The problem was that the myth never died. People are still parroting that meme to this day.

it's not a problem. developers done bad job, they now have worse rep. should have done better job. bad encounters deserve to be hurt back.

I am personally sick and tired of the fact that people who make RPGs cannot make a decent introduction dungeon for the sake of their lives aka 3 rooms with 1 enemy 3 enemies and 2 optional difficult enemies; or that developers still furiously copypasting same mob 15-30-50 times per dungeon.

this shit is NOT hard, doesn't require any code work or scripting. it is simply drawing rooms in editor and popping mobs from d20site into them. if you have engine+deveditor your dog can do it, if it played d&d for a year.

when you're making baldrusgate you must do well 2 things: monsters and loot. if you can't do it even though you have examples of it done right (like BG2) write romances instead.

 

[Efe]

VentilatorOfDoom not everyone has harrim at start. of amiri, valerie, jaethal and harrim. none of them are likely to have precise shot and high dex.
burning hands does jack shit.
looks like you didnt play 1.0

 

[*-*/\--/\~]

Damn, you could probably get a degree in 1770 hours. And there I complain that 90 hour games are way too long. :D

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

VentilatorOfDoom not everyone has harrim at start. of amiri, valerie, jaethal and harrim. none of them are likely to have precise shot and high dex.
burning hands does jack shit.
looks like you didnt play 1.0

I did play the game when it came out (first char was Eldritch archer) and defeated the swarms at lvl2. Which is the level you should have even when doing it first after Olegs. This was before they started to give out free oils etc, so I had to buy some.
I did defeat the swarms on unfair by having Val and Jaethal tank (scrolls of delay poison and resist fire) and having 2 chars (mercs) spam burning hands. Those swarms don't have a lot of HP and lvl2 burning hands does 2d4 fire damage, no attack roll required. So yes, I played the game.

 

[Shadenuat]

2 chars (mercs) spam burning hands. Those swarms don't have a lot of HP

encounter requires thinking > hire 2 more wizards

 

[Daidre]

I am personally sick and tired of the fact that people who make RPGs cannot make a decent introduction dungeon for the sake of their lives aka 3 rooms with 1 enemy 3 enemies and 2 optional difficult enemies; or that developers still furiously copypasting same mob 15-30-50 times per dungeon.

when you're making baldrusgate you must do well 2 things: monsters and loot. if you can't do it even though you have examples of it done right (like BG2) write romances instead.

BG2 itself did starting dungeon so right that the first mention of it was provoking rants about how much everyone hate Chateau Irenicus for a 20 years after release(!).

 

[Shadenuat]

I am personally sick and tired of the fact that people who make RPGs cannot make a decent introduction dungeon for the sake of their lives aka 3 rooms with 1 enemy 3 enemies and 2 optional difficult enemies; or that developers still furiously copypasting same mob 15-30-50 times per dungeon.

when you're making baldrusgate you must do well 2 things: monsters and loot. if you can't do it even though you have examples of it done right (like BG2) write romances instead.

BG2 itself did starting dungeon so right that first mention of it was provoking rants about how much everyone hate Chateau Irenicus for a 20 years after release(!).

BG2 starting dungeon is pretty great. good enemy variety, multiple quests, interesting loot (including artifact parts, which are better than that abortion of an artisan system), companion interactions, cool scenes, traps, puzzles, enemies from previous game (doppel), wand-floor etc.

sure people "hate it". when they roll their 50th character to replay the game.

it is better than many areas that fill Pathfinder.

 

[Maxwell's Demon]

Wait, let me get this straight, people were were so butthurt about that spider encounter in the early game that Owlcat changed the encounter in response?

 

[Daidre]

Wait, let me get this straight, people were were so butthurt about that spider encounter in the early game that Owlcat changed the encounter in response?

Yes, by staffing five times more spiders and couple of extra swarms into the new version of the cave. But no need to fight swarms to get quest item now.

 

[Shadenuat]

when there was stream with 2 designers I asked if you can just use Sneak to get berries; both of them were shocked by proposition. they never thought about it.

 

[Sjukob]

when there was stream with 2 designers I asked if you can just use Sneak to get berries; both of them were shocked by proposition. they never thought about it.

What a way to destroy hopes for the sequel with a single sentence.

 

[Pink Eye]

Wait, let me get this straight, people were were so butthurt about that spider encounter in the early game that Owlcat changed the encounter in response?

Yes. And people are still butt hurt about it to this day.

 

[Shadenuat]

it is fine to be butthurt about bad game design.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

There's definitely no reason a swarm of bugs should have evasion; it's supposed to be a heroic ability to dodge an attack at the last second, hide behind a rock, shield yourself with an obstruction, etc. A swarm of tiny insects should be instakilled by a fireball unless they are fire immune.

These types of games should strive to present the player with puzzle like encounters that require the player to think.

The issue I have with this mentality is people forget that a CRPG is already vastly more limited in terms of interaction than a PnP game. As a PC in a tabletop setting I could think of a dozen ways to deal with the bandit fort in Chapter 1, none of which involve a frontal assault. But in this game you have no option but to approach from the front, going straight through a thick concentration of enemies. Yes, you can stealth in to sabotage the fight in several ways, but a frontal fight is still in the cards no matter what. There's no "intelligence" in forcing me into a dumb situation and then making me use the game's limited and inadequate NPCs to battle it.

People act like super-genius tactics can overcome numerical advantages but at a certain point they just can't. A party of level 1 characters can never beat an elder red dragon no matter what they do, and making them fight one is not an "interesting puzzle" except to the masochistic. To be fair, Kingmaker never goes that far, but the mentality that the player is not entitled to a mechanically even playing field is simply wrong.

 

[Shadenuat]

These types of games should strive to present the player with puzzle like encounters that require the player to think.

they also should strive to present player with tools for the job.

 

[Serus]

encounter requires thinking > hire 2 more wizards

He said "unfair difficulty" which is supposed to be... well unfair. Unfair requires you to cheese the game by its design so I think hiring two additional wizards is fair.
BTW i played the game a littler n 1.0, i stopped very quickly but i did the swarms. From what i remember:
I died the first time -> reload - bought flasks at oleg's -> done (perhaps after a reload or two, can't remember).

I think if a DM threw an encounter at players that they had zero chance of winning and couldn't flee from, the DM is a shit DM.
Unless they added it, there's no way to escape combat after entering it sans reloading an old save.

How convenient that we are not talking about a game with a DM.

Also reloading an old save game - what a novel concept in a single player computer game !

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Computer games are not pnp.

One thing about this statement I agree with is that PnP mechanics are designed for speed of play and accessibility. They use low numbers that can be rolled on dice and involve simple math like addition and subtraction. There's no reason to limit a CRPG to this level of math or complexity when you can move it all under the hood and the player doesn't have to deal with it. You can make something that enjoys the advantages of the CPU power while still maintaining the flavor and style of tabletop. Example: Divinity Original Sin.

Nevertheless, Owlcat licensed Pathfinder presumably to use the Pathfinder ruleset. It's not like the setting is all that interesting, it's utterly generic fantasy. One of the game's main selling points was system accuracy to attract PnP fans, so in that regard I felt rather let down. Buyer beware, I suppose.

This is all part of the usual circular argument about this subject though:

"Kingmaker is faithful to the PnP system."

No it isn't, here are several examples.

"OMG WHY DO YOU EVEN CARE?"

I care, you are allowed not to care. To each their own.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

How convenient that we are not talking about a game with a DM.

Nuts. The designer of the game is for all intents and purposes the DM. They put every monster in the game by hand, they put all the other restrictions in place, they designed every NPC themselves, and they tweaked and modified all the base monsters away from the core rules.

In fact, Pathfinder is far more limiting and restrictive than any PnP game, which is an argument to go easier on the player, not make things harder. I would never force a group to use pre-made PCs as bad as the ones in this game, for one example, and if I did and then threw them into a fight for which none of them even *could* be prepared I would be showered with mountain dew cans in disgust.

 

[Rinslin Merwind]

*Some people criticize game*

OP: "Ayy Lmao it's just a meme pushed by evul steam guyz"

Other people: "No it's not"

OP: *butthurt noises and creates useless thread on forum*

Honestly I had no problems with swarms, because I had alchemist with bombs in my party, but I can see why other people can be frustrated.
And no, this encounter does NOT make you think in any way, because solutions are fucking limited.

 

[Serus]

Computer games are not PnP because they use a fundamentally different medium. It is not a matter of some specific mechanics from PnP but basic ways you play it..

 

[Shadenuat]

computers are simulator machines, they try to simulate particular things. if they fail at that saying that they are not the original thing is a pointless argument. if it's supposed to be rpg/pnp experience, option to sneak around enemies and take fucking quest item should have crossed designers mind for example.

 

[Serus]

How convenient that we are not talking about a game with a DM.

Nuts. The designer of the game is for all intents and purposes the DM. They put every monster in the game by hand, they put all the other restrictions in place, they designed every NPC themselves, and they tweaked and modified all the base monsters away from the core rules.

In fact, Pathfinder is far more limiting and restrictive than any PnP game, which is an argument to go easier on the player, not make things harder. I would never force a group to use pre-made PCs as bad as the ones in this game, for one example, and if I did and then threw them into a fight for which none of them even *could* be prepared I would be showered with mountain dew cans in disgust.

ROTFL. In pnp terms it makes them the designer of the module and home rules. The dm is the guy who sits at one end of the table and talks with players presenting them the adventure he or someone else made making up stuff as need arises. Did you ever play a pnp at all ?

 

[Pink Eye]

it is fine to be butthurt about bad game design.

It's bad game design in that the developers did not do a good job of explaining the encounter or its mechanics. Up to this point in the game the player has relied mostly on auto attacking things, and has not been taught about different enemy mechanics; such as enemies that are immune to auto attacks, and require area of effect based attacks. This is further expounded upon when players get the quest early before hitting the level 3 power spike.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Did you ever play a pnp at all ?

Yes, I ran 2e, 3e, and Pathfinder games for 20 years.

The DM is a 'referee' and often designs each adventure for the playing session, sometimes though they use a module made by someone else. In a CRPG, the 'referee' is the computer program and designer is the game developer, but it's the same concept.

Either you're deliberately being pedantic and obtuse or you have problems comparing two things which are similar in abstract.

 

[Shadenuat]

it is fine to be butthurt about bad game design.

It's bad game design in that the developers did not do a good job of explaining the encounter or its mechanics. Up to this point in the game the player has relied mostly on auto attacking things, and has not been taught about different enemy mechanics; such as enemies that are immune to auto attacks, and require area of effect based attacks. This is further expounded upon when players get the quest early before hitting the level 3 power spike.

explain or not, there is still enemies popping Dragon Age 2 style; and now cave has 15 copypasted spiders.

if more spiders didn't pop out of nowhere people would be less butthurt.