Console limitations - How much truth in such claims?

[Ash]

Its more than possible to have a pure hack & slash game with no platforming or puzzles and rely solely on its combat system, it would just need a better combat system than GOW. That we can agree on.

It probably wouldn't be a game I'd enjoy unless the combat is truly revolutionary. Haven't you ever heard the saying "variety is the spice of life"? Furthermore, as I said before, the game elements are almost always designed to bounce off of each other and add further depth and variety, e.g fighting during platforming segments, a boss where you need to climb up to his weak point,, puzzles rewarding a max hp increase. It throws new challenges and events at the player as opposed to slashing and dodging over and over in a flat plane arena.
Less is only more in specific contexts. Otherwise more is more, by definition.

 

[Santander02]

Crysis to Crysis 2 comes to mind, we went from open ended levels with lots of soldiers, vehicles and flying enemies, to constrained city blocks, firefights set up as consecutive set pieces, washed out textures and the previously flying enemies mysteriously donning humanoid exosuits that turn them into "normal" two legged grunts. No matter how much you might go about "good design" when you go from having a few gigabytes of memory to work with to having to cram a "next gen" game into a console with 512mb of ram corners will have to be cut.

EDIT: Oh yeah and replacing the ability to lean and go prone with a shitty first person cover system, for fuck's sake...

 

[sullynathan]

Crysis and Crysis 2 ran on an Xbox 360.

It probably wouldn't be a game I'd enjoy unless the combat is truly revolutionary. Haven't you ever heard the saying "variety is the spice of life"? Furthermore, as I said before, the game elements are almost always designed to bounce off of each other and add further depth and variety, e.g fighting during platforming segments, a boss where you need to climb up to his weak point,, puzzles rewarding a max hp increase. It throws new challenges and events at the player as opposed to slashing and dodging over and over in a flat plane arena.
Less is only more in specific contexts. Otherwise more is more, by definition.

There's devil may cry, ninja Gaiden and shadow of the colossus for a few examples.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

I don't think there is much truth to it. Even if a game is developed for PC, 99% of developers are not going to develop it for the 1% of PC gamers that even own a very high-end gaming PC, thus you are essentially getting the same "limitations" in the long run.

I mean, is Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together limited? Final Fantasy Tactics? The Suikoden series? I could go on and on as there are PLENTY of interesting, deep and complex RPGs that have released on consoles over the last 25 years.

Just enjoy games for what they are and play all sorts of RPGs on PC, console, whatever.

 

[Ash]

Crysis and Crysis 2 ran on an Xbox 360.

It probably wouldn't be a game I'd enjoy unless the combat is truly revolutionary. Haven't you ever heard the saying "variety is the spice of life"? Furthermore, as I said before, the game elements are almost always designed to bounce off of each other and add further depth and variety, e.g fighting during platforming segments, a boss where you need to climb up to his weak point,, puzzles rewarding a max hp increase. It throws new challenges and events at the player as opposed to slashing and dodging over and over in a flat plane arena.
Less is only more in specific contexts. Otherwise more is more, by definition.

There's devil may cry, ninja Gaiden and shadow of the colossus for a few examples.

Not very observant, are you?

You missed the point regarding the Crysis woes, and Devil May Cry and Ninja Gaiden both do feature genre/gameplay style blending, most notably platforming and puzzle elements, but also minor resource conservation/management and exploration/navigation challenges. Heck the original DMC even had this weird totally out of place and not very well executed swimming segment.

The very first thing you do in Ninja Gaiden is a series of platforming challenges. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fswF7LuYNGo

Might have to do a replay soon as that was a pretty damn good game and hard as nails.

 

[sullynathan]

Not very observant, are you?

You missed the point regarding the Crysis woes, and Devil May Cry and Ninja Gaiden both do feature genre/gameplay style blending, most notably platforming and puzzle elements, but also minor resource conservation and exploration/navigation challenges. Heck the original DMC even had this weird totally out of place and not very well executed swimming segment.

The very first thing you do in Ninja Gaiden is a series of platforming challenges. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fswF7LuYNGo

I was replying to Santander02 about Crysis.

Ninja Gaiden black from what I played wasn't a platformer, you just had ninja tricks when you ran on walls.

DMC 1 did not have any puzzles and the swimming section was pretty short.

 

[Ash]

Ninja Gaiden black from what I played wasn't a platformer, you just had ninja tricks when you ran on walls.

Definitely not very observant. It's ~30-40% platformer, and why wouldn't it be? The original from the 80s was a platformer-action game.

And DMC did have puzzle elements. Note I said puzzle elements, not straight up puzzles.

 

[Dev_Anj]

The very first thing you do in Ninja Gaiden is a series of platforming challenges. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fswF7LuYNGo

If this is supposed to reinforce your point about Ninja Gaiden having considerable platforming, then it's quite weak. Yes, it does open up with platforming, but the platforming is quite simplistic and really not too far off Assassin's Creed's semi automated platforming. 3 minutes in, and most of the game is hack and slash combat. The only platforming that seems to require a bit of good timing are the climbs and some of the wall running, but that's not enough to call it a full fledged platformer.

I know you're going to react sharply now about me judging a game without playing it, amongst other attempts at showing me down, so I'll not bother elaborating any further.

 

[sullynathan]

Definitely not very observant. It's ~30-40% platformer, and why wouldn't it be? The original from the 80s was a platformer-action game.

And DMC did have puzzle elements. Note I said puzzle elements, not straight up puzzles

Because the 3D ninja Gaiden games aren't the 2D ones.

What we're those puzzle elements in DMC?

 

[Ash]

Stop being dumb. The game opens with platforming as its tutorial, and it is a reoccurring form of gameplay throughout the game, with some segments getting p.hardcore.

Here's one example of DMC puzzle elements: there's a statue that shoots fireballs at you. To progress, you have to destroy said statue. You're given a cryptic/riddle passage of text and from it you can conclude that you need to hit the fireball back at the statue with a well timed slash to destroy it. There's a number of things like that across the game, usually beginning with a vague passage of text.

 

[Achilles]

As has been already pointed out, the problem with consoles today isn't their hardware but their audience. The last generation had laughably low amounts of RAM so most games were heavily compromised compared to what could be achieved on PC. Current consoles have weak processors and graphics cards but they have enough memory so designing for them isn't as constricting.

The actual problem is that consoles, being mass market products, are popular among the masses and the masses only want action, popamole and sports games. Chasing that audience means dumbing down your game as much as possible. If you examine every game series that transitioned from PC to multiplatform you will witness the dumbing down process in all its glory. Thankfully the rise of digital distribution allows developers to target niche audiences so I don't care how dumb big games get as long as there is a steady stream of more thoughtful games.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Sports games are the opposite of dumbed down. Have you seen them lately? NBA 2K has more advanced calculations, analytics and built-in features than 99% of RPGs. Same with Madden. You could literally play NBA 2K and use it as a real-life scouting device.

The "console peasant" thing is way overblown. RPGs went away from the 2 major consoles but handhelds still have tons of them, ranging from some more "hardcore" RPGs like tactics RPGs on the PSP to Wizardry-style crawlers on the Nintendo DS. There are plenty there, and limitations are not a bad thing because limitations breed creativity.

The thing is, someone needs to make RPGs popular again on the 2 major consoles. By InXile targeting them, as well as Larian, etc., that is going to help A LOT. Xbox and Playstation will likely start having more RPG choices once these take off and do well, showing that console RPGs are still a viable market.

As someone who played consoles a lot and still does, it's a good thing. Xbox 360 had some great RPG exclusives, and even Wii had a couple beastly titles. It won't take much to awaken the sleeping Xbox/PS RPG market again, just watch.

 

[Severian Silk]

Controler button limitations are also overstated. For example, Left stick = WASD + Walk key, and is way deeper than that. Variable walking/run speed and considerably more directions than WASD eight-directional movement.
Buttons are also pressure sensitive, adding specialized gameplay depth not possible on PC.
Furthermore double tap, on-hold input and other possible methods provide additional input not understood by the uninitiated.

You are a moron.

http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Jagged_Alliance_2/Controls
http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Descent:_FreeSpace_-_The_Great_War/Controls

 

[JarlFrank]

If you want to know what console limitations are, play Thief: Deadly Shadows and Deus Ex: Invisible War.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Those games were aimed at a mass audience, not just a console audience. The "limitation" in this case is that the developers and publishers didn't want to create niche games.

Thankfully we have the indies and Kickstarters making some good RPGs for PC.

 

[Machocruz]

All I know is I'm tired of quest markers, Ubisoft style maps with icons all over them telling you where every piece of content is, X/E to open, and other such things we didn't need in the 90s and early 2000s. I hate modern HUD design, basically. There are better ways.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

I agree, Machocruz. But again, you're talking about reaching a mainstream audience vs. a niche audience nowadays. I guess we should just be happy we get indies and Kickstarter RPGs that serve the niche market more.

 

[Severian Silk]

I haven't personally tried it, but I'm sure playing D:OS with gamepad also sucks compared to K&M.

I will start a poll if you feel the need to argue with me.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

We played D:OS in local co-op with 2 controllers for 140 hours. It was great.

Keyboard+mouse is my preference but nowadays you can include the same controls with a controller-based UI.

 

[Machocruz]

Hopefully there will be that open world RPG with less heavy handed design sensibilities that will break big and show we don't need all the hand holding crap. It just feels good to play something like M&M4, Gothic, or Morrowind and know that your progress in their worlds is in your own hands.

And bring back swimming as a skill.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Agreed, Machocruz. I'm still waiting for a real "competitor" to TES, or at least a Morrowind/Gothic-style open-world RPG to be created...

 

[JarlFrank]

Those games were aimed at a mass audience, not just a console audience. The "limitation" in this case is that the developers and publishers didn't want to create niche games.

Thankfully we have the indies and Kickstarters making some good RPGs for PC.

No, the limitation in this case was the ridiculously low RAM of consoles forcing the devs to make tiny as fuck levels compared to the huge sprawlings ones of their predecessors.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

No, the limitation in this case was the ridiculously low RAM of consoles forcing the devs to make tiny as fuck levels compared to the huge sprawlings ones of their predecessors.

Not sure I agree with this. I think it is more of a case of trying to appeal to a wider audience, thus they wanted smaller and more concise levels.

 

[JarlFrank]

The devs themselves admitted that the console limitations were the reason for the tiny levels. Heck, most of the levels are split into different loading zones because even though small, they would still be too large to be loaded entirely on the consoles of the time.

Hardware limitations of consoles being responsible for the small levels of T:DS and DX:IW is pretty much a proven fact, not speculation. The people who made the games said so themselves. And the loading screens within the levels are further proof for the fact.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Okay, but still, why didn't they attempt to fix that during development? There are games on consoles that have huge, sprawling levels with less loading screens. Heck, Xenoblade Chronicles on the Wii is a pretty enormous "open-world" type RPG, with very large levels.

I don't know, but that seems a bit like an excuse to me. Even if they have to have loading screens, creating a large level shouldn't be that much of a problem. Perhaps they focused on graphical fidelity too much and other aspects rather than the level design.