Bethesda's Impact on RPGs

[MetalCraze]

Bioware was more popular, sure, but then again, game developers strive for profit, and targeting "casual gamers" yields such profit. By doing just that, Bethesda has overtaken Bioware in popularity and sales figures. More companies will start following Bethesda's example, the trend, and stop producing quality games. Bioware itself will succumb to this vile force of change.

Yes - but devs understand that success of F3 lies in it being a shooter, not having a gimmick RPG elements. Check Youtube - how many videos are actually showing "dialogues" and not HOLY SHIT I BLEW THAT NPC WITH 40 MINES (and because he is unkillable NPC he still survived)

Fallout and BG2 had legend status with whoever had played them. Fallout for one, did not do well by the "casual gamer." Show me evidence of mind-boggling sales across the board for said games, and you'll have me convinced of your arguments. The "casual gamers" find the legend status of Fallout and BG2 quaint nuances, and don't take them (or people who play such games) seriously.

There were no "casual" gamers on PC at that time. At that time the main audience of PC was people with brains while all other retards were on consoles, wanking to their piss poor FF. And nobody gave a fuck about consoles. Except people which ported PC games to consoles and not vice versa like today.

 

[Tigranes]

At that time the main audience of PC was people with brains while all other retards were on consoles

Hahahahahaha

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

Bethesda is popular. Fallout 3 is popular. Fallout 3 has dialogue. Dialogue becomes popular.

Doesn't matter if dialogue in games had existed before. BETHESDA IS SO POPULAR IT TRUMPS ALL ELSE.

That's the most flawed logic I've seen in a long time. People play F3 not because of dialogues but because Bethesda took a game with dialogues and dumbed it down to a shooter with dialogues as a gimmick - and people play it because it is a shooter.
Nobody will magically start doing good RPGs because of this. Bioware was even more popular than Bethesda - and their games always sold millions on consoles - nobody started doing more shit RPGs because Halo still sells more.
Fallout had a legend status, even BG2 had a legend status - nobody started doing better games because of this, quite the contrary.

Come on now we all know FO 3 sold well because its an RPG not a shooter. At best its a mediocre FPS, as a 'console RPG' its as good as it gets. Fable 1&2, Mass Effect, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Oblivion, and Morrowind all outsold the typical FPS by hundreds of thousands or millions. Morrowind started the western RPG console ching. That is Bethesda's legend. Seriously what was the last western RPG before Morrowind? Pool of Radiance on the NES? I cant think of any other besides maybe Deus Ex on the PS 2 and that was underhyped and didnt sell. Bethesda deserves credit for having the common sense to move on the JRPGs. I remember quite a few people on Iplys forums, fatbabies, and all over the net that doubted questioned if an RPG could sell on a console without anime.

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

There's also the fact that Fallout was never (as far as I know) released on consoles, and the version of the BG series that came out on console was completely different than the game that came out on the PC.

Ask non-RPG geeks if they remember the Baldur's Gate series, and half of 'em will say they vaguely remember it, and if you question 'em, almost all of 'em will describe Dark Alliance, not BG2.

I never played Dark Alliance, but from what I have read, it was no RPG.

Qwinn

Dark Alliance wasnt even a decent action game much less an RPG.

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

There were no "casual" gamers on PC at that time. At that time the main audience of PC was people with brains while all other retards were on consoles, wanking to their piss poor FF. And nobody gave a fuck about consoles. Except people which ported PC games to consoles and not vice versa like today.

The PC has always been the mainstay of the casual gamer... errr minesweeper, sims, chess etc etc.

 

[Liberal]

"go and bring me 10 dicks of wild dogs"

This was my favourite quest in the whole game.

 

[MetalCraze]

Come on now we all know FO 3 sold well because its an RPG not a shooter

It isn't a RPG. It's a game where everything built on a shooter mechanics. In RPGs stats influence something - in F3 stats don't influence combat at all other than adding useless bonuses without which you are still ubermensch.

At best its a mediocre FPS, as a 'console RPG' its as good as it gets

Halo is mediocre FPS too. And? And as a console "RPG" it is as good as it gets because everything else there is shit. Shouldn't be a PC problem yes?

Fable 1&2, Mass Effect, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Oblivion, and Morrowind all outsold the typical FPS by hundreds of thousands or millions.

Yes - only when combined.
Average console shooter Halo 3 sold 8 mln of copies, while Oblivion sold only like 2-2.5 mln copies. Hey and lets add GTA games to the competition which really outsell average console shooters by being better console shooters.
Now let's not forget that Oblivion, Mass Effect and Jade Empire are not RPGs, but action games with stats.

Morrowind started the western RPG console ching.

Yes - and it was shit.

I cant think of any other besides maybe Deus Ex on the PS 2 and that was underhyped and didnt sell.

Deus Ex was ported to PS2 only 2 years after its release. It was too good for dumb console market, where dying in game is a design flaw.

Bethesda deserves credit for having the common sense to move on the JRPGs. I remember quite a few people on Iplys forums, fatbabies, and all over the net that doubted questioned if an RPG could sell on a console without anime.

Again what does PC has to do with it? Why should I give Bethesda a credit for doing something on a piece of shit platform - releasing a game that when compared to PC games is shit, while compared to console games it is good - which in turn ruined PC market?

Holy shit all hail Bethesda for showing everyone that you can produce dumb multiplatform and sell it on PC instead of producing a good game.

The PC has always been the mainstay of the casual gamer... errr minesweeper, sims, chess etc etc.

There were quotes around the "casual" word for a reason. "Casual" means dumb kids who cry that they need to use their brains to kill some monster and spend 5 seconds thinking where to jump next instead of pressing O to make Mirror's Edge show them where to jump.
And besides minesweeper would be too hardcore for these.

 

[Qwinn]

In RPGs stats influence something - in F3 stats don't influence combat at all other than adding useless bonuses without which you are still ubermensch.

Oh please, this is ridiculous. If you want to gripe "The game is too easy", that's one thing, but to say stats don't affect combat is absurd. By that logic, PS:T isn't an RPG either because combat in it is also pretty damn easy and you can kick everything's ass without ever putting a single point into a single combat-related stat.

Qwinn

 

[MetalCraze]

In PS:T stats influence everything.
In F3 they don't. They don't influence melee combat at all and they don't really influence a ranged combat.

Besides combat in PS:T isn't the main part - PS:T is all about the story, writing, dialogues and characters.

Fallout 3 is all about killing stuff.

I believe it is easy to comprehend, no?

 

[Qwinn]

Hold on. Are you actually being pedantic to the point of attempting to draw a meaningful distinction between "stats" and "skills derived from stats"?

Qwinn

 

[Wyrmlord]

RPGs are dead, and not returning. The genre died with Vampire the Masquerade - Bloodlines.

Mask Of The Betrayer did not happen.

 

[Liberal]

RPGs are dead, and not returning. The genre died with Vampire the Masquerade - Bloodlines.

KotOR2?

 

[MetalCraze]

RPGs are dead, and not returning. The genre died with Vampire the Masquerade - Bloodlines.

Mask Of The Betrayer did not happen.

MotB is a mere left-over of the once mighty genre. There are no MotBs in the future planned.

Hold on. Are you actually being pedantic to the point of attempting to draw a meaningful distinction between "stats" and "skills derived from stats"?

There are no skills derived from stats in Oblivion, Jade Empire, ME and F3.
You just click on it until it dies.

 

[Mogar]

Yeah, one of the things I'm worried about is that this may be the final punch to the RPG genre. Fallout 3 and Oblivion have shown developers that shallow action games with stats can net major profits. The term RPG may soon become a misnomer, with more and more of these action "RPGs" being released.

 

[Talonfire]

Morrowind actually has surprisingly good dialogue in parts. Well, monologues, not dialogues, but still. The stuff Vivec talks about it when you get Wraithguard, for instance. Light years away from Oblivion. Probably because the format meant Beth's loremonkeys could just write a whole lot of lore, rather than try and make it all cinematic.

You're not one of those people from the Bethesda forums who think that Dagoth Ur is the greatest RPG villain ever are you?

 

[Mogar]

Morrowind actually has surprisingly good dialogue in parts. Well, monologues, not dialogues, but still. The stuff Vivec talks about it when you get Wraithguard, for instance. Light years away from Oblivion. Probably because the format meant Beth's loremonkeys could just write a whole lot of lore, rather than try and make it all cinematic.

You're not one of those people from the Bethesda forums who think that Dagoth Ur is the greatest RPG villain ever are you?

Well, they aren't the best villains, but they are different from the usual cartoon evil you usually get in games. Dagoth Ur himself politely conversed with you and had great respect for the PC, unlike most villains, who are snide and believe themselves to be so much better then every one else. And one of his generals, Dagoth Gares I believe, invites you to talk to him over a cup of brandy and tries to dissuade you from your current course. Of course, being Bethesda, you don't have a choice and have to attack him. I think the main thing is, the bad guys never came off as being really that bad themselves. Obviously, what they were trying to do was bad, but they were actually alright monsters/creatures, vs the good guys, who were manipulative Imperialist or intollerant religious nuts.

 

[Qwinn]

Obviously, what they were trying to do was bad, but they were actually alright monsters/creatures, vs the good guys, who were manipulative Imperialist or intollerant religious nuts.

Show me an RPG where there is -any- genuinely religious character that isn't portrayed as an intolerant nut, and -then- we'll be talking some originality.

I've always found it kinda amusing that -some- cliches, people just never seem to get tired of.

Qwinn

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

It isn't a RPG. It's a game where everything built on a shooter mechanics. In RPGs stats influence something - in F3 stats don't influence combat at all other than adding useless bonuses without which you are still ubermensch.

In a world where Final Fantasy is an RPG and BGDA is an action RPG FO 3 is an RPG. It might not be one to you but it is to the gen public. If people wanted a pure shooter they would buy one. There are plenty out there.

Halo is mediocre FPS too. And? And as a console "RPG" it is as good as it gets because everything else there is shit. Shouldn't be a PC problem yes?

Halo 1 by typical standards was a good if not great game for its time and it had a megaton of marketing. Again it was not typical. Red Faction 2 was a typical FPS and it was outsold by all of the RPGs I named.

Yes - only when combined.
Average console shooter Halo 3 sold 8 mln of copies, while Oblivion sold only like 2-2.5 mln copies. Hey and lets add GTA games to the competition which really outsell average console shooters by being better console shooters.
Now let's not forget that Oblivion, Mass Effect and Jade Empire are not RPGs, but action games with stats.

Again the Halo series and GTA are anything but average especially on the economic front. Also everyone has their definition of RPG. By my definition its the main theme of the game. If the main theme is roleplaying then its an RPG.

Deus Ex was ported to PS2 only 2 years after its release. It was too good for dumb console market, where dying in game is a design flaw.

If Sony published it as their answer to the Xbox western RPG it would have sold half a million instead it was another shooter on the shelves.

Again what does PC has to do with it? Why should I give Bethesda a credit for doing something on a piece of shit platform - releasing a game that when compared to PC games is shit, while compared to console games it is good - which in turn ruined PC market?

The 'golden age' of the CRPG was hurt because it was just on one platform. Its not so much that I think Bethesda deserves praise. To me they made a common sense decision that was long overdo. In contrast to Ipply's BGDA and FOpos or Atari's D&D heores Bethesda might look savy. If you ask me Ipply and Atari are just stupid. Also its not like this killed the PC market. The PC market seems to be growing. 2ksports games are finnaly on the PC.

There were quotes around the "casual" word for a reason. "Casual" means dumb kids who cry that they need to use their brains to kill some monster and spend 5 seconds thinking where to jump next instead of pressing O to make Mirror's Edge show them where to jump.
And besides minesweeper would be too hardcore for these.

That kid has a better chance of patronizing a game that you like, like I guess NWN MoTB if it was multi than the nth million soccer mom playing minesweeper using a dusty Sims case as a coaster.

 

[Mogar]

Obviously, what they were trying to do was bad, but they were actually alright monsters/creatures, vs the good guys, who were manipulative Imperialist or intollerant religious nuts.

Show me an RPG where there is -any- genuinely religious character that isn't portrayed as an intolerant nut, and -then- we'll be talking some originality.

I've always found it kinda amusing that -some- cliches, people just never seem to get tired of.

Qwinn

Well, with us fighting a bunch of crazed religious nuts and the lulz which result from the hypocrisy of religion taken to the extreme, I believe this cliche will never get old.

 

[Qwinn]

-Some- religions are that way, sure. It's when -every- religion gets depicted that way that my eyes start to glaze over with boredom. Specially when the same people who don't mind that cliche at all then complain about how those religious people they deride see the world in "only black and white".

How about a game that depicts... an intolerant atheist nut? Cause I've met quite a few of those in my time too.

Qwinn

 

[Mogar]

-Some- religions are that way, sure. It's when -every- religion gets depicted that way that my eyes start to glaze over with boredom. Specially when the same people who don't mind that cliche at all then complain about how those religious people they deride see the world in "only black and white".

Qwinn

Every religion has both crazies and moderates. It doesn't even have to be religious. Anything can have nuts. A realistic portrayal would be one where there are a few fundamentalist, but they are the loudest and intimidate everyone else.

 

[Kavax]

Show me an RPG where there is -any- genuinely religious character that isn't portrayed as an intolerant nut, and -then- we'll be talking some originality.

What about the Godsmen in PS: T, or some of the Panarii in Arcanum?

 

[Qwinn]

I don't know that I consider the Godsmen to be "genuinely religious" in any conventional sense. More of a philosophy, really. After all... who do they worship?

And I still haven't totally finished off Arcanum, so I can't speak to how the Panarri are treated in the long run... but from what I did see, that didn't strike me as a standard religion either. Were they worshipping any particular deity, or just devoted to welcoming some ancient hero's reincarnation?

Qwinn

 

[Kavax]

Well, the Godsmen are similar to Buddhists in that they don't worship a particular deity, but rather a set of teachings and a philosophy of self-enlightment and that both treat their teachers in a deity-like fashion, and the Panarii consider Nasrudin to be a Messiah-like figure. Extracts of their sacred book are similar to the Christian Bible. You do discover that their beliefs are built on a masquerade, but the Panarii themselves aren't portrayed as particularly villainous (More like the opposite, since Virgil and Alexander can be great allies to a good-aligned PC).

 

[TheWesDude]

well, first off, bethesda would actually have to MAKE a RPG and not a:
Action RPG
FPS with RPG elements
Strategy game with RPG elements


notice the trend? its always RPG second or just simply RPG elements.