Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

D&D 5E Discussion

nikolokolus

Arcane
Joined
May 8, 2013
Messages
4,090
I want to run these fucking idiots through a Call of Cthulhu scenario and watch them try to reason with a bunch Innsmouth cultists, seconds before their entrails are pulled out and they perish on an altar to Dagon.

P-p-p-roble-m-m-m-atic!
 
Last edited:

deuxhero

Arcane
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Messages
11,989
Location
Flowery Land
Whole idea of non-playable races being something more than shit to kill has been very cancerous.

Eberron is the only time it works because it counter balances it by making virtually every organization of consequence in the setting a potential adversary depending on what story the DM wants to tell, and the details help distinguish the foes. There's only one militarized group (the Silver Flame) that is both national level or higher in size and explicitly Good aligned, but they're relatively easy to trick and have several corrupt sects.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
17,089
Location
Frostfell
Anyone here played 5E in a "older edition" setting? Dark Sun, Eberron, Mystara, Birthright, etc? Can you share your thoughts. I an curious. Only watched a 5E stream of Dark Sun and din't liked...
 

Rean

Head Codexian Weeb
Patron
Joined
Nov 14, 2020
Messages
2,166
Strap Yourselves In
Hopefully sometime in the next few decades you'll realize the system used means almost nothing.
This is the tabletop forum, not some gay 'CRPG' make-pretend.

The 'RP' part of 'RPG' can operate under any circumstance.

Stop watching 'streams' and fucking play.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
17,089
Location
Frostfell
Hopefully sometime in the next few decades you'll realize the system used means almost nothing.

Yep. No difference between playing Dark Sun on 2E and on 4E. 2E is not far more brutal and consistent with the lore hence more immersive /sarcasm. Now seriously, I just asked to see how different things are and what rule adaptation they made to make 5E in different settings.

If I wanna use 5E to play a Conan setting, I would need to change a lot of rules. Eg :
  • Starting level = 0 instead of 1
  • No HP gain on short rest
  • All healing spells would take long minutes and be cast as rituals cuz healing magic on Conan universe is far less strong
  • No elves, dragonborn and other high fantasy races. Instead we would have Stygian, Hyperborean, etc.
  • NO wizards, no druids, no sorcerers, only warlocks and clerics. One which worships a outsider deity and other which bargain with outsider forces for magical knowledge.
  • Warlocks would be INT based and have way more limited spell selection.
  • Leveling as a Warlock would require tasks for your outsider "patron", not only XP.
  • Clerics will be forced to do church tasks
  • Different subclasses. Prests would have completely different deities to chose from. Mitra and Set are two examples.
  • No high level stuff. Conan the Barbarian would be a lv 9~12 Barbarian. Thot Amon, a lv 9~12 warlock who learns magic from Set and this guys would be the strongest guys in the world.
  • Magical weapons would be far less common
  • Barbarians would get more "maneuvers", able to decapitate enemies.
  • Backgrounds would change too. Ex slave, slave trader, etc.
  • (...)
See, this types of rule alterations is what I am curious about.
 

SoupNazi

Guest
Hopefully sometime in the next few decades you'll realize the system used means almost nothing.

Yep. No difference between playing Dark Sun on 2E and on 4E. 2E is not far more brutal and consistent with the lore hence more immersive /sarcasm. Now seriously, I just asked to see how different things are and what rule adaptation they made to make 5E in different settings.

If I wanna use 5E to play a Conan setting, I would need to change a lot of rules. Eg :
  • Starting level = 0 instead of 1
  • No HP gain on short rest
  • All healing spells would take long minutes and be cast as rituals cuz healing magic on Conan universe is far less strong
  • No elves, dragonborn and other high fantasy races. Instead we would have Stygian, Hyperborean, etc.
  • NO wizards, no druids, no sorcerers, only warlocks and clerics. One which worships a outsider deity and other which bargain with outsider forces for magical knowledge.
  • Warlocks would be INT based and have way more limited spell selection.
  • Leveling as a Warlock would require tasks for your outsider "patron", not only XP.
  • Clerics will be forced to do church tasks
  • Different subclasses. Prests would have completely different deities to chose from. Mitra and Set are two examples.
  • No high level stuff. Conan the Barbarian would be a lv 9~12 Barbarian. Thot Amon, a lv 9~12 warlock who learns magic from Set and this guys would be the strongest guys in the world.
  • Magical weapons would be far less common
  • Barbarians would get more "maneuvers", able to decapitate enemies.
  • Backgrounds would change too. Ex slave, slave trader, etc.
  • (...)
See, this types of rule alterations is what I am curious about.
Hey Vic

you're confusing "setting" and "rulebook" bro in about half of those points lol
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
17,089
Location
Frostfell
you're confusing "setting" and "rulebook" bro in about half of those points lol

No, just saying that one(setting) needs to be consistent with another(rules). That is my point. A lv 20 dragonborn cleric of the Raven Queen doesn't belong to a conan setting. Cuz dragonborns doesn't exist in that setting, nor Raven Queen. If I an DMing, I would allow a PC to play as a Mul Gladiator in a dark sun campaign, but if we are talking about it on a Netherese campaign, it would't make any sense.

Game mechanics needs to be in line with the fantasy that you are trying to convey. The domains of dread for 2E has a long list of spell alterations to make then more dangerous in the realms of dread and consistent with the "negativity" of the campaign setting.
 

Rean

Head Codexian Weeb
Patron
Joined
Nov 14, 2020
Messages
2,166
Strap Yourselves In
Christ on a fuckin stick, I'll respond properly as soon as I'm not drunk, but rest assured I already see the same problems with Vic's posts as always.
You're treating this all as if it's a videogame, STILL.

... it's not.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
17,089
Location
Frostfell
You're treating this all as if it's a videogame, STILL.

Yep. Treating as video game, because I wanna consistency of the fantasy of the tabletop game and the rules. Lets play 4E which doesn't care about it, the "role playing" and "game" should be in two completely distinct universes, otherwise is a video game. GURPS is the most video gamey of all TT games. You can have the same experience playing the The Call of Cthulhu in GURPS and in D&D 4e. /sarcasm
 

Rean

Head Codexian Weeb
Patron
Joined
Nov 14, 2020
Messages
2,166
Strap Yourselves In
You're going about this the wrong way around, trying to extrapolate the limitations of videogames into tabletop.
People don't play tabletop to be restricted by such autism.
What 'consistency'? The only consistency that matters is the GM's rulings and how you play.

I wish I could say I've never seen behavior like this before, but I have. You're not meant for tabletop. Please PLEASE stay away from it. I'd never want to be in the place of the GM who has to go through the process of interviewing a character like you.
I don't understand what you're doing in this forum.

STICK
TO
VIDEOGAMES
 

SoupNazi

Guest
But that's the thing, Victor --

one(setting) needs to be consistent with another(rules).

If this were true by design, and the GM was as unimportant / unwilling to work with it as you seem to think, then you'd need to have about a bambillion rulesets for each of the bambillion settings. And sure, some settings are easier to adapt, some more difficult - that's just the nature of things. And setting X, which might be your favorite, just so happens to be easier to do in 2E, but setting Y is favored by other people, and 5E might be better suited. Or vice versa, or none of the "modern" editions are suitable, and you need OSR because your setting is so "unique" and OSR is probably the easiest to adjust. I'm running a game on a ruleset called "B/X Tall Tales". Guess what, it's absolutely incompatible with any sort of fantasy, because it's aiming to be a (mostly) realistic adaptation of the Wild West, with some skills and potions and "spells" (just not called that) to simulate "heroes" (whole point of TTRPGs). Does that make it a bad ruleset because I can't easily adapt it to play in 1600s Europe with firearms and dragons? No, it just means I can probably find a better module/rulebook for that, or I can combine two to run it.

I like you, dude, and you often bring up valid points that are worthy of discussion, but you really need to take a second turn or even a third to think about this concept, because you're completely wrong. Rean is completely right here, except for his inflammatory language (and being drunk is no excuse bud, I'm drunk myself) - it's all up to the players and the GM, and yes, some rulebooks are more suitable than others, but it is not a valid criticism of rulebook X that it doesn't work as well with setting Y as rulebook Z. That just doesn't make sense, and if I was poor, got the 5E rulebooks for Christmas, and had a group that wanted to play a low-fantasy setting, I would easily be able to adapt the rulebook to run it if I had no other option. Does that mean there are other rulesets that'd be a better fit? Yes. Does that make 5E a universally bad system? Fuck no.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
17,089
Location
Frostfell
What 'consistency'? The only consistency that matters is the GM's rulings and how you play.

Consistency is one thing in line with another. A fireball which draws the power from the plane of fire lore wise but deals cold damage is inconsistent.

I just asked the experience of someone playing iconic 2E settings with a modern ruleset and see how they handled certain things by curiosity and you who never played any edition besides 5E, start to talk as if any form of ruling to have consistency of mechanics and lore is "video game limitations". 2E D&D had racial limitations for certain classes. Had different rules for casting in different "areas", being a Preserver in Dark Sun and being a Wizard in the Feywild are completely different experiences. And even gender locking some kits when it makes sense. The Netherese : Empire of Magic has casting working in a completely different way to make things consistent with the lore.

Video games are each time more awful because each time they care less and less about the cosnistency of the game and the lore. Look to mmos, are all about cooldown managing gear farming due it. Look to JRPG's, I never liked any one of then due the same reason.

then you'd need to have about a bambillion rulesets for each of the bambillion settings.

And that is what happens.

The defilers and preservers is a 93 page book only to make arcane magic more in line with Athas lore for 2E. And this not touching psionics which are a huge Athas part. Here is a adaptation of 5E to Harry Potter universe. A lot of alterations on rules too > https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-LsXE64qLDdLgBczM2kA

I asked that question because 5E is too focused on Sword Coast.

But yes, for Rean, not wanting a dragonborn priest of Lolth in a Lovecraftian setting is """video game limitation"""". The book Domais of dread is a video game. Defilers and preservers too. A video game.

I am playing a OSR game and we will try a one shot of Ship of Horrors. I will DM a edition other than 3rd edition for the first time and yes, I already said to the party that many spells will work differently in that setting. I don't care if the "jrpg avatar" thinks that Domains of Dread book is a video game.
 

Mortmal

Arcane
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
9,512
You're treating this all as if it's a videogame, STILL.

Yep. Treating as video game, because I wanna consistency of the fantasy of the tabletop game and the rules. Lets play 4E which doesn't care about it, the "role playing" and "game" should be in two completely distinct universes, otherwise is a video game. GURPS is the most video gamey of all TT games. You can have the same experience playing the The Call of Cthulhu in GURPS and in D&D 4e. /sarcasm
Dude, you buy FGU, you join the discord there https://discord.gg/GB5nRZfS and try to apply to some sessions. There's all kind of rulesets possible if the most popular are 5E then pathfinder , at worse i could even DM for you if you are able to play reliably the sunday at 20 PM GMT+2 or the wednesday as its summer some people are of.
I cant say it better than rean, stop watching streams , play and experiment , what you are doing right now is unhealthy.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
17,089
Location
Frostfell
Sorry if seems like I was criticizing 5E I just asked if someone used that ruleset for a different setting and the experiences. I would love to read about settings such as Dark Sun on 5E, or Eberron on 5E, how they handled certain things, such as defiler destruction if DMing in that setting, the wild west setting from Soup for EG, really wanna to know how lever action rifles and revolvers are handled, how mages reacted to introduction of firearms and things like that. If someone played Conan on 5E, which classes and races the DM allowed and which homebrew rules he used. This type of thing. How playing Conan on 5E as a Priest of Mitra was in the session zero. that type of thing.

This "rule autism" was not my intention and I am really sorry about that. 5E was never made to be a ultra flexible system. It was made to be accessible as possible and 5E is the best edition in that aspect hence is the most popular by a huge margin.

My intention was just to read a bit of adventures made in more "rare" settings.
 

mediocrepoet

Philosoraptor in Residence
Patron
Joined
Sep 30, 2009
Messages
13,619
Location
Combatfag: Gold box / Pathfinder
Codex 2012 Codex+ Now Streaming! MCA Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
Sorry if seems like I was criticizing 5E I just asked if someone used that ruleset for a different setting and the experiences. I would love to read about settings such as Dark Sun on 5E, or Eberron on 5E, how they handled certain things, such as defiler destruction if DMing in that setting, the wild west setting from Soup for EG, really wanna to know how lever action rifles and revolvers are handled, how mages reacted to introduction of firearms and things like that. If someone played Conan on 5E, which classes and races the DM allowed and which homebrew rules he used. This type of thing. How playing Conan on 5E as a Priest of Mitra was in the session zero. that type of thing.

This "rule autism" was not my intention and I am really sorry about that. 5E was never made to be a ultra flexible system. It was made to be accessible as possible and 5E is the best edition in that aspect hence is the most popular by a huge margin.

My intention was just to read a bit of adventures made in more "rare" settings.

This post clarifies things, but it really doesn't seem like the thrust of your original posts.

In any case, a large part of the issue is that second edition AD&D wasn't ultra flexible either. Dark Sun had a whole host of setting specific rules changes for classes, races, magic, equipment, etc. as you've noted. So did DragonLance, and Birthright, and any setting that wasn't generic or considered to be a baseline setting (see Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk). In order to play any of those settings in 5E or any other edition, you'd have to do your own rules conversion if an official one doesn't exist.

Other than that, as posters have mentioned, different editions and different rulesets really are more suited for different styles of games. I loved playing West End Games' D6 Star Wars RPG, the D20 Star Wars RPG's were various iterations of D&D in Space - although the later ones were somewhat less terrible with some of their rules customizations.

And really, the most important thing you should bear in mind for tabletop discussions is rule zero. The GM has final say. The "no dragonborn in Conan" comment is irrelevant because no GM who's actually running Conan is going to let you bring a Dragonborn to the table in the first place. You can't worship Bahamut (or whatever) because that God doesn't exist in the setting. And so on. That doesn't mean there needs to be a different rule set, it simply means that there are changes in the setting source "book", even if that "book" is just in the GM's and players' minds as a shared agreement of what's going on at the table for that campaign.

The entire reason a TTRPG is flexible is that you don't have to codify and write everything down. That requirement is why CRPGs will never be the same as a TTRPG without the development of a true AI to run it.
 

SoupNazi

Guest
The fact that the system barely matters, and it's primarily the DM and players who make the game, is a hill I'll die on if needed. :bunkertime:
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
17,089
Location
Frostfell
I prefer to be clear with my players about what is allowed and what isn't. Because otherwise, it can frustrate the players. I also strongly disagree that the system barely matters. IMO the system is so important as a good DM. Doubt? Try to play Dark Sun on 2E, 3E or 5E with same DM, same group. Spoiler : The 4E game will fell more like Generic wow clone : tabletop edition than a proper D&D game.
 

SoupNazi

Guest
I prefer to be clear with my players about what is allowed and what isn't. Because otherwise, it can frustrate the players. I also strongly disagree that the system barely matters. IMO the system is so important as a good DM. Doubt? Try to play Dark Sun on 2E, 3E or 5E with same DM, same group. Spoiler : The 4E game will fell more like Generic wow clone : tabletop edition than a proper D&D game.
Are you just bullshitting about playing actual games with actual people, Vic? Or are your DMs really that bad?

Because this part
I prefer to be clear with my players about what is allowed and what isn't.
Is obvious, you just say "Here's the rulebook we're playing, and here's the setting. X, Y and Z from the setting/rulebook are incompatible, and we won't be using them. Read through both please, just ignore these few things."

Like, it's part of the actual process.

The problem with what you keep yapping about is that you keep using this argument to criticize the system, when it's in no way the system's fault. It's made for some kind of high-ish fantasy setting with lots of races and characters who become demigod. It can also easily be downscaled or upscaled with 1 hour of prep. The system does affect things, but criticizing a system for it not being compatible with your chosen system is dumbfuckery. 5E has a bunch of other things that can be criticized, but this argument that you seemingly keep going on and on about is completely irrelevant.
 

Mortmal

Arcane
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
9,512
I prefer to be clear with my players about what is allowed and what isn't. Because otherwise, it can frustrate the players. I also strongly disagree that the system barely matters. IMO the system is so important as a good DM. Doubt? Try to play Dark Sun on 2E, 3E or 5E with same DM, same group. Spoiler : The 4E game will fell more like Generic wow clone : tabletop edition than a proper D&D game.
The only one that doesnt feel right is 4E because it feel constrained to a tactical grid , it's good only for a tactical jrpg. Else darksun will work on everything, you just have to homebrew a few rules related to survival, add a few races you dont find in core books, thats all. Luckily you dont have to put much work inot it as some guys already did it for you and posted on the internet.
You are no DM viktor or only played a few time as one. System doesnt matter much, its the quality of the setting and collaborative story telling first.Even for combat each system is good enough to do some deep tactical combat, even free OSR ones.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
17,089
Location
Frostfell
Talking about importing rules form one edition to another, I think that if I ever DM a Dark Sun setting on 2E, I will import the exhaustion rules from 5E. IMO would work better than normal "dehydration rules". About our OSR game, I tried to run a one shot of ship of horrors. The lv 10 party died pretty quickly, they managed to figure out the reason of the horror on the ship, pick the required "stuff" on the bottom of the ocean, but when they reached the island, they triggered a trap and refused to let his companion to die and got surrounded by two snow golems + a couple of undead and died quickly... The module says that is a adventure for a lv 8~10 party. But monsters with 12 hit dices are not rare.

I prefer to not enter much on module details, but here is the stats of a Snow Golem - Ship of Horrors - Page 68

9Idz4jv.png

I think that if the party was a couple of levels higher. I played for months with the party and was expecting that they could at least reach the main dungeon of the island.

Note that the book uses descending AC. My group uses ascending, so 6 AC = 13 AC. The same AC of ring mail on mode modern editions. I even gave a scroll of transmute snow to stone to the magic user, expecting that he would use it against the ice golems which are common enemies, but he din't even memorized that spell.
 
Last edited:

Mortmal

Arcane
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
9,512
Talking about importing rules form one edition to another, I think that if I ever DM a Dark Sun setting on 2E, I will import the exhaustion rules from 5E. IMO would work better than normal "dehydration rules". About our OSR game, I tried to run a one shot of ship of horrors. The lv 10 party died pretty quickly, they managed to figure out the reason of the horror on the ship, pick the required "stuff" on the bottom of the ocean, but when they reached the island, they triggered a trap and refused to let his companion to die and got surrounded by two snow golems + a couple of undead and died quickly... The module says that is a adventure for a lv 8~10 party. But monsters with 12 hit dices are not rare.

I prefer to not enter much on module details, but here is the stats of a Snow Golem - Ship of Horrors - Page 68

9Idz4jv.png

I think that if the party was a couple of levels higher. I played for months with the party and was expecting that they could at least reach the main dungeon of the island.

Note that the book uses descending AC. My group uses ascending, so 6 AC = 13 AC. The same AC of ring mail on mode modern editions. I even gave a scroll of transmute snow to stone to the magic user, expecting that he would use it against the ice golems which are common enemies, but he din't even memorized that spell.

Common thing to do for AD&D , 2E and OSR if i remember well is looking at HD , its rather simple (but not enough ) one HD per character level so here 12 roughly equivalent to a one level 12 character. A group of fully rested 4 levels 10 characters should handle 3-4 of those golems in theory. Now there's terrain and positioning, if they know the rules and combat mechanics. In this case obviously not ,if they get a scroll and dont get the clue to copy it on the spellbook.
Here's some guidelines i found , rules cyclopedia :

1. Figure out the party level. Do this by simply adding together all the levels each character has.

If a character is wounded, treat it as being at least one level less than their actual level.To determine what their effective level is, do the following:

If the character has taken damage equal to their level, count them as being one level less than actual. For example, a 4th level character that has taken 4 points of damage would be counted as being effectively 3rd level (reduced by 1 level).

If a character has taken up to double their level in damage, then reduce their effective level by 2. For example, a 10th level character that's taken up to 20 points of damage would be considered as being effectively 8th level.

A character may not have their effective level reduced by more than half due to damage.

2. Determine the Monster(s) Adjusted HD value.

2a.Start with the actual base HD.
If there are additional hit points added to the HD, divide the additional hit points by 5, round up, and add it to the base HD. For example, if a monster is listed as having Hit Dice 10 + 7, you would divide the + 7 by 5 (1.4), round up (2) and add it back to the base (10) for a total of 12.

2b. If there are subtractions to the HD, subtract 1/2 (half) a HD for each -2 [default seems to be to round down unless explicitly told otherwise]. For example, if a monster is listed as having HD 10 -7, you would subtract 1.5 HD (the extra hit point left over is lost) from the base HD (10) for a total of 8.5.

2c. Special Abilities
For each special ability a creature (or NPC) has, divide their base HD by 2 and add that number to the Adjusted HD. For example, if a creature is listed as having HD 10 + 7, and two special abilities, you would divide the base HD (10) in half (5) and then add it back to the base twice (since it has 2 special abilities).

This means that your HD 10 + 7 creature with two special abilities winds up with a total adjusted HD value of 22.

If the NPC (creature) has +2 magic weapons (or their equivalent), this also counts as a special ability, and modifies the HD value as already explained.

2d. Spell casting
If an NPC (creature) can cast spells, take the highest level spell that can be cast, divide by 2, and then divide the resulting number by the number of NPCs (creatures) in the group. For example, if you have 2 NPCs and one of them can cast 6th levels spells, you would divide that by 2 (3), and then divide the result (3) by 2 again (since there's 2 NPCs) for a total adjustment of 1.5 HD.

If both NPCs were listed as being HD 10+7, had 2 special abilities, and one of them could also cast 6th level spells, their total adusted HD value would be 45.5

3. Determine the challenge

Divide the Adjusted HD value by the party level. As a rough guide for what the percentages work out as, here's the suggestions from the RC:

Less than 10%: Too easy. Play it for laughs, ignore it, whatever. Only if the party is injured or weaponless is it really worth considering.

10%-20%: Minor. Random encounters should be around this difficult.

20%-30%: Distraction. It'll cost the party some, but isn't especially challenging on it's own. Best to use this level if you want a constant stream of combats with little chance for the part to rest up and recover.

30%-40%: Good Fight. This can be a tough random encounter, or a fight lasting about half the adventure session.

50%-70%: Challenging. The party will definitely hurt, but the odds are still in their favor if they're smart. About 3 to 5 of these for a dungeon, depending on the size of the dungeon/length of the adventure.

70%-90%: Major. This is usually the main showdown of an adventure/dungeon.

90%-110%: Risky. Chance of party members dying is high. This is mostly suitable as a "cap" for the final encounter with the Big Bad Evil after a series of adventures leading up to him/her/it.

110%+: Extremely Dangerous. This is basically impossible for PCs to win.


So here we go "Divide the Adjusted HD value by the party level" 90%-110 risky in your case
 
Last edited:

Larianshill

Arbiter
Joined
Feb 16, 2021
Messages
2,108
New book announcement this friday, apparently. I'm 70% sure it's Dragonlance.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom