D&D 5E Discussion

[JamesDixon]

1) Orcs get added as a PHB race. About time.

Gee only 29 years too late. You could play orcs and other races in AD&D 2E using The Complete Book of Humanoids published in 1993.

You could play orcs in BECMI D&D using the rules in 1988's Gazetteer 10 The Orcs of Thar, which also covered kobolds, goblins, hobgoblins, gnolls, bugbears, ogres, and trolls.

Thanks for the info bud. I never did play OD&D, so your expertise is welcome.

 

[halfchad]

Honestly, 5E did what they wanted it to do: it was so dumbed down that everyone, even women, can play it and that it's almost impossible to die in any given encounter. This meant it became extremely popular and made a staggering amount of cash.

Where can they go from here?

If they follow the formula, they either start taking away elements or adding back in things they left out this edition for their gullible customers to pay for again.

 

[deuxhero]

There are some news about the new edition, and they are mostly horrific. Amidst the worst of the changes:
1) All nat 1s are failures, all nat 20s are successes. "I rolled 20 to jump to the HECKING moon" will now be codified in the rules. Also, you get an inspiration point if you roll a HECKING twenty.
2) They're adding a heavenly analogue to tieflings, but not aasimar. They're furries.
3) Only PCs can critical hit now.
4) They're doubling down on race nonsense, kobolds are still as strong as goliaths.

Amidst the changes that I like:
1) Orcs get added as a PHB race. About time.
2) Feats are now grouped by power level, which means we're done pretending that Lucky and Actor are worth the same feat slot.
3) You can no longer crit with spells.
4) Dwarves get tremorsense.
5) Backgrounds are now mechanically powerful parts of your character build instead of irrelevant ribbons.
6) All arcane/divine/primal casters will share spell lists, which means wizard should be cucking sorcerer less at least on that front.

I think assigning the attribute bonuses to backgrounds is actually worse than race, since they didn't lock in backstory. Especially as they are in the playtest material, where there's a single good option for Wizard (Artisan, since it gets +2 intelligence and a feat that actually does something for a wizard). 5E's bonded accuracy creates more problems than it solves, and the attribute fuckery 5E can't get rid of exemplifies that.

For critical hits, I think only PCs and "special" enemies, akin to "Heroic" characters (those with at least one level in a PC class) in Saga Edition, Wildcards in Savage Worlds or non-minions in Mutants and Masterminds would have been fine if the scaling was clearly such that Wildcards (or whatever they're called) far outmatch minions from the start and not even pretend four thugs with clubs are a serious match for four PCs even at level 1. They won't do that though.

Another decline is Half-Elves not existing. Half-orcs were dumb mechanically ("here's a race that makes you a retard nobody likes but is better at combat" is dumb in a game that claims to be more than combat and dumb in a game that's all combat) and plot and not a single setting did anything of value with them. Even Eberron, the single setting that does anything besides inexplicably common tragic backstory or orc apologist, does it by downplaying them existing as much as it can with a PHB race (human/orc hybrids exist, but they're just an uncommon result of two neighboring cultures peacefully interacting). Half-elves actually had interesting stuff done with them.

 

[Bara]

Okay from the play test for tieflings what the fuck

The earliest tieflings joined ranks with non-tieflings to repel fiendish incursions on many worlds, earning the trust of those who might otherwise have mistaken them for Fiends.
Thanks to the victories and sacrifices of these legends, tieflings throughout the multiverse enjoy widespread acceptance.

Really now... widespread acceptance.

I hope enough people complain to make them realize how dumb that is but I doubt it. Shit who knows maybe if there is now no edge at all to playing a tiefling it'll stop being such a stupidly popular race and we just start treating them goat folk with silluy horns and tails.

What lore they had 5e and post sucks.

Just thank god other editions and their retro-clones will be around forever.

 

[Larianshill]

I'd like to remind you that Baldur's Gate 3, the flagship DnD video game, could not be more different. You walk into the druid grove, and the very first thing you see is a guy throwing racial slurs at a tiefling. You then go deeper, and see a druid calling the tiefling child a thief and a parasite, killing whom is not a crime. And if you so much as touch the precious druid idol, the RACE WAR begins, because the druids just assume the tieflings are responsible

 

[Morblot]

Amidst the worst of the changes: [snip]

Okay from the play test for tieflings what the fuck [snip]

I... I don't care. I used to care -- a lot! -- but I just realized I don't give a shit anymore. Just whatever. Do what you want with your shitty game, WotC, fuck up the rules, fuck up the races, fuck up the lore, make everyone trans and gay and let everyone shoot rainbows out of their assholes for all I care, whatever. I'm numb.

It's kind of liberating, really.

 

[Hobo Elf]

I think assigning the attribute bonuses to backgrounds is actually worse than race, since they didn't lock in backstory. Especially as they are in the playtest material, where there's a single good option for Wizard (Artisan, since it gets +2 intelligence and a feat that actually does something for a wizard). 5E's bonded accuracy creates more problems than it solves, and the attribute fuckery 5E can't get rid of exemplifies that.

Nah, it lets you pick the race with the other racials like darkvision or flight that you find interesting. Racial attributes are cancer since it's not really a choice. You choose your class and pick the race that gives a bonus to its primary attributes. Anything else and you're larping. And larp can have value for some players, but the larp in this case is always "and my character is just weaker". Not very interesting. Racials like sleep immunity are way more interesting and universally useful.

Another decline is Half-Elves not existing.

As I understood they just removed them as a "race" choice since it's redundant now. When you roll your character you can pick your parents' races to combine your own half-whatever with some of the racial bonuses from both races. If I understood it correctly then that'd be major incline, not decline.

 

[deuxhero]

All wizards being Artisans is more retarded than all wizards being human, half-elf, elf, or tiefling. Both are retarded, but it's a magnitude thing.

Unlike Half-Orc (which is just Orc, but not as dumb and not as much a brute), Half-Elf is unique mechanically and have a unique, independent culture in multiple settings. Removing them breaks them, removing half-orc breaks nothing.

 

[Alex]

Why is anyone even trying to maximize stuff in 5e? A bonus to intelligence is only going to matter in the beginning since you are limited to 20 on any attribute and you get there pretty fast anyway if you start from 16. Hell, you don't even get bonus spells anymore so mostly you are fighting over a 5 or 10 percent difference on saving throws against your spells.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Why is anyone even trying to maximize stuff in 5e? A bonus to intelligence is only going to matter in the beginning since you are limited to 20 on any attribute and you get there pretty fast anyway if you start from 16. Hell, you don't even get bonus spells anymore so mostly you are fighting over a 5 or 10 percent difference on saving throws against your spells.

I disagree. That emphasizes how desperately you need to squeeze out every bit of DC you can get. What few (non ray) spells you have are so u reliable. There is also the major problem of CC now granting a save every round without any kind of special feat or feature.

 

[Alex]

Why is anyone even trying to maximize stuff in 5e? A bonus to intelligence is only going to matter in the beginning since you are limited to 20 on any attribute and you get there pretty fast anyway if you start from 16. Hell, you don't even get bonus spells anymore so mostly you are fighting over a 5 or 10 percent difference on saving throws against your spells.

I disagree. That emphasizes how desperately you need to squeeze out every bit of DC you can get. What few (non ray) spells you have are so u reliable. There is also the major problem of CC now granting a save every round without any kind of special feat or feature.

But you will get there anyway...

 

[Hobo Elf]

All wizards being Artisans is more retarded than all wizards being human, half-elf, elf, or tiefling. Both are retarded, but it's a magnitude thing.

Unlike Half-Orc (which is just Orc, but not as dumb and not as much a brute), Half-Elf is unique mechanically and have a unique, independent culture in multiple settings. Removing them breaks them, removing half-orc breaks nothing.

But again.. they aren't removed. You can still be a half-elf with the new system. It just isn't limited to elf-human hybrids anymore. Any and all permutations are now allowed with the new changes which will lead to even more racial differences.

 

[Caim]

Not like this.

Hey I remember that from the last time they tried that, with 4e. Hope this time around the code isn't an impenetrable mess that nobody can make heads or tails off because the guy behind it left the company doing a Chris Benoit impersonation.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Okay from the play test for tieflings what the fuck

The earliest tieflings joined ranks with non-tieflings to repel fiendish incursions on many worlds, earning the trust of those who might otherwise have mistaken them for Fiends.
Thanks to the victories and sacrifices of these legends, tieflings throughout the multiverse enjoy widespread acceptance.

Really now... widespread acceptance.

I hope enough people complain to make them realize how dumb that is but I doubt it. Shit who knows maybe if there is now no edge at all to playing a tiefling it'll stop being such a stupidly popular race and we just start treating them goat folk with silluy horns and tails.

What lore they had 5e and post sucks.

Just thank god other editions and their retro-clones will be around forever.

Tieflings were created for the Planescape campaign setting in 1994, are defined in relation to the races of the Planes, and should never have been introduced into any other D&D/AD&D campaign setting. The problem is that WotC and Habsro abandoned the better D&D/AD&D campaign settings in favor of the blandest, most generic one possible, but then have apparently placed within this dull setting elements, such as tieflings, from the better ones.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

D&D died with TSR

 

[thesecret1]

Been playing 5e on and off for the past two years or so. What's so bad about it? Mechanics-wise, obviously, I just ignore all their gay lore, lol.

 

[Alex]

Been playing 5e on and off for the past two years or so. What's so bad about it? Mechanics-wise, obviously, I just ignore all their gay lore, lol.

Well, if you ask me...

1. Almost all duration spells are based on concentration, and that means you can only have one such spell on at any time. This greatly reduces the kind of creative use of spells and mixing and matching of buffs you could do in previous editions.
2. Many magic items require "attunement" which seems some kind of silly mmo rule to limit the usefulness of hoarding stuff.
3. Many of the spells are greatly reduced in usefulness from previous editions. Charm person, for instance, can only be used for an hour at best, whereas in 2e it could last months against a dimmer creature, and even weeks against a normal intelligence one that nevertheless had bad saves (like most people without levels are likely to). This problem tends to be somewhat ameliorated on high level spells (7th and up) but low level spells are specifically made so they don't have much lasting effect.
4. Death save rules are too lenient (even if I say this as the guy who managed to die in 5e).
5. There are also several places where the rules are far too separated from the fiction they are supposed to represent. An example of this I have in mind is how ghosts take half damage from non-magical, non-blessed weapons. In 2e, for reference, a silver weapon would cause half damage, and a magic one would do full damage. But otherwise, they would harmlessly pass through the creature. And spells from creatures not in the ethereal plane would likewise pass right through him.

In the end, with a good DM the game can still be a whole lot of fun. If your options are either playing 5e or nothing at all, then I would definitely choose 5e. But it could be much better than it is.

 

[JamesDixon]

If your options are either playing 5e or nothing at all, then I would definitely choose 5e.

Here I thought you were prestigious and would have chosen the nothing at all option.

I'd rather punch my balls 100 times in a row than play DANDINO 5E shit.

 

[Alex]

If your options are either playing 5e or nothing at all, then I would definitely choose 5e.

Here I thought you were prestigious and would have chosen the nothing at all option.

I'd rather punch my balls 100 times in a row than play DANDINO 5E shit.

At the end of the day, the quality of an RPG is more a fruit of those playing it than rules and set pieces. A bad DM will spoil any game he touches, and a good group can have fun even with a bad system. Of course, if you can convince your friends to play AD&D 2e, I expect this to result in a much better game (assuming that you truly convince them. Someone forced to play a game he doesn't like and dragging the game down for others may be even worse than playing 5e).

I had two experiences with 5e myself. One was with a few others from the Codex, where we played Birthright. It was a really great game, especially because the DM, David, really knew what he was trying to do and set various house rules that helped make 5e less annoying. The other is with a few friends I've played with for years. This second game was played more like the core book and is not so interesting, but it is still fun to play with the said friends. At the end of the day, I would say that 5e feels a bit too simple, though lacking the fast gameplay you might get from a game that really focused on that like Advanced Fighting Fantasy or Tunnels & Trolls.

 

[JamesDixon]

If your options are either playing 5e or nothing at all, then I would definitely choose 5e.

Here I thought you were prestigious and would have chosen the nothing at all option.

I'd rather punch my balls 100 times in a row than play DANDINO 5E shit.

At the end of the day, the quality of an RPG is more a fruit of those playing it than rules and set pieces. A bad DM will spoil any game he touches, and a good group can have fun even with a bad system. Of course, if you can convince your friends to play AD&D 2e, I expect this to result in a much better game (assuming that you truly convince them. Someone forced to play a game he doesn't like and dragging the game down for others may be even worse than playing 5e).

I had two experiences with 5e myself. One was with a few others from the Codex, where we played Birthright. It was a really great game, especially because the DM, David, really knew what he was trying to do and set various house rules that helped make 5e less annoying. The other is with a few friends I've played with for years. This second game was played more like the core book and is not so interesting, but it is still fun to play with the said friends. At the end of the day, I would say that 5e feels a bit too simple, though lacking the fast gameplay you might get from a game that really focused on that like Advanced Fighting Fantasy or Tunnels & Trolls.

And you still didn't play D&D. That's the point I was making. Great that you had fun with DANDINO, but it's not D&D.

 

[thesecret1]

Been playing 5e on and off for the past two years or so. What's so bad about it? Mechanics-wise, obviously, I just ignore all their gay lore, lol.

Well, if you ask me...

1. Almost all duration spells are based on concentration, and that means you can only have one such spell on at any time. This greatly reduces the kind of creative use of spells and mixing and matching of buffs you could do in previous editions.
2. Many magic items require "attunement" which seems some kind of silly mmo rule to limit the usefulness of hoarding stuff.
3. Many of the spells are greatly reduced in usefulness from previous editions. Charm person, for instance, can only be used for an hour at best, whereas in 2e it could last months against a dimmer creature, and even weeks against a normal intelligence one that nevertheless had bad saves (like most people without levels are likely to). This problem tends to be somewhat ameliorated on high level spells (7th and up) but low level spells are specifically made so they don't have much lasting effect.
4. Death save rules are too lenient (even if I say this as the guy who managed to die in 5e).
5. There are also several places where the rules are far too separated from the fiction they are supposed to represent. An example of this I have in mind is how ghosts take half damage from non-magical, non-blessed weapons. In 2e, for reference, a silver weapon would cause half damage, and a magic one would do full damage. But otherwise, they would harmlessly pass through the creature. And spells from creatures not in the ethereal plane would likewise pass right through him.

In the end, with a good DM the game can still be a whole lot of fun. If your options are either playing 5e or nothing at all, then I would definitely choose 5e. But it could be much better than it is.

I don't know about death saves – if you've got a decent DM, you're going to be dying like flies, death saves or not. TPKs are nothing uncommon in my games. The spells I understand, though it sounds like a balancing issue – letting you spam concentration spells, or making them last months, would make spellcasters overpowered compared to other classes, no?

 

[Larianshill]

1. Almost all duration spells are based on concentration, and that means you can only have one such spell on at any time. This greatly reduces the kind of creative use of spells and mixing and matching of buffs you could do in previous editions.
2. Many magic items require "attunement" which seems some kind of silly mmo rule to limit the usefulness of hoarding stuff.
3. Many of the spells are greatly reduced in usefulness from previous editions. Charm person, for instance, can only be used for an hour at best, whereas in 2e it could last months against a dimmer creature, and even weeks against a normal intelligence one that nevertheless had bad saves (like most people without levels are likely to). This problem tends to be somewhat ameliorated on high level spells (7th and up) but low level spells are specifically made so they don't have much lasting effect.

All of those are good things.

 

[Reinhardt]

men in dresses should suffer

 

[Ninjerk]

men in dresses should suffer

Cryomancer are you going to sit here and listen to this?!

 

[Cryomancer]

What's so bad about it?

IS not 2E.

2E is the best.

• No "cr 2" monsters capable of soaking cannon balls like on 5e.
• Low easy to track numbers
• Class diversity with kits
• Class restrictions on races. Eg - Manlets like Dwarves, Hobbits halflings can't be glorious magic users
• The best settings was written for 2e. Mystara? Dark Sun? Ravenloft/Domains of Dread? Spelljammer? Planescape? A lot of glorious iconic settings comes on 2e. After WoTC bought D&D, the unique memorable setting that we got is Eberron.
• Kits instead of prestige classes
• No BS tier / power spikes
• Multiclass is discouraged.

Source : https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/why-d-d-2e-is-the-best-edition-ever.138042/

All of those are good things.

No, are not.

Concentration is not an bad mechanic, but GURPS implemented it in a much better way. About attunement the problem is that the limit is the same for an lv 20 fighter and an lv 0 commoner. Thanks to this two mechanics, many extremely deadly enemy abilities had to be nerfed.

men in dresses should suffer

Cryomancer are you going to sit here and listen to this?!

He can't differentiate magical robes with the dresses that his master enchanter forces him to wear...

Jokes aside, I wish that D&D magic was a bit different. Like more risky. If you try to throw explosive fireball with low throw skill in GURPS, you can hit yourself. Many large scale artillery spells would require much ""rounds"" to cast, certain high level spells in D&D could work in an similar way. When D&D initially launched, there was no tier 7/8/9 spells and the initial idea is that such spells would be "rituals". So instead of meteor swarm being an spell which someone can cast in 6 seconds, would be an archmage, lots of reagents and his apprentices using it to nuke an orc army and the party could be in charge of protecting him or assassinating himwhile he is casting.