Crypts of Avaritia - design discussion and feedback

[Invictus]

This is looking better all the time, but from straight up dungeon crawler this is looking more like a open world rogue like

 

[r3jonwah85]

This is looking better all the time, but from straight up dungeon crawler this is looking more like a open world rogue like

Thanks! Yeah, the title might be a bit misleading, might have to put some work into writing a sales pitch and catchy highlights, but I rather just do some real work. Also the game keeps changing (even though to a lesser extent) so I will wait a bit longer out of lazyness. Unfortunately I guess I will have to change my attitude since it seems you have to put in some real hard work in promoting your game, else it will be like now with about 10 interested persons I just hope that I do not have to create a Twitter/Facebook/Instagram/rest of the "my life is so fantastic as you can see in these filtered images but my pet worm just died so I need your pity and likes now to feel good about my self" crapfest media.

 

[r3jonwah85]

Small update on something new, been writing the dungeon generation algorithm for a while and wanted to start implementing some features. From the very beginning I wanted to impement a stealth system that was similar to Thief but I just could not come up with a good way to do it (without using light maps). But today an idea just popped up in my head, and 4 hours later it was prototyped and working quite well. All "art" is placeholder, the orb that indicates the light on the player was the fastest way I could think of to get visual feedback, this will change later on.

 

[Ninjerk]

I was playing Deus Ex once when I thought to myself: "Why don't they use the lightness/darkness of the hand/weapon model to communicate information about how hidden in darkness a character is?"

 

[r3jonwah85]

I was playing Deus Ex once when I thought to myself: "Why don't they use the lightness/darkness of the hand/weapon model to communicate information about how hidden in darkness a character is?"

Yeah, I mean it is pretty simple and make more sense than a lightbar, so it will probably be some kind of magical item that have to be equipped in the end.

Not anything new, but i realized that I did not show anything with occluding objects, so this video highlights that. Also, since users might not be able to use shadows (I was actually not planning on using them at all for performance reasons, but is is better to make it an option I think to satisfy all the graphic whores on the codex) I show the difference with or without shadows. Shadows give you more of a visual que, other than that they work exactly the same.



So do you guys think it looks to weird when shadows are not used? Or is it possible to expect that the player have some imagination and understand that you can occlude the light behind a pillar?

 

[Ninjerk]

I was playing Deus Ex once when I thought to myself: "Why don't they use the lightness/darkness of the hand/weapon model to communicate information about how hidden in darkness a character is?"

Yeah, I mean it is pretty simple and make more sense than a lightbar, so it will probably be some kind of magical item that have to be equipped in the end.

Not anything new, but i realized that I did not show anything with occluding objects, so this video highlights that. Also, since users might not be able to use shadows (I was actually not planning on using them at all for performance reasons, but is is better to make it an option I think to satisfy all the graphic whores on the codex) I show the difference with or without shadows. Shadows give you more of a visual que, other than that they work exactly the same.



So do you guys think it looks to weird when shadows are not used? Or is it possible to expect that the player have some imagination and understand that you can occlude the light behind a pillar?

I like shadows being used, personally, but typically there's two things that are not utilized when shadows effect stealth: light sensitivity when transitioning from a lit area to a non-lit area (and vice-versa) and... shit, there's something else but it left me. That might needlessly complicate your stealth system (I don't know how difficult it would be to implement, as well as deciding whether enemies should have some AI limitation that takes it into account). Are you going to be taking sound into account, as well?

 

[r3jonwah85]

I like shadows being used, personally, but typically there's two things that are not utilized when shadows effect stealth: light sensitivity when transitioning from a lit area to a non-lit area (and vice-versa) and... shit, there's something else but it left me. That might needlessly complicate your stealth system (I don't know how difficult it would be to implement, as well as deciding whether enemies should have some AI limitation that takes it into account). Are you going to be taking sound into account, as well?

Not sure exactly what you mean, please feel free to elaborate as I am curious. My plan is to update the AI with a couple of options, one of them being ability to see in the dark and consequently the fear of light. Some creatures like the dark and will still be able to see you, some others wont. Regarding the sound part I have been thinking about it during the day, it would be nice to add to the AI system since you then can have creatures without eyes and such, but I think I have to read a bit more before I take that decision. It would be pretty easy to say that the sound you are making is depending on run/walk/sneak, but ideally you would want it the way it is in Thief (different materials also affects the sound) and that might be trickier. But perhaps just a raycast to the floor end check the tag is enough or maybe I will use physics materials, will give it a try tomorrow!

 

[Zombra]

Will there be darkness-dwelling monsters who can't see in the light? That would be a cool twist.

 

[Ninjerk]

I like shadows being used, personally, but typically there's two things that are not utilized when shadows effect stealth: light sensitivity when transitioning from a lit area to a non-lit area (and vice-versa) and... shit, there's something else but it left me. That might needlessly complicate your stealth system (I don't know how difficult it would be to implement, as well as deciding whether enemies should have some AI limitation that takes it into account). Are you going to be taking sound into account, as well?

Not sure exactly what you mean, please feel free to elaborate as I am curious. My plan is to update the AI with a couple of options, one of them being ability to see in the dark and consequently the fear of light. Some creatures like the dark and will still be able to see you, some others wont. Regarding the sound part I have been thinking about it during the day, it would be nice to add to the AI system since you then can have creatures without eyes and such, but I think I have to read a bit more before I take that decision. It would be pretty easy to say that the sound you are making is depending on run/walk/sneak, but ideally you would want it the way it is in Thief (different materials also affects the sound) and that might be trickier. But perhaps just a raycast to the floor end check the tag is enough or maybe I will use physics materials, will give it a try tomorrow!

Imagine you're in a room at night during a full moon and you turn all the lights off. It will take a few moments for your eyes to adjust to the difference between the bulb-lit room and the moonlight.

Re: sound: You can also think of using item throwing to make noise or let the player knock on walls like in Metal Gear Solid.

 

[r3jonwah85]

Will there be darkness-dwelling monsters who can't see in the light? That would be a cool twist.

Yes, something like that, though the extent of it has yet to be determined. But it seems only reasonable that animals/creatures that have lived in the dark their whole life would not like light or perhaps be stunned/blinded.

Imagine you're in a room at night during a full moon and you turn all the lights off. It will take a few moments for your eyes to adjust to the difference between the bulb-lit room and the moonlight.

Re: sound: You can also think of using item throwing to make noise or let the player knock on walls like in Metal Gear Solid.

Ahh, I see what you mean now, that will probably not be inlcluded due to a lot of technical reasons, but I will look into it. One problem is that people have different screens and Unity does not support changing gamma, so I have to play with ambient lighting to brighten/darken the screen. Using a adaptive mode will probably break this and some users will see nothing and some users will see too much during transition periods.

Regarding noise making items I have already somewhat implemented that (it is in one of the videos, I throw around little white cubes, maybe I did not use it in the video to attract enemies...) so that is definitely the plan to keep evolving that.

 

[r3jonwah85]

Update on the sound part of the stealth system, I now have different materials working.



There is a volume difference on the steps depending on movement speed, just have to tweak it a bit since it not very audible right now.

 

[Ninjerk]

Does the pitch of the footsteps change as you gain speed?

 

[r3jonwah85]

Does the pitch of the footsteps change as you gain speed?

Now it does, does sound better so thanks for the tip!

You guys can try it out here if you want, run using left shift and sneak using left ctrl (hold them down that is):

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12407316/CryptsOfAvaritiaStealth/CryptsOfAvaritiaStealth.html

 

[r3jonwah85]

Been doing some dungeon stuff again, now a better implementation of "stairs" (all slanted paths are called stairs). They kind of look like the dungeons in Daggerfall.

 

[Ninjerk]

Can the dungeons be generated so that the pathways on different z-level(is this how it's described?) link back to rooms that the player would come into contact with previously? Could "secret" doors or doors that require lever-pulling or some other mechanic be generated?

 

[r3jonwah85]

Can the dungeons be generated so that the pathways on different z-level(is this how it's described?) link back to rooms that the player would come into contact with previously? Could "secret" doors or doors that require lever-pulling or some other mechanic be generated?

Yes they can, but at the moment that is based on pure chance, so it won't happen that often (but at the second picture it seems to happen actually). If they are not in the same "zone" I plan on having bar doors/windows that won't open, that way the player can see a part that they yet have not reached and start to investigate, this is a trick used by many older games. That said, I will be looking at adding ladders,ropes and elevators to link parts together vertically and also just for changing verticality.

Regarding that secret doors and lever pulling doors, this whole algorithm has been designed with those kind of things in mind. Each placed door knows it parent and child, and since each room has a zone it is super easy to know what kind of door to place, e.g. one room is zone 0, next room is zone 1, then the door is a variety of locked doors (puzzle, lever, key, pressure plate etc) and the "solution" must be placed in the lower zone. That way it is guaranteed that the dungeon is always solvable.

 

[r3jonwah85]

Been away for a while due to sickness, but have been trying to make some progress with the game. After playing some games and watching a lot of videos of other people playing games I have come up with a clearer vision of how I want to design my dungeons. Quake, Unreal and Doom/Hexen/Heretic etc have some awesome level design and very non-linear gameplay (well it can be linear progression but not linear levels) which I will use as inspiration, I just feel that the levels in these games feel more like dungeons than dungeons do in games that have "real" dungeons, if that makes any sense

So what I have come up with so far looks like this:

Sideview, just to see the verticality:

And a perspective shot from another angle:

It is still buggy as hell and looks like shit, but I have decided to not give a crap about the graphics until the mechanics are somewhat done. Here is a also a small video walking around in the dungeon:


Right now I am working on the generation of the "internal floors", as you might see in the video there are some stupid stairs leading into walls and other messy stuff, but the idea is to be able to connect new rooms on different heights and get a more vertical type of movement. This will in the end allow the player to vertically see much further ahead progress wise in the dungeon, a thing that is often used in Quake. This is already done horizontally using "windows" with bars that lets the player see into the next locked zone but is not able to get there without unlocking the doors.

The to-do list is very very long, but the big things are at least coming somewhat along.

As per usual, comments and critique is very welcome!

 

[Ninjerk]

 

[Modron]

Going to bump the Tangut Prophecy thread next or something?

 

[Ninjerk]

Good idea.

 

[Ninjerk]

Going to bump the Tangut Prophecy thread next or something?

 

[Siveon]

Been away for a while due to sickness, but have been trying to make some progress with the game.

Aw man, I really hope this dude didn't die on me.

 

[r3jonwah85]

Been away for a while due to sickness, but have been trying to make some progress with the game.

Aw man, I really hope this dude didn't die on me.

Not dead, but I would say that the project pretty much is. It was for the best, code was messy as hell and a pain to maintain. Lessons learnt the hard way. Also too big of a project for a one-man team (at least since I only could spend a couple of nights a week). But all of the mechanics and ideas still live in other projects, usually post stuff in the Codex Workshop thread.

 

[Siveon]

Ah, I got'cha. Was worried there for a sec.

Welp, hopefully the crawler dream won't completely die out in the future. Godspeed.