Console limitations - How much truth in such claims?

[KILLER BEAR]

^Well it's not like Invisible War had amazing graphics or anything.

 

[Joevonzombie]

The worst cases of consolitus I can think of off the top of my head are The Witcher 2 (and subsequently 3) and Invisible War.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Amazing graphics or not, if RPGs that are running on technically inferior hardware can have large, sprawling levels, I think the superior hardware consoles should be able to do that as well. I'm not a game programmer or designer, though, but I would think it would be up to them to figure out the engine and strike a balance.

Witcher 3 ran on consoles, too, right?

 

[Joevonzombie]

Amazing graphics or not, if RPGs that are running on technically inferior hardware can have large, sprawling levels, I think the superior hardware consoles should be able to do that as well. I'm not a game programmer or designer, though, but I would think it would be up to them to figure out the engine and strike a balance.

Witcher 3 ran on consoles, too, right?

It runs like shit.

 

[Ash]

It's more a matter of not working with console limitations that caused such tiny levels. General rule should be: design for capable PC hardware specs, and for the console version reduce graphics whoring. Reduce/remove much post-processing (bloom, shaders, anti-aliasing), lower resolution, add special case limitations to the physics and so on.

This is how the xbox could support Morrowind released around the same time, an open world game. Again, a console is merely a low-end PC that only plays games.

The story also goes that a major engine programmer on Invisible War did whatever he wanted and fucked things up creating an unoptimzed mess, then left half way through the project.

Well it's not like Invisible War had amazing graphics oranything.

For a 2002 first person 3D game it was probably cutting edge. Clearly it was a game placing emphasis on atmosphere, graphics and accessibility over gameplay.

You are a moron.

Firstly, clearly you're the moron as you don't read. Nobody said console controlelrs don't hold back gameplay depth. Secondly, JA2 is a poor example of consoles holding back gameplay depth. Much of the keyboard input is shortcuts. Most cRPGs, strategy games and the like can be played EXCLUSIVELY with the cursor, and often are. There are better examples of consoles holding back gameplay depth on a high level than a lack of fucking shortcuts.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

It reminds me of Skyrim and Todd Howard saying they had to combine greaves + cuirass into one single armor slot because of the engine limitations. Maybe it's that too many of these modern engines focus on graphics way too much, thus adding limitations to other elements in return.

 

[KILLER BEAR]

^Well it's not like Invisible War had amazing graphics or anything.

For a 2002 first person 3D game it was probably cutting edge. .

It came out on December 2003 according to wikipedia so almost early 2004.
It looks standard for the era to me.

 

[Ash]

It looks standard for the era to me.

Standard if you mean "like the other big name games that were also cutting edge, such as Doom 3", sure. The game looked exceptional for it's time and it still looks great today, except the human character models.

It was a streamlined graphics whoring game attempting to compete with the other streamlined graphics whoring games, because those are the games that almost always dominate the sales charts, even on PC.

 

[KILLER BEAR]

Indeed.

Even though, from what I played the levels were way too small. I guess it opens up later on, but the tutorial area, the first hub, the club area, the hotel etc are all extremely tiny.

 

[Ash]

Nope, it stays tiny throughout, except Liberty Island at the end I guess which is ever so slightly more open and has a noticeably reduced lack of scene complexity (less effects, overall poly count, physics-enabled objects). Pretty sure they designed it for what the console could optimally handle first (regarding graphics whoring), rather than designing for PC then reducing the graphics and such solely for the console version. And that's been the standard for most multi-plat games ever since then. Cuts financial corners.

Could have been a great game xbox or not if they didn't prioritize the console, graphics whoring and accessibility above all. And the shit design decisions like universal ammo, can't forget about that. That was their idea of accessibility, but it was just more annoying and simply not fun more than anything.

 

[Trojan_generic]

This one is easy: there is no more text in games, because consoletards cannot read.

 

[Santander02]

Crysis

FOUR years after it was released on PC, they removed one of the missions from the original (Ascension which not surprisingly was also the most technically and intensive of them all), alongside multiplayer, the Warhead and Wars expansions, the graphics and view distance were severely cut down while putting this shitty blue filter on top of everything to hide it and they had so little faith it would sell on consoles they made it digital only. Oh yeah and they removed prone and lean again too.

...and Crysis 2 ran on an Xbox 360.

Crysis 2 was designed as a watered down console pop-a-mole game from the beginning, of course it did.

 

[sullynathan]

Crysis

FOUR years after it was released on PC, they removed one of the missions from the original (Ascension which not surprisingly was also the most technically and intensive of them all), alongside multiplayer, the Warhead and Wars expansions, the graphics and view distance were severely cut down while putting this shitty blue filter on top of everything to hide it and they had so little faith it would sell on consoles they made it digital only. Oh yeah and they removed prone and lean again too.

...and Crysis 2 ran on an Xbox 360.

Crysis 2 was designed as a watered down console pop-a-mole game from the beginning, of course it did.

Why they removed prone and lean is beyond me, console games have that.

Searching on the reason why the level was cut off, I found this answer

"We also received a great deal of fan feedback regarding one of the missions in the original Crysis and discovered that it was really frustrating for players and that they felt it was just not that fun to play. That's obviously the last thing you want to be hearing as a game developer, so we made the decision to remove that particular level completely, and we believe that the game as a whole is actually better for it."

They probably didn't want to keep the multiplayer servers alive and they were just selling Crysis for $20 which would be a steal with all its expansions too.


I blame Crytek. I'm still of the opinion that they've never made a good game

 

[Santander02]

^I can't think of a single console game that had L/P since Halo became a thing, but then again I can't really say I can count many PC games with those features since those times either

 

[sullynathan]

^I can't think of a single console game that had L/P since Halo became a thing, but then again I can't really say I can count many PC games with those features since those times either

Every cod game has prone and they're on consoles, so do most battlefield games. BF4 and BF1 have lean on consoles, rainbow six siege has lean and prone on consoles.

No halo game has lean or prone.

 

[Severian Silk]

Secondly, JA2 is a poor example of consoles holding back gameplay depth. Much of the keyboard input is shortcuts. Most cRPGs, strategy games and the like can be played EXCLUSIVELY with the cursor, and often are. There are better examples of consoles holding back gameplay depth on a high level than a lack of fucking shortcuts.

Yes, mouse cursor. Consoles don't have those. And onscreen buttons are for n00bs and disabled people. Don't try and suggest many people played JA2 to completion without using KB shortcuts.

The fact is, a console port of JA2 is never going to happen. Because consoles don't have mouse & keyboard.

And what is the difference between a gamepad button and a keyboard shortcut, exactly? I don't get this at all. Do you lick your keyboard keys instead of pressing them?

And technically, you could also get rid of 1/2 of gamepad buttons and replace them with a single shift button.

r00fles

 

[sullynathan]

eh to fix the problem of input, the devs can just allow you to plug in a Mouse + keyboard to play a game.

 

[Skittles]

eh to fix the problem of input, the devs can just allow you to plug in a Mouse + keyboard to play a game.

Sure, consoles are capable of more than they've been used for. The charge (by people who aren't graphics tards) that they've channeled game design is not based on limitations on what they're possibly able to do; it has more to do with how they're actually used and designed for. If most people attached consoles to monitors, keyboards, and mouses, designing for them wouldn't be too much different for PCs. But people don't, so devs design accordingly and that means they generally shy away from games/design choices that require more complex input options and lots of text when they have consoles in mind.

 

[Severian Silk]

eh to fix the problem of input, the devs can just allow you to plug in a Mouse + keyboard to play a game.

Sure, consoles are capable of more than they've been used for. The charge (by people who aren't graphics tards) that they've channeled game design is not based on limitations on what they're possibly able to do; it has more to do with how they're actually used and designed for. If most people attached consoles to monitors, keyboards, and mouses, designing for them wouldn't be too much different for PCs. But people don't, so devs design accordingly and that means they generally shy away from games/design choices that require more complex input options and lots of text when they have consoles in mind.

They use the same USB ports, so why don't Microsoft and Sony just allow you to plug them in? Does it cost more?

 

[Ash]

Secondly, JA2 is a poor example of consoles holding back gameplay depth. Much of the keyboard input is shortcuts. Most cRPGs, strategy games and the like can be played EXCLUSIVELY with the cursor, and often are. There are better examples of consoles holding back gameplay depth on a high level than a lack of fucking shortcuts.

Yes, mouse cursor. Consoles don't have those. And onscreen buttons are for n00bs and disabled people. Don't try and suggest many people played JA2 to completion without using KB shortcuts.

You're obviously a raving ignorant shitlord. Try having an informed opinion before you spill your garbage. RTS, Simulators and general CURSOR-driven games do exist on consoles by the dozen, how fucking uninformed about gaming as a whole are you? Heck there's a screenshot and mention of one such game (Tropico 4) in this very thread. Oh, I forgot, you lack reading comprehension.

And yeah, as has been pointed out, consoles can have Mouse and Keyboard, not that it is of dire importance, even in cursor driven games. Better, yes, but not game-breaking without. Otherwise games like The Sims wouldn't exist and sell well on consoles.

 

[Severian Silk]

RTS, Simulators and general CURSOR-driven games do exist on consoles by the dozen, how fucking uninformed about gaming as a whole are you?

Name 12 RTSs without checking Wikipedia first. (Handhelds with stylus/touchscreen don't count.)

 

[Santander02]

Every cod game has prone and they're on consoles, s

Got me on Cod, still no lean tho

most battlefield games. BF4 and BF1 have lean on consoles, rainbow six siege has lean and prone on consoles.

Wat? BF4 and One have this shitty "contextual leaning'" thing instead of a simple, hassle free key press, as far stupid consolized interfaces being forced on PC gamers due to devs not bothering to implement proper keyboard controls goes this hits right home

rainbow six siege has lean and prone on consoles.

I haven't played siege but from what I've read it forces you to aim before being able to lean on consoles, but blessedly this was not forced on PC gamers, so that's okay I guess, won't be surprised if they force it on PC for the next game tho'.


Anyway, Lean/prone are actually small apples in the grand scheme of things, consolization is at it's most damaging when it comes to interfaces, smaller game levels, number of enemies, ai, and catering to the perceived lowest common denominators in the market.

No halo game has lean or prone

Umm yes? I never said they did, that's the point

 

[Ash]

RTS, Simulators and general CURSOR-driven games do exist on consoles by the dozen, how fucking uninformed about gaming as a whole are you?

Name 12 RTSs without checking Wikipedia first. (Handhelds with stylus don't count.)

Lol, you just checked wikipedia yourself, so now you're informed. Good.

RTS is a PC-centric genre. It's more suited to the mouse and keyboard, but there's been plenty games of that nature on consoles throughout history, many of which have been well received. It's more than viable even without a mouse and keyboard plug-in, that's the point, while you have claimed it's impossible which has now been disproved. Nothing more to it than that.

 

[Severian Silk]

Lol, you just checked wikipedia yourself, so now you're informed. Good.

No, I didn't.

RTS is a PC-centric genre. It's more suited to the mouse and keyboard, but there's been plenty games of that nature on consoles throughout history, many of which have been well received. It's do-able, that's the point, while you have claimed it's impossible which has now been disproved. Nothing more to it than that.

I didn't say it was impossible. Just like it's not impossible to reduce the number of gamepad buttons from ~16 to ~8 plus a shift button and still play the same games.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Theme Park is a dope RTS/strategy that I played originally on the PS1. I just thought it was another game at the time. :D