Console limitations - How much truth in such claims?

[Skittles]

eh to fix the problem of input, the devs can just allow you to plug in a Mouse + keyboard to play a game.

Sure, consoles are capable of more than they've been used for. The charge (by people who aren't graphics tards) that they've channeled game design is not based on limitations on what they're possibly able to do; it has more to do with how they're actually used and designed for. If most people attached consoles to monitors, keyboards, and mouses, designing for them wouldn't be too much different for PCs. But people don't, so devs design accordingly and that means they generally shy away from games/design choices that require more complex input options and lots of text when they have consoles in mind.

They use the same USB ports, so why don't Microsoft and Sony just allow you to plug them in? Does it cost more?

Why don't they? I don't know their specific reasoning--I'm not sure it's a question either company has ever publicly addressed and am interested in hearing someone else chime in. The cynical side of me wants to believe it's because forcing people to buy their peripherals or at least licensed peripherals is more profitable. More charitably, I would guess the following are potential sources of concern: how to deliver drivers (particularly in a pre-always online console era) and support their development for a closed system; how to handle customers navigating compatibility issues; potentially fracturing your market (operating under the assumption that you want everyone buying your sold-at-a-loss console to be a potential buyer of every game you release); causing issues with multiplayer balance in games where there are performance differences between players with different inputs. And bear in mind that part of the appeal of consoles is not having to deal with headaches like updating drivers, doing research on compatibility, having to develop a lot of system literacy, etc. They're mostly supposed to be take it out of the box, plug it in, and play. If there isn't a lot of demand, why even do the work of figuring out how much of an obstacle each of these presents? It's not even a "sexy" feature like motion control or VR.

Again, I'm only speculating; your guess is as good as mine. I think it's telling that Microsoft's early signals about (Direct)Xboxes indicated that they might have been interested in taking a more laissez-faire approach, but that's not what they ultimately produced. I doubt that shift was due to whimsy.

 

[Ash]

And what is the difference between a gamepad button and a keyboard key, exactly? I don't get this at all. Do you lick your keyboard keys instead of pressing them?

Pressure sensitive buttons enable variable magnitude in input. e.g Tap the jump button softly for a little hop, push the button hard to do a full jump. Meanwhile keyboard keys are binary pressed/not pressed.

Console pads and M+K each have their pros and cons in equal measure in my opinion, I say as someone that has worked with both, and plays with both.

 

[Severian Silk]

I'm not sure it's a question either company has ever publicly addressed and am interested in hearing someone else chime in.

I don't think so either.

The cynical side of me wants to believe it's because forcing people to buy their peripherals or at least licensed peripherals is more profitable.

They already allow third party peripherals. They are not Apple. Also, they could make "official Xbox keyboard" or whatever.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Even the Xbox 360 had a mini-keyboard attachment. It was tiny, but for MMOs like Final Fantasy XI it was incredible. Just for typing in general on the Xbox it was great. They probably don't sell lots of stuff like that, though, since most console users just want something simple and plug and play, etc.

 

[Severian Silk]

And what is the difference between a gamepad button and a keyboard key, exactly? I don't get this at all. Do you lick your keyboard keys instead of pressing them?

Pressure sensitive buttons enable variable magnitude in input. e.g Tap the jump button softly for a little hop, push the button hard to do a full jump. Meanwhile keyboard keys are binary pressed/not pressed.

Shift key to toggle run/walk is enough.

 

[Severian Silk]

And what is the difference between a gamepad button and a keyboard key, exactly? I don't get this at all. Do you lick your keyboard keys instead of pressing them?

Pressure sensitive buttons enable variable magnitude in input. e.g Tap the jump button softly for a little hop, push the button hard to do a full jump. Meanwhile keyboard keys are binary pressed/not pressed.

Also, what does this have to do with JA2 or RTSs? How would they benefit from pressure sensitive buttons?

 

[Skittles]

They already allow third party peripherals. They are not Apple. Also, they could make "official Xbox keyboard" or whatever.

Licensed, no? At least for the surviving big three. That allows them both quality control (brand protection and 'cause the average consumer is going to bitch to Sony if the PS4 controller they bought has issues even if it's made by Nacon or whoever) and to make some money off of the enterprise.

 

[Ash]

And what is the difference between a gamepad button and a keyboard key, exactly? I don't get this at all. Do you lick your keyboard keys instead of pressing them?

Pressure sensitive buttons enable variable magnitude in input. e.g Tap the jump button softly for a little hop, push the button hard to do a full jump. Meanwhile keyboard keys are binary pressed/not pressed.

Also, what does this have to do with JA2 or RTSs? How would they benefit from pressure sensitive buttons?

Probably wouldn't, although given innovative thought I'm sure one could come up with something worthwhile. You asked for the difference, I gave it.

 

[Severian Silk]

They already allow third party peripherals. They are not Apple. Also, they could make "official Xbox keyboard" or whatever.

Licensed, no? At least for the surviving big three. That allows them both quality control (brand protection and 'cause the average consumer is going to bitch to Sony if the PS4 controller they bought has issues even if it's made by Nacon or whoever) and to make some money off of the enterprise.

Does it matter if they're licensed?

 

[sullynathan]

Sure, consoles are capable of more than they've been used for. The charge (by people who aren't graphics tards) that they've channeled game design is not based on limitations on what they're possibly able to do; it has more to do with how they're actually used and designed for. If most people attached consoles to monitors, keyboards, and mouses, designing for them wouldn't be too much different for PCs. But people don't, so devs design accordingly and that means they generally shy away from games/design choices that require more complex input options and lots of text when they have consoles in mind.

From my understanding, Sony & MS have left it up to developers to allow other inputs for games. Like we saw with the overwatch thing, apparently you can use M+KB but it doesn't seem like the devs actually put that feature there. Must have been a cheat.

 

[Severian Silk]

Also, what does this have to do with JA2 or RTSs? How would they benefit from pressure sensitive buttons?

Probably wouldn't, although given innovative thought I'm sure one could come up with something worthwhile. You asked for the difference, I gave it.

Yes, but we were speaking in the context of JA2 and RTSs. You said JA2 was a bad example of a game not being ported to a console. Pressure sensitive buttons don't change this.

 

[Severian Silk]

Sure, consoles are capable of more than they've been used for. The charge (by people who aren't graphics tards) that they've channeled game design is not based on limitations on what they're possibly able to do; it has more to do with how they're actually used and designed for. If most people attached consoles to monitors, keyboards, and mouses, designing for them wouldn't be too much different for PCs. But people don't, so devs design accordingly and that means they generally shy away from games/design choices that require more complex input options and lots of text when they have consoles in mind.

From my understanding, Sony & MS have left it up to developers to allow other inputs for games. Like we saw with the overwatch thing, apparently you can use M+KB but it doesn't seem like the devs actually put that feature there. Must have been a cheat.

The aftermarket "mice" emulate analog sticks. They don't work like regular computer mice. It's like using a mouse in an emulator.

 

[Ash]

No, I said it was a bad example of a lack of buttons of console pads holding gameplay depth back, and there are other, better examples.

But it's not so one-sided as the console pad can do things that M+K cannot do too.

Another point is console pads can evolve futher. The mouse and keyboard unfortunately will likely forever remain the same for gaming, as all PC games are designed for stock mouse and keyboards, which in themselves are not design for gaming, but for typing and UI navigation. I'm forever waiting for a form of input that takes the benefits of each and combines them, but it'll probably never happen.

Shift key to toggle run/walk is enough.

Mentality like this also holds back gameplay depth. Yes, our forms of input we have now are "good enough", but things can be better. It can go so much deeper, given the opportunity.

 

[Skittles]

They already allow third party peripherals. They are not Apple. Also, they could make "official Xbox keyboard" or whatever.

Licensed, no? At least for the surviving big three. That allows them both quality control (brand protection and 'cause the average consumer is going to bitch to Sony if the PS4 controller they bought has issues even if it's made by Nacon or whoever) and to make some money off of the enterprise.

Does it matter if they're licensed?

Why encourage or even allow people to plug random Logitech mice into your console (that you sold at a loss) if you can instead have them buy a peripheral you get a cut of? Especially if it means you'd have to dedicate even a single dollar to supporting non-licensed peripherals? To please the 1 in 1,000 customers who actually wants that feature and for whom it's probably not make or break?

 

[Severian Silk]

They already allow third party peripherals. They are not Apple. Also, they could make "official Xbox keyboard" or whatever.

Licensed, no? At least for the surviving big three. That allows them both quality control (brand protection and 'cause the average consumer is going to bitch to Sony if the PS4 controller they bought has issues even if it's made by Nacon or whoever) and to make some money off of the enterprise.

Does it matter if they're licensed?

Why encourage or even allow people to plug random Logitech mice into your console (that you sold at a loss) if you can instead have them buy a peripheral you get a cut of? Especially if it means you'd have to dedicate even a single dollar to supporting non-licensed peripherals? To please the 1 in 1,000 customers who actually wants that feature and for whom it's probably not make or break?

I wasn't clear, but I meant, Microsoft and Sony could make their own "official" keyboards and mice if they wanted to (in fact they have, for PC). Licensing is not the issue.

 

[Dev_Anj]

Pressure sensitive buttons enable variable magnitude in input. e.g Tap the jump button softly for a little hop, push the button hard to do a full jump. Meanwhile keyboard keys are binary pressed/not pressed.

How is this an advantage of controllers? Those exist on keyboards already, people playing with emulators can attest to that. Lightly tap on the key for a small jump, hold it for a full one.

If you really must state an advantage of controllers, maybe you could mention that they're theoretically more convenient since they have a lower number of buttons and most of them can be reached by a few fingers on each hand.

 

[Severian Silk]

Mentality like this also holds back gameplay depth. Yes, our forms of input we have now are "good enough", but things can be better. It can go so much deeper, given the opportunity.

There are also things like TrackIR, which don't exist on consoles either. And VR is still not ready for prime time IMO, unless you want your girlfriend/significant other to see you looking like this:

 

[Skittles]

They already allow third party peripherals. They are not Apple. Also, they could make "official Xbox keyboard" or whatever.

Licensed, no? At least for the surviving big three. That allows them both quality control (brand protection and 'cause the average consumer is going to bitch to Sony if the PS4 controller they bought has issues even if it's made by Nacon or whoever) and to make some money off of the enterprise.

Does it matter if they're licensed?

Why encourage or even allow people to plug random Logitech mice into your console (that you sold at a loss) if you can instead have them buy a peripheral you get a cut of? Especially if it means you'd have to dedicate even a single dollar to supporting non-licensed peripherals? To please the 1 in 1,000 customers who actually wants that feature and for whom it's probably not make or break?

I wasn't clear, but I meant, Microsoft and Sony could make their own "official" keyboards and mice if they wanted to (in fact they have, for PC). Licensing is not the issue.

Oh, I see. But they have in one form or another (fluent also pointed this out). I'm going back to the assertion that it's not about what consoles might be capable of; it's what they're actually used for. Ash quite reasonably pointed out that text heavy games are quite viable if you just sit closer to the TV, but most people don't. You can attach your console to a monitor, you can buy KB&M peripherals, but the majority of console customers don't. And it's reasonable that devs would design and console designers would offer support with typical use in mind.

 

[sullynathan]

How is this an advantage of controllers? Those exist on keyboards already, people playing with emulators can attest to that. Lightly tap on the key for a small jump, hold it for a full one.

If you really must state an advantage of controllers, maybe you could mention that they're theoretically more convenient since they have a lower number of buttons and most of them can be reached by a few fingers on each hand.

A best pressurized buttons work better on controllers than they do on a keyboard.

 

[Severian Silk]

Oh, I see. But they have in one form or another (fluent also pointed this out). I'm going back to the assertion that it's not about what consoles might be capable of; it's what they're actually used for. Ash quite reasonably pointed out that text heavy games are quite viable if you just sit closer to the TV, but most people don't. You can attach your console to a monitor, you can buy KB&M peripherals, but the majority of console customers don't. And it's reasonable that devs would design and console designers would offer support with typical use in mind.

But MS and Sony made a conscious decision not to support regular keyboards and *real* mice (not analog stick emulating "mice"); and a lot of devs are *already* designing multiple interfaces for different platform. My theory is that MS and Sony want to keep console and PC players segregated from each other just so that they don't have to listen to console players bitching about getting p0wned in CS, or PC owners bitching about consolitis in UIs. They simply make more money by keeping players segregated.

 

[Ash]

"A best pressurized buttons work better on controllers than they do on a keyboard."

Hmm? Stock mouse and keyboards do not have pressure sensitive keys. You can get custom hardware for it, but there's little point as games are designed for stock hardware as that is what the vast majority of players use. It would pretty much only be useful for playing console games on an emulator unless pressure-sensitive keys become a new standard for all manufacturers, and considering the majority of manufacturers never take gaming into consideration it'll never happen.

 

[Soulcucker]

Pressure sensitive face buttons were terrible in practice, most games on the PS2 avoided using them for good reason. Limiting variable input to the analogue sticks and triggers where fine grain control makes is possible was a good move.

The next evolution of the console controller should be similar to the Xbone Elite controller with its underside buttons that can be used with ease while the thumbs remain on the sticks, but with the underside buttons being new buttons instead of just being redundant. Though I doubt console manufactures will go down this route because they think consumers are already intimidated by the number of buttons modern controllers have. I also like the idea of having a PS4 style touchpad to enable more complex UIs, but the PS4 touchpad is underutilized as is. Perhaps better placement of the touchpad would cause more developer to support it.

Text legibility has held games back, but I do think 4K displays will solve this. However it will take some time before sub 4K displays are a marginal part of the market that can be ignored. Even PS3 and Xbox 360 games were required to be readable on 480p SDTVs.

 

[Ash]

Pressure sensitive face buttons in particular are not bad in practice just because they don't offer fine grain control. Even if it were soft/hard input differentiation alone that is still better than binary on/off.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

What about sixaxis and tilt controls? Motion controls in controllers? Not saying any of these are "better" than KB/M, but they offer different and unique experiences.

Hmm, I wonder if consoles and controllers would push that even farther if they could? Maybe we have to start asking if computers are holding back console games. :D

 

[Ash]

A lot of that stuff is gimmicks if you ask me. Pressure sensitivity is an objective technical improvement, while tilt controls of the PS4 is pure gimmick and just plain annoying, at least I've not seen a good implementation of it yet. PS4 controller is gimmick-ridden unfortunately. Instead of adding new gameplay-dedicated buttons there's a....social media share button. Fuck you Sony for that level of decline. You could just put something like that on the desktop/dashboard or whatever the hell it's called.