D&D 5E Discussion

[Alex]

The artificer class was a mistake.

Edit: But then again, so was 5e.

 

[Bara]

Well judging by the new UA looks like Planescapes next up to be 5e'd

Weird they don't just call the glitching a rogue modron. Apparently wotc is specifically saying their no modron's in some interview somewhere.

But I'm basing this belief planescape is next from this line of text

You have spent significant time in Sigil or elsewhere in the Outlands, the crossroads of the multiverse

And the fact Spelljamemr is already on its way.

No optimism at all for this after what they did with the Ravenloft book but if we're lucky when Spelljammer is released and this Planescape book comes out there will be enough third party content to salvage what ever mess they make.

 

[Alex]

All the third party content I need is for second edition... And written by TSR.

 

[Bara]

I get the sentiment but calling TSR third party comes off a little odd to read.

But yes the 2e books are definitely better setting source books to run games off from than anything newer.

Its just nice to have some one else do the work of any mechanical conversions if needed.

Which wotc is so far failing at when they didn't bother to stat out the Dark Lords of ravenloft. Just stuck with the 2e domains of dread book at that point and just got a cheep 3rd party book on the dmsguild stating them out.

 

[Caim]

Ways the Grand Wizards of the Coast are going to fuck up Planescape:

- The Lady of Pain is now some kind of mastermind Machiavellian ruler of the city who speaks with the city's hoi polloi behind closed doors. Nobody talks about this in public or private.
- Just about every named character from the setting is either gone, dead, or not mentioned. A'kin the Friendly Fiend was found murdered some time ago, Shemeshka the Marauder is now the city's true King of the Crosstrade (and is now also trans), and her daughter Kylie is her estranged daughter who's being groomed by her mother to become her heir, but she doesn't want to give up her independent lifestyle with her having many girlfriends all over the city.
- The problematic Factions have been destroyed or turned into villains. Only the ones like the Indeps, Revolutionaries, Sensates and the like are open for players.
- The Outlands no longer mess with magic: only at the base of the Spire all magic and combat is blocked for some reason making it a place of true neutrality. All of its other quirks have been neutered or written out.
- The parts of the Outer Planes that are icky have been cut. The Harmonium has been booted from Arcadia and now it's ruled by ant people, Pandemonium no longer turns you insane, Hades no longer turns you into an NPC, Acheron won't shred you with volleys of slivers of rock or kill you by being BLOCKED.com, Ysgardians won't kill you for being dishonorable and so on.
- Tieflings. SO MANY TIEFLINGS.
- Very few Aasimar though.
- The Elemental Planes as locations have turned from inhospitable at best and save or die at worst to theme park locations. Fire Land! Water Land! Ice Land! Lightning Land! Vacuum Land! That one magic item from the DMG that protects you from all these effects are ubiquitous.
- The Astral and Ethereal... uh, people barely gave a shit in the earlier editions so why should they start now?
- The Ordial Plane is now canon.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

The artificer class was a mistake.

Edit: But then again, so was 5e.

artificer is the iconic 3.5e class from when they made eberron the main campaign setting

prior to that it was a mage specialist iirc

 

[JamesDixon]

prior to that it was a mage specialist iirc

I don't see it listed for AD&D 2E. I don't believe it was in AD&D 1E either, but Zed Duke of Banville might know since his knowledge is greater than mine.

 

[Alex]

prior to that it was a mage specialist iirc

I don't see it listed for AD&D 2E. I don't believe it was in AD&D 1E either, but Zed Duke of Banville might know since his knowledge is greater than mine.

The mage specialist that made magic items was the enchanter, wasn't it?

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

prior to that it was a mage specialist iirc

I don't see it listed for AD&D 2E. I don't believe it was in AD&D 1E either, but Zed Duke of Banville might know since his knowledge is greater than mine.

The mage specialist that made magic items was the enchanter, wasn't it?

In AD&D 2nd edition, charm and enchant spells were grouped together as a charm/enchantment school, though this didn't particularly make sense, since the former affect the minds of living beings, whereas the latter affect the properties of objects and have a lot of overlap with alteration. For that matter, the spells in this school that are enchantments seem heavily outnumbered by the ones that are charms. PHBR4 The Complete Wizard's Handbook termed a specialist of this school an enchanter but required them to have a minimum charisma of 16, which of course makes sense for charm spells and not at all for enchantments. The Dungeon Master's Guide contained rules for the creation of magical items by wizards; I don't think there was any suggestion either in the DMG or in PHBR4 that enchanters should receive a bonus to this or that some other type of specialist should receive a penalty.

In AD&D 1st edition, there is also an enchantment/charm school of magic, but enchantment in this respect seems to be just another name for charm. The Enchanted Weapon spell is alteration rather than enchantment/charm as in 2nd edition, and similarly the Enchant an Item spell is conjuration/summoning but was also moved to enchantment/charm in 2nd edition. There are a few enchantment/charm spells that affect non-living or mindless objects, which might have been the inspiration for 2nd edition to expand this school by defining enchantment separately from charm.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Zed Duke of Banville forcing me to dig out the splatbooks

Artificer: The school of artifice is composed of spells that store or channel
magical energy through items carried by the wizard. In effect, the artificer is a wizard
who creates temporary magical items for his own use. The advantages of this
thaumaturgical method lie in the wizard’s ability to increase his spell power by carrying
extra spells in various magical items and to unleash powerful enchantments with a single
command word. A wizard must have an Intelligence (Intelligence/Knowledge) of 12 and
a Constitution of 15 (Constitution/ Health) in order to choose this specialty. The school of
artifice is opposed by the school of necromancy and those spells in the school of
enchantment/charm which affect living beings.
Like the alchemist, the artificer must maintain a well-equipped laboratory and
workshop. A 1st-level artificer begins play with a suitable facility in his base of
operations. Building a new laboratory costs at least 1,000 gp per character level, and
existing laboratories cost 50 gp per level to maintain each month. An artificer without a
laboratory loses access to the bonus spell provided by specialization, and can’t conduct
research, make magical items, or add new spells to his spell book.
Artificers have the normal benefits and restrictions of specialist wizards, but have
no saving throw modifiers and impose no saving throw penalties on the targets of their
spells. At 4th level, the artificer gains the ability to store spells in prepared items, saving
his memorization slots for other spells. Once placed in an item, a stored spell may be
indefinitely retained for ready casting. The spell to be stored must be one which the
wizard knows and can cast; at any given time, a wizard may have no more total spell
levels stored than his own character level, so a 5th-level artificer could store up to five
levels of spells.
Preparing an item to receive one stored spell requires one uninterrupted week of
work, and the actual process of casting the spell into the item requires one day and 500 gp
per level of the spell. The item must be of the finest workmanship, worth at least 100 gp;
after the spell it holds has been discharged, the artificer can re-enchant it. Only the
artificer may release the stored spell, with a casting time of 1; in all other respects the
spell is treated as if the artificer had cast it normally. Also, an item can only contain one
spell at a time. Any attempt to cast another spell into the item will simply replace the
current spell. In effect, this ability allows the artificer to create one-shot magical items
such as a ring enchanted with feather fall or a cloak prepared with protection from
normal missiles.
At 7th level, the artificer may create a temporary magical item. Any magical item
in the DMG not specifically restricted to nonwizards is allowed, but the item will
function only for the artificer. This is a special ability unrelated to the enchant an item
spell. First, the artificer must successfully research the item creation process, taking one
week per 500 XP value of the item and spending at least 100 gp per week. This time is
halved if the artificer has a sample of the item to copy or if he succeeds in a contact other
plane, legend lore, or other research spell. The artificer must pass a learn spells check to
succeed and may never know the processes for more magical items than his maximum
number of spells per level. Actually building and enchanting the item requires half the
research time and 2d6 x 100 gp, plus the cost of the item itself. Fine materials must be
used, but rare and exotic materials and processes aren’t necessary for temporary items
(see Chapter 7). After completing the work, the artificer must pass another learn spells
check to successfully enchant the temporary item.
A temporary item lasts 1d6 days, plus one day per level of the artificer. Once the
enchantment fades, the item can be re-enchanted with one uninterrupted week of work,
the expenditure of 2d6 x 100 gp, and another learn spells check. If the temporary item
normally possesses charges, the artificer automatically places one charge per level into
the item when creating it.
Artificers may create permanent magical items using the normal magical item
creation rules and the enchant an item spell when they reach the appropriate levels. (If an
artificer creates a true magical item he once made a temporary version of, his research
time and expense is reduced to its minimum value—see Chapter 7.) Artificers gain a
+10% bonus to their chance to successfully enchant items.
In addition, artificers have a 20% chance at 1st level to identify the general
purpose and function of any magical item simply by examining it for one full turn. This is
similar to the bard’s ability, but is based on the artificer’s ability to analyze the
construction and enchantments on the item, not the item’s historical significance. This
chance increases by 5% per level, so a 5th-level artificer can identify items with a 40%
chance of success.
While artificers are fairly weak at first, once they reach middle levels they can
quickly become some of the most useful and powerful wizards in the game. The DM
should always consider the artificer’s proposed item research and construction very
carefully; any item that the DM feels is too powerful or out-of-character can be
disallowed. In particular, items with absorption or negation powers should be considered
very carefully—these can be very unbalancing in a game

player's option: spells & magic
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Player's_Option:_Spells_&_Magic

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

The Player's Option: Skills & Powers rulebook released in 1995 detailed four new specialist wizards that have "developed alternate styles of spellcasting and spell organization": the alchemist, geometer, shadow mage, and song wizard.

The Player's Option: Spells & Magic rulebook released in 1996 defined schools of thaumaturgy as "a specific method or procedure of spellcasting that varies from the standard execution of a spell's components". Alchemy, Geometry, and Song were now joined by Artifice and Wild Magic (this last had been described earlier in The Tome of Magic and IIRC originated even earlier in Forgotten Realms campaign setting material). This book also defined schools of effect as "differ[ing] from schools of philosophy [regular schools of magic] in that the spells of the school all share one common result or ingredient". Elementalists described in the Tome of Magic and Shadow Mages described in Skills & Powers were joined by Dimensional Magic and Force.

TSR went bankrupt the following year.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

geometer

We talkin' Pythagorean theorems or Aristotelian geology?

 

[0wca]

Well judging by the new UA looks like Planescapes next up to be 5e'd

Weird they don't just call the glitching a rogue modron. Apparently wotc is specifically saying their no modron's in some interview somewhere.

But I'm basing this belief planescape is next from this line of text

You have spent significant time in Sigil or elsewhere in the Outlands, the crossroads of the multiverse

And the fact Spelljamemr is already on its way.

No optimism at all for this after what they did with the Ravenloft book but if we're lucky when Spelljammer is released and this Planescape book comes out there will be enough third party content to salvage what ever mess they make.

I ran a 2 year campaign in Planescape using 5e's system as a base. There's already a series of books on the DM's guild called the Codex of the Infinite Planes which basically gives a rundown of each plane and coverts mechanics and stat blocks to 5e.

It costs 1-3€, but I found the editions on The Trove, when it was still up. As for the Sigil stuff you can just use 2e as a reference and I believe someone did a 5e conversion somewhere online.

So as far as I'm concerned you can already run Planescape in 5e without waiting on WotC to water it down.

 

[JamesDixon]

player's option: spells & magic

Thanks for finding that and sharing. The more you know.

I never used the Players Options books.

 

[Alex]

(...snip)

The mage specialist that made magic items was the enchanter, wasn't it?

In AD&D 2nd edition, charm and enchant spells were grouped together as a charm/enchantment school, though this didn't particularly make sense, since the former affect the minds of living beings, whereas the latter affect the properties of objects and have a lot of overlap with alteration.

I actually liked that; made the enchantment school seem more interesting and mysterious. There is no reason why the same principle, when applied to living beings, can cause or control emotions while when applied to inanimate objects could create magical items. I mean, one of the reasons I like AD&D's magic schools is exactly because they aren't straightforward like "fire", "water", "mind", "body", etc. Straightforward can be good too, I would argue GURPS probably has one of the best implementations of this approach. But part of the charm of D&D spells is exactly doing the exact opposite of that, at least for me. Also, as a side note, I never even thought of "charm" and "enchantment" as different things. Possibly because they would translate into the same word in portuguese.

For that matter, the spells in this school that are enchantments seem heavily outnumbered by the ones that are charms.

Very true, which I think is a bit of a missed opportunity.

PHBR4 The Complete Wizard's Handbook termed a specialist of this school an enchanter but required them to have a minimum charisma of 16, which of course makes sense for charm spells and not at all for enchantments.

Which, I think, is a bit silly. Why are you bothering messing with magic if you are already naturally "charming". I never liked the idea of having charisma somehow link to magic, with possibly the exception of bard magic since it would be natural to think this is done through music.

The Dungeon Master's Guide contained rules for the creation of magical items by wizards; I don't think there was any suggestion either in the DMG or in PHBR4 that enchanters should receive a bonus to this or that some other type of specialist should receive a penalty.

True. It is just that since I didn't know about the specialist from Spells & Magic, I didn't think there was anything closer to a mage specialised in making magic items. A few specialists did, however, technically lose access to making magic items since the invoker and the necromancer both can't use the enchantment school, which means they can't learn the magic item and the magic weapon spell. I guess they could still write spell scrolls and brew potions, though. And the abjurer, by losing access to alteration, couldn't cast permanency.

Personally, I rather like that creating magic items in old D&D is done with standard spells (at least to a point) rather than with special abilities, as it became the norm in 3e. In particular, I thought DCC RPG took this approach in a successful way. You could make the schools even more interesting by having different types of magic items associated with different schools. For instance, potions and fantastical materials could be the realm of alteration. Rings, ioun stones and magic weapons and armour could be the realm of enchantment. Intelligent magic items could require some summoning spell. Runes and glyphs could be the realm of abjuration, etc.

In AD&D 1st edition, there is also an enchantment/charm school of magic, but enchantment in this respect seems to be just another name for charm. The Enchanted Weapon spell is alteration rather than enchantment/charm as in 2nd edition, and similarly the Enchant an Item spell is conjuration/summoning but was also moved to enchantment/charm in 2nd edition. There are a few enchantment/charm spells that affect non-living or mindless objects, which might have been the inspiration for 2nd edition to expand this school by defining enchantment separately from charm.

I didn't know that, thanks!

 

[Alex]

Zed Duke of Banville forcing me to dig out the splatbooks
(snip...)

Thanks for digging that out, rusty. I admit I thoguht you were just mixing up things.

Also, I really hate stuff like this:

At 7th level, the artificer may create a temporary magical item. Any magical item
in the DMG not specifically restricted to nonwizards is allowed, but the item will
function only for the artificer. This is a special ability unrelated to the enchant an item
spell. First, the artificer must successfully research the item creation process, taking one
week per 500 XP value of the item and spending at least 100 gp per week. This time is
halved if the artificer has a sample of the item to copy or if he succeeds in a contact other
plane, legend lore, or other research spell. The artificer must pass a learn spells check to
succeed and may never know the processes for more magical items than his maximum
number of spells per level. Actually building and enchanting the item requires half the
research time and 2d6 x 100 gp, plus the cost of the item itself. Fine materials must be
used, but rare and exotic materials and processes aren’t necessary for temporary items
(see Chapter 7). After completing the work, the artificer must pass another learn spells
check to successfully enchant the temporary item.
A temporary item lasts 1d6 days, plus one day per level of the artificer. Once the
enchantment fades, the item can be re-enchanted with one uninterrupted week of work,
the expenditure of 2d6 x 100 gp, and another learn spells check. If the temporary item
normally possesses charges, the artificer automatically places one charge per level into
the item when creating it.

Not that a temporary magic item is necessarily a bat thing. But this tries to bend the idea too much into something that is just a character ability, with the item only working for the artificer (or maybe they just didn't want players selling fake magic items). I saw something similar in that Pathfinder 2e book where the alchemist could make a bunch of potions, but it only worked while he didn't create a new one and a series of other limitations that made it not into a real potion but a character ability. I guess this one isn't nearly that bad, but it is interesting to see this was already present in 2e, even if it was near the very end.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Eberron artificer(that is, 3.5e artificer) was unique so it's weird to see them having so much trouble adapting it to 5e & trying to shoehorn it as a wizard specialization after it was already well fleshed out prior.
I guess because it doesn't fit into FR? But that just seems silly.

 

[JamesDixon]

Eberron artificer(that is, 3.5e artificer) was unique so it's weird to see them having so much trouble adapting it to 5e & trying to shoehorn it as a wizard specialization after it was already well fleshed out prior.
I guess because it doesn't fit into FR? But that just seems silly.

It's because the current employees are morons as a result of an education system designed to make them morons.

 

[deuxhero]

5E Artifcer is an attempt to force a class designed around a single setting in 3.5 into a system designed around the players not having any actual options. This makes it weird and, like everything else in the system, shit.

 

[Bara]

I don't have a source for this but apparently there was enough feedback that wotc capitulated and gave the Giff proficiency with firearms as a race.

But apparently they're now saying its because their god made them that way and not because their culture has developed a love of them? Which if true I don't understand how its better in the quest not to offend some one but hey Giff get firearms baked in again.

 

[Larianshill]

Aren't orcs evil because their god made them that way?

 

[Morblot]

Aren't orcs evil because their god made them that way?

Stop being racist!

 

[Larianshill]

I will not.

 

[Tarkleigh]

Ways the Grand Wizards of the Coast are going to fuck up Planescape:

- The Lady of Pain is now some kind of mastermind Machiavellian ruler of the city who speaks with the city's hoi polloi behind closed doors. Nobody talks about this in public or private.
- Just about every named character from the setting is either gone, dead, or not mentioned. A'kin the Friendly Fiend was found murdered some time ago, Shemeshka the Marauder is now the city's true King of the Crosstrade (and is now also trans), and her daughter Kylie is her estranged daughter who's being groomed by her mother to become her heir, but she doesn't want to give up her independent lifestyle with her having many girlfriends all over the city.
- The problematic Factions have been destroyed or turned into villains. Only the ones like the Indeps, Revolutionaries, Sensates and the like are open for players.
- The Outlands no longer mess with magic: only at the base of the Spire all magic and combat is blocked for some reason making it a place of true neutrality. All of its other quirks have been neutered or written out.
- The parts of the Outer Planes that are icky have been cut. The Harmonium has been booted from Arcadia and now it's ruled by ant people, Pandemonium no longer turns you insane, Hades no longer turns you into an NPC, Acheron won't shred you with volleys of slivers of rock or kill you by being BLOCKED.com, Ysgardians won't kill you for being dishonorable and so on.
- Tieflings. SO MANY TIEFLINGS.
- Very few Aasimar though.
- The Elemental Planes as locations have turned from inhospitable at best and save or die at worst to theme park locations. Fire Land! Water Land! Ice Land! Lightning Land! Vacuum Land! That one magic item from the DMG that protects you from all these effects are ubiquitous.
- The Astral and Ethereal... uh, people barely gave a shit in the earlier editions so why should they start now?
- The Ordial Plane is now canon.

This all sounds extremely right

I really liked Tieflings (and Aasimars) back in the days but just like drow they have become unplayable as everyone and their mom plays a Chaotic Good Tiefling just to be edgy. What is interesting is that this does not seem to happen to half-orcs, maybe because they are not sexy enough for these kind of players (or maybe they are verboten now because SJWs have convinced themselves Orcs are code for black people).

 

[Alex]

Caim, I am not even interested in what WotC is making right now. And the stuff you mention is mostly horrible. But still...

(...snip)
- The Lady of Pain is now some kind of mastermind Machiavellian ruler of the city who speaks with the city's hoi polloi behind closed doors. Nobody talks about this in public or private.
(snip...)

I never liked the Lady of Pain in the original. I get that it is nice to have a mystery, but I rather hate empty mysteries, and they obviously were never going to do anything with her. At least having her be an actual character might make it more fun.

Also,

(...snip)
- The Astral and Ethereal... uh, people barely gave a shit in the earlier editions so why should they start now?

Astral and ethereal both have very good potential and it is a pity they weren't developed better. I for one wished they did get more attention... but not from WotC.

- The Ordial Plane is now canon.
(snip...)

I have a vague memory of this, wasn't it supposed to be the match for astral and ethereal in the rule of three? Never understood what you would make of it, though.

By the way, is all this a prediction or something they have confirmed they are doing? Either way, I hope that spelljammer book is just canned, just leave us giff alone.