Crypts of Avaritia - design discussion and feedback

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

Hej bror,
One question - are you planning the dynamic music changes during, for example: exploration and combat?

 

[r3jonwah85]

Hej bror,
One question - are you planning the dynamic music changes during, for example: exploration and combat?

Hmm, I have though about it and it is possible with my music manager, I will have to test it out and see what I think. My initial thought is no, except during "boss battles" (larger creatures in trap rooms for example).

 

[r3jonwah85]

So, after some really heavy workload at work, 2 weeks of vacation and some illness I finally have tinkered around a bit with the game again. I felt like trying to get better at 3D-modeling since the enemies is going to take a lot of time in that department and I have almost no skills to speak of. After a couple of hours I have something at least, will continue to improve proportions etc, this is very much a work in progress.

 

[theSavant]

45.000 triangles? You make the classical mistake of using too much polygons, just because the 3D modeller allows it. You won't see the impact with only 1 model, but once the scene in the game fills up it'll kill your framerate. All people do this mistake when starting 3D modelling, I did as well and once made models for a Unreal Tournament map (all high poly) and it ran like crap, even though the Unreal engine is much more optimized than Unity engine. In the above case the model could be created with 5000 triangles at most.

 

[r3jonwah85]

45.000 triangles? You make the classical mistake of using too much polygons, just because the 3D modeller allows it. You won't see the impact with only 1 model, but once the scene in the game fills up it'll kill your framerate. All people do this mistake when starting 3D modelling, I did as well and once made models for a Unreal Tournament map (all high poly) and it ran like crap, even though the Unreal engine is much more optimized than Unity engine. In the above case the model could be created with 5000 triangles at most.

Well of course, this is pictures from the sculpturing software. Here I make the high poly version of the model and export the normal maps with better details, then I export to blender and reduce the polycount, have tested and got really good results with somewhere around 2200 triangles for this model. So I am well aware of what you are saying, I actually aim for less than 1000 triangles in most cases.

 

[theSavant]

I c. This approach is well enough. Then you were on the right path all along

 

[r3jonwah85]

I c. This approach is well enough. Then you were on the right path all along

Sorry if my response came out sounding a bit defensive (had to be short since my freaking phone wont scroll properly when posting so I can't see what I type), I am always open for suggestions, improvements and ideas. I got the workflow from reading a post on the Legend of Grimrock blog and have seen it at some other places, the nice thing doing it this way is the amount of "faked" detail you can preserve by using the the high resolution model for making normal maps, like they did here:

High poly model:

Low poly model with normal map:

 

[r3jonwah85]

And a new one

 

[Invictus]

I usually don't enjoy dungeon crawlers, much less the randomly generated ones but forgive my storyfag tendencies but is there going to be some sort of storyline to this or overreaching goal?
Or is this going to be a "play till you die" kind of game?
I really like what I see so far, with the puzzles and the actual concepts behind combat (always hit if you aim right but damage is dependant on character skill) so everything looks really promising

 

[r3jonwah85]

I usually don't enjoy dungeon crawlers, much less the randomly generated ones but forgive my storyfag tendencies but is there going to be some sort of storyline to this or overreaching goal?
Or is this going to be a "play till you die" kind of game?
I really like what I see so far, with the puzzles and the actual concepts behind combat (always hit if you aim right but damage is dependant on character skill) so everything looks really promising

Thanks! Well there will be a goal and light story elements, like small messages from previous adventurers and similar stuff. The thing is I really would like to make a huge story driven epic game, but it is not really feasable at this point. So my plan has been from the start to develop all mechanics and systems and make a smaller game, like this game will be. When this is done I intend to expand upon this universe and make a full story driven open world game, where everything I have done previously will be a part of the world.

 

[Invictus]

Ok then I would suggest a small goal per playthrough, like getting all randomly scattered pieces of the "Medalion of Ages" or "Crown of Incline" so depending on how many levels you choose to play, say 5, your ultimate goal could be as generic as that as to not require a proper storyline but give somebackdrop for the actual gameplay

 

[r3jonwah85]

And a centaur to add to the gang:

 

[r3jonwah85]

Ok then I would suggest a small goal per playthrough, like getting all randomly scattered pieces of the "Medalion of Ages" or "Crown of Incline" so depending on how many levels you choose to play, say 5, your ultimate goal could be as generic as that as to not require a proper storyline but give somebackdrop for the actual gameplay

That is something I will keep in mind which could add a bit of challenge and incentive, my basic idea was to survive and get out of the dungeon (or to the bottom level), and doing so was only possible if you solved certain key puzzles and unlocked certain doors to progress, so your suggestion fits in nicely.

 

[Durwyn]

Ogre looks pretty fine, though centaur legs need to be bulked a bit. Now they look like they'd break under the burden of the upper body weight.

 

[Kaucukovnik]

I'm not really into char design and animation, but from what I've read hi-poly models usually require manually redoing the topology for low-poly version to animate properly. What's your plan for reducing the polycount?

 

[cherry blossom]

Hej bror,
One question - are you planning the dynamic music changes during, for example: exploration and combat?

Hmm, I have though about it and it is possible with my music manager, I will have to test it out and see what I think. My initial thought is no, except during "boss battles" (larger creatures in trap rooms for example).

Please no. Dynamic music has been ruining most games ever since its inception. It is so unnecessary.

Also, almost none of the Codex classics have combat music if I remember right.

 

[r3jonwah85]

Hej bror,
One question - are you planning the dynamic music changes during, for example: exploration and combat?

Hmm, I have though about it and it is possible with my music manager, I will have to test it out and see what I think. My initial thought is no, except during "boss battles" (larger creatures in trap rooms for example).

Please no. Dynamic music has been ruining most games ever since its inception. It is so unnecessary.

Also, almost none of the Codex classics have combat music if I remember right.

Like I said it is probably not going to happen, it makes more sense in turn based combat games. My ambition with the music (or more correctly ambiance) is to capture a feeling of loneliness, vulnerability and a bit of horror, you are no super hero going down in the depths. Like when you walk around in Gothic for the first hours (the feeling of being vulnerable that is, not the music).

 

[r3jonwah85]

I'm not really into char design and animation, but from what I've read hi-poly models usually require manually redoing the topology for low-poly version to animate properly. What's your plan for reducing the polycount?

The way I will do it and have done it so far is to create the low polygon version before any rigging is done. Since you weight paint the vertices to the bones I assume you will have to redo the the weight painting if the mesh change unless there is some smart automatic way to this that I am not aware of. I see no reason in rigging the high poly version if you are not going to use it.

Regarding the actual reduction of polygons I do some manual work with the polygon reduction brush in Sculptris, then I use the decimate tool in blender which works really well so far.

 

[Kaucukovnik]

Everyone warns against doing that, saying that decimated character mesh won't deform properly because of suboptimal edge flow. I don't really know for myself, maybe that's just some minor oddities, or mere surviving prejudice against automation.
Retopo seems to be the last big hurdle for non-technical artists to create game-ready 3D characters, so I'm looking forward to see the results!

Regarding dynamic music - the original Unreal did this rather well, I'd say. Exploration/combat variants for all tracks + special loops for some specific parts of levels. It wasn't perfect, but it rarely distracted and when it kicked in it improved the game flow and feel quite a bit.

 

[r3jonwah85]

Everyone warns against doing that, saying that decimated character mesh won't deform properly because of suboptimal edge flow. I don't really know for myself, maybe that's just some minor oddities, or mere surviving prejudice against automation.
Retopo seems to be the last big hurdle for non-technical artists to create game-ready 3D characters, so I'm looking forward to see the results!

Regarding dynamic music - the original Unreal did this rather well, I'd say. Exploration/combat variants for all tracks + special loops for some specific parts of levels. It wasn't perfect, but it rarely distracted and when it kicked in it improved the game flow and feel quite a bit.

I was not fully aware of the problems actually (as said, total beginner), have been reading up a bit now and see what you mean, I just haven't had any problems so far. Will look into it more and update my approach if needed, will keep you updated!

 

[r3jonwah85]

Meanwhile I just textured my first creature, for a very first attempt it looks pretty ok but can of course be improved, but for now it does the job. There are normal maps as well but sculptris does not render those very good so this is just the flat texture.

I will use the boar the work on the hunting skill (that is the one skill I have not programmed yet), will update on that as well later on.

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

So... Hog Sluts DLC incoming?

 

[Durwyn]

I will use the boar the work on the hunting skill (that is the one skill I have not programmed yet), will update on that as well later on.

I thought your game will take place entirely in underground levels, crypts etc. How the heck will hunting work and why should there be any animals like boars down there of course apart from some shallow caves near the surface? I don't really mind this realistic vs gameplay bullshit but this still seems ...bizzare.

 

[r3jonwah85]

I will use the boar the work on the hunting skill (that is the one skill I have not programmed yet), will update on that as well later on.

I thought your game will take place entirely in underground levels, crypts etc. How the heck will hunting work and why should there be any animals like boars down there of course apart from some shallow caves near the surface? I don't really mind this realistic vs gameplay bullshit but this still seems ...bizzare.

Well, I have not really set exactly what type of fauna that will inhabit the crypts/dungeons, but you are right it will be set underground. I do feel like spiders and rats are pretty natural in that environment, and some boars might have found their way down there, I have not set anything in stone yet. I just needed an animal to use while programming the stuff and also practice texturing since I have never done that before. There will also be swamp like environments and dead forests underground (this is a magical place after all), so the boars could survive there. But at this stage just look at it as placeholder.

Regarding the hunting skill it will work in a way that the more efficient you are (higher skill level), the more meat you can get of a killed animal. The only places to find food is in in habitats, some few plants and to kill animals/creatures. Since survival will be a big part of the gameplay I do feel that it is needed to be able to hunt to some degree.

 

[r3jonwah85]

So... Hog Sluts DLC incoming?

The people love their DLC right? I would just give them what they want I guess. Maybe will start a poll just in case...