KickStarter Dead State: Reanimated

[dryan]

Neither is insulting developers.

Actually, customers have no obligation. Content providers have to be held to a higher standard always. It's the customer that makes the provider's activity viable, after all.

go into a restaurant or fast food joint, be loud, obnoxious and slightly condescending or insulting about every minor issue, see what it gets you.
people are people, and nobody likes annoying fucks.

It gets me a lawsuit against them if they tamper with my food. People are people, but people who sell things have to be humble.

 

[Haba]

All helpful reviews are negative.

 

[Vault Dweller]

VD called people morons and AoD still sold at least 3 copies.

In my defense, your honor, these people *were* morons. If you have to blame someone, blame society and the parents.

 

[Gragt]

Let’s arrest society and parents then.

 

[Mastermind]

Neither is insulting developers.

Actually, customers have no obligation. Content providers have to be held to a higher standard always. It's the customer that makes the provider's activity viable, after all.

go into a restaurant or fast food joint, be loud, obnoxious and slightly condescending or insulting about every minor issue, see what it gets you.
people are people, and nobody likes annoying fucks.

Those people chase away other customers and are a net loss. Online, nobody can hear you scream.

 

[SuicideBunny]

It gets me a lawsuit against them if they tamper with my food. People are people, but people who sell things have to be humble.

food tempering is fairly rare. you're more likely to be overcharged to compensate for your assholeness, recorded, uploaded and made fun of on social media, and if you are annoying to the point of being disruptive outright refused service.

 

[dryan]

It gets me a lawsuit against them if they tamper with my food. People are people, but people who sell things have to be humble.

food tempering is fairly rare. you're more likely to be overcharged to compensate for your assholeness, recorded, uploaded and made fun of on social media, and if you are annoying to the point of being disruptive outright refused service.

I don't even know why I'm arguing this point so much. I guess that's because I had to buy something today, and I hate to spend money, so I'm feeling on edge with consumer rights.

 

[Morkar Left]

Neither is insulting developers.

Actually, customers have no obligation. Content providers have to be held to a higher standard always. It's the customer that makes the provider's activity viable, after all.

go into a restaurant or fast food joint, be loud, obnoxious and slightly condescending or insulting about every minor issue, see what it gets you.
people are people, and nobody likes annoying fucks.

It gets me a lawsuit against them if they tamper with my food. People are people, but people who sell things have to be humble.

Some customers throw a dollar at you and think they own you and can demand and insult you to their liking and you would still suck their cock. I wouldn't deal with them. Literally.

 

[the_shadow]

the pendulum has swung way too far in favour of consumers

Quite the opposite, video game developers enjoy certain privileges that they didn't in the past and other classes of businessmen don't either. It's gotten to a point where you can get people to pay you for working as a beta-tester for your unfinished & broken game. That's right, that's not even free labor, it's laborers that pay to provide you with a service.

Did anyone hold a gun to their head and force them to beta test the product? This may surprise you, but some people consider it a honour to have play a small part in developing a creative work. I know this may be a foreign concept to some people on the Codex, who spend untold hours with their thumb up their ass bitching about how all modern RPGs suck instead of contributing anything of value to the gaming world.

Actually, customers have no obligation. Content providers have to be held to a higher standard always. It's the customer that makes the provider's activity viable, after all.

I don't think that anyone would deny that customers keep any content producer in business. That's a no brainer. However, customers are paying for a product or service, not to have their cock sucked after vocally and publicly tarnishing the reputation of the business and demanding a boycott. Is it good for business to get into a pissing match with an irrational customer amped up for a fight? In 99.9% of cases, probably not, because it turns into a consumer rights issue. But does the producer have a moral and ethical obligation not to get in a pissing match? I'd argue that the answer is no. If the producer wants to risk losing business by telling an obnoxious customer not to let the door hit them on the way out, that's there choice, and I won't refuse to purchase their product or service based on that altercation. The transaction has ended, and if either party wants to tell the other to each shit and die, who am I to care? Consumer rights culture has every consumer (and fan) for that matter thinking they are precious little snowflakes.

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

True, but VD is.... tactful with his comments. He's very good at it.

He actually does seem better at it than Dead State people. Couple days back I peeked in on the AoD Steam forum because WHERE'S MY NOVEMBER AND DECEMBER UPDATES LEBOWSKI and found this. http://steamcommunity.com/app/230070/discussions/0/626329820972079887/#p1

He hadn't locked the thread down last time I looked in there, but even his thread locking isn't too bad. No bannu, and he even says the guy can keep saying AoD's shit and VD raped his mother, he just doesn't want him insulting other forum goers. Not too wild about the thread lockdown but by comparison that's better than calling upset customers fuckers and praying to Notch. Well, upset customers that you upset even more by banning. Plus that guy's being a hell of a lot rougher than just wanting an apology for a buggy release.

Also 12 of my Steam friends own AoD, 13 including myself. Those sales numbers have have nearly quadrupled!

 

[dryan]

the pendulum has swung way too far in favour of consumers

Quite the opposite, video game developers enjoy certain privileges that they didn't in the past and other classes of businessmen don't either. It's gotten to a point where you can get people to pay you for working as a beta-tester for your unfinished & broken game. That's right, that's not even free labor, it's laborers that pay to provide you with a service.

Did anyone hold a gun to their head and force them to beta test the product? This may surprise you, but some people consider it a honour to have play a small part in developing a creative work. I know this may be a foreign concept to some people on the Codex, who spend untold hours with their thumb up their ass bitching about how all modern RPGs suck instead of contributing anything of value to the gaming world.

Yeah, and some people derive sexual pleasure from eating feces out of their own volition. That makes them fucked up in the head, just as much as people who pay to work.

I don't think that anyone would deny that customers keep any content producer in business. That's a no brainer. However, customers are paying for a product or service, not to have their cock sucked after vocally and publicly tarnishing the reputation of the business and demanding a boycott. Is it good for business to get into a pissing match with an irrational customer amped up for a fight? In 99.9% of cases, probably not, because it turns into a consumer rights issue. But does the producer have a moral and ethical obligation not to get in a pissing match? I'd argue that the answer is no. If the producer wants to risk losing business by telling an obnoxious customer not to let the door hit them on the way out, that's there choice, and I won't refuse to purchase their product or service based on that altercation. The transaction has ended, and if either party wants to tell the other to each shit and die, who am I to care? Consumer rights culture has every consumer (and fan) for that matter thinking they are precious little snowflakes.

Expecting a piece of software to be reasonably bug-free and finished is now on the same level as expecting your cock to be sucked? You are literally and actually a moron, and people like you enable these shitty practices in the first place.

 

[Zombra]

It's a shame that DB doesn't have a pro PR shell, but at the same time, I find it very stupid how often companies are slammed when their employees post opinions on personal Twitter accounts or whatnot. Folks on both sides of this need to learn what it means to keep church and state separate.

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

Neither is insulting developers.

Actually, customers have no obligation. Content providers have to be held to a higher standard always. It's the customer that makes the provider's activity viable, after all.

go into a restaurant or fast food joint, be loud, obnoxious and slightly condescending or insulting about every minor issue, see what it gets you.
people are people, and nobody likes annoying fucks.

Well generally in a fast food joint they apologize and correct the issue and/or give you free food for their fuckup. Theoretically restaurants would do the same, but since there are so goddamn many of them and the time it takes to get new food at one I usually just pay, leave, never do business with them again, and tell other people about the bad experience.

So yeah. I've had better experiences complaining to pimply faced burger flipping youths than that guy has with Doublebear.

 

[Zombra]

Expecting a piece of software to be reasonably bug-free and finished is now on the same level as expecting your cock to be sucked? You are literally and actually a moron, and people like you enable these shitty practices in the first place.

Thing is, Dead State is reasonably bug-free and finished. Still could use some patching, but really it's fine.

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

It's a shame that DB doesn't have a pro PR shell, but at the same time, I find it very stupid how often companies are slammed when their employees post opinions on personal Twitter accounts or whatnot. Folks on both sides of this need to learn what it means to keep church and state separate.

That's why you do things anonymously and/or under a handle on the internet. Buddy of mine got fired because he was pulled in to HR, asked if this was his Twitter account, he said yes, that was it. His grave offense was saying something along the lines of "Murder EVERYONE" which naturally he didn't truthfully mean but they weren't having any of that. His Twitter account was his name incidentally, and he was the lead web designer for a social networking page so he wasn't a completely disposable drone.

The reason I bring it up is because it's not just game developers that can be bit in the ass by that. If you want to just fuck around and vent on the internet then for fuck's sake use a handle.

 

[sser]

"The customer is always right" isn't a literal axiom, it's just a statement you have to follow if you want to actually make money. You have to think long-term. One should pretty much never talk shit about any customer ever. Yeah, sure, it feels good, but it's insanely stupid from a business standpoint. 99.9% of people aren't going to know what you're being angry about, they'll just see you being angry. Hell, I went onto the Steam forums and while I instantly knew that the devs were badmouthing and banning, it took some investigation to figure out why. Vast majority of folks aren't going to take the time to really delve into that shit. They'll see the devs acting poorly and make a decision pretty quickly from there. Hell, if they even hear about it going on, without seeing it first hand, that's bad.

Also, I don't think someone putting X-hours into a game reflects the value they got out of it. Yeah, putting 85-hours in is a lot for a game you don't like, but I've been there. I dropped 40-hours (per Steam) into Empire: Total War, and it's one of the worst games I've ever played. I just really, really wanted to like it, and really, really wanted a game with its setting. If anything, someone who drops a ton of hours into a game is more likely to have a a clear mindset on the game's quality than someone who drops ten and pens a review while he's still in what I'd call the "honeymoon" phase.

 

[Vault Dweller]

True, but VD is.... tactful with his comments. He's very good at it.

He actually does seem better at it than Dead State people. Couple days back I peeked in on the AoD Steam forum because WHERE'S MY NOVEMBER AND DECEMBER UPDATES LEBOWSKI and found this. http://steamcommunity.com/app/230070/discussions/0/626329820972079887/#p1

He hadn't locked the thread down last time I looked in there, but even his thread locking isn't too bad. No bannu, and he even says the guy can keep saying AoD's shit and VD raped his mother, he just doesn't want him insulting other forum goers. Not too wild about the thread lockdown but by comparison that's better than calling upset customers fuckers and praying to Notch. Well, upset customers that you upset even more by banning. Plus that guy's being a hell of a lot rougher than just wanting an apology for a buggy release.

Locking the thread was the only way to keep the idiot from getting banned. I find him amusing (but I did spend 10 years on the Codex which, um, alters your perspective and broadens your horizons, especially when it comes to shit people yell at you) but other people take his shit seriously and file one report after another (15 reports in the last 2 days).

 

[ST'Ranger]

VD called people morons and AoD still sold at least 3 copies.

Correct me if I'm wrong (my glasses could very well be rose-tinted here), but VD chose as the target of his ire a group that is specifically disinterested in the kind of game he is making. Even the specific comments in question were stated in a "people that want to play X type of games vs. people that don't" fashion. If anything, this dogged defense of certain principles may have had a net benefit to copies sold.

On the other hand, we have people passive-aggressively blaming their customers for their problems and openly threatening to make a shitty followup game if their expectations aren't met - meanwhile publicly insulting and condemning what is probably a large part of their potential playerbase. I really don't think the situations compare very closely.

It's a shame that DB doesn't have a pro PR shell, but at the same time, I find it very stupid how often companies are slammed when their employees post opinions on personal Twitter accounts or whatnot. Folks on both sides of this need to learn what it means to keep church and state separate.

This is a very sensible attitude in general, but it starts to fray when the Company(TM) is a handful of people. The demarcation between personal and professional, between individual and conglomerate is highly uncertain here.

What people are doing in this discussion is mostly pointing out that customers can be filth from the fifth circle and experience no significant consequences whereas an employee of a very small company cannot. I read this criticism as more of a "look, guys, don't hurt yourselves like this" rather than an antagonistic slur. The asymmetry in this situation means the developers (in trying to maximize their benefits) should not engage if they are rational actors.

Also, it's not generally any one thing that will cause people to decide one way or another. I'm interested in the game but am skeptical about its mechanics. In researching the game, if I stumble upon some questionable stuff from developers, it probably won't positively influence my decision. In my case, I'd feel quite at odds doing what I would interpret as rewarding the behavior I've seen so far. Mostly the combat mechanics seem mediocre to me, but it doesn't help DoubleBear that I now also have to overcome negative feelings about putting money in Annie's bank account.

 

[Perkel]

Neither is insulting developers.

Actually, customers have no obligation. Content providers have to be held to a higher standard always. It's the customer that makes the provider's activity viable, after all.

go into a restaurant or fast food joint, be loud, obnoxious and slightly condescending or insulting about every minor issue, see what it gets you.
people are people, and nobody likes annoying fucks.

Answer is write on your front window "customer xxx can suck my dick ?"

because this is what forum/twitter/internet is

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

but other people take his shit seriously and file one report after another (15 reports in the last 2 days).

Snitches get stitches. By the law of the land you should ban every one of them instead.

 

[Athelas]

I'm pretty sure 'VD called people morons and AoD still sold at least 3 copies.' is supposed to be sarcasm.

 

[Kos_Koa]

but other people take his shit seriously and file one report after another (15 reports in the last 2 days).

Snitches get stitches. By the law of the land you should ban every one of them instead.

That would be a funny turn of events, to just ban everyone who talks shit about the guy who's badmouthing your game.

 

[Gragt]

He actually does seem better at it than Dead State people. Couple days back I peeked in on the AoD Steam forum because WHERE'S MY NOVEMBER AND DECEMBER UPDATES LEBOWSKI and found this. http://steamcommunity.com/app/230070/discussions/0/626329820972079887/#p1

The problem with releasing your game on Steam is the Steam forum.

 

[Kem0sabe]

Minor annoyance concerning dialogues... Well, it's a big annoyance.

The dialogue lines that you exaust with each npc shod disappear, I keep going on to talk to the various npcs in the school only to find the same dialogue choices staring back.

 

[Lhynn]

Minor annoyance concerning dialogues... Well, it's a big annoyance.

The dialogue lines that you exaust with each npc shod disappear, I keep going on to talk to the various npcs in the school only to find the same dialogue choices staring back.