Incline Battle Brothers + Beasts & Exploration, Warriors of the North and Blazing Deserts DLC Thread

[Alienman]

Maybe we get to know in a GDC post-mortem in 20 years

 

[MRY]

mid-high five-figure amount per Overhype bro per year. This would make it what we call a labor of love, as differentiated from the type of labor where you get paid a market rate for the work you do.

I'm pretty sure "mid-high five-figure" salary is above market rate for entry level game industry positions.

 

[Excidium II]

I don't have any inside information about the game, but here are some general reasons why not to enable modding unless it's economically feasible to support it:

Modding support without full source code release generally requires you to make reasonable abstractions while you are writing the game whereby there will be a large and meaningful portion of content available in an intelligible fashion for extension, addition, modification, and so forth. If you don't do that because it's easier to create content that's entangled with your source code, then either you have to spend a lot of time refactoring your work to make it more transparent, or you have to open your source code for modders.

Modding support with full source code risks the possibility of some jerk posting a copy of your game on his own site. Or (more likely) some modder spends some number of hundreds of hours on his mod (which is a full version of the game) and then makes it available to owners of the game, except due to hiccups with Steam Workshop, it's not available. So then copies start circulating on the broader Internet, available not just to owners but everyone. You can get an injunction and pay a law firm some amount of money and get it taken down, and you can generate a lot of ill-will because you're fighting against some dev who spent a lot of time making your game more awesome. Or you can just choose not to have this problem. "Illegal copies of an electronic game? My word!," you may say, dropping your monocle. "What is this world coming to? The next thing you know, they'll invent a way to illegally download CD music!" And, sure, piracy is always an option for customers, but as a developer you don't want to make decisions that could cause illegal copies to be the only option for reaching desirable content.

Modding also increases the number of bug reports that come in, because users can't differentiate between mod bugs and base game bugs. Or (alternatively) mods expose bugs that really were always there in the base game, but were never expressed in the content you had. The average user isn't going to mention that he's using the Romanceable Brothers Mod when he's complaining about why your programmers (he thinks you have more than one) couldn't eliminate crashes in five years of development time. He's just going to leave a negative review on Steam about the noob fucks (again, he thinks you have more than one noob fuck) at Overhype.

Also, if your programmer, in a fit of ill-advised altruism, should be so bold and so foolish as to make himself accessible to the modders, his inbox is going to be stuffed full of abstract questions about code he wrote 1-5 years ago. At the very least he needs to document instructions about how to build the thing, which might be as easy as "clone repository, press button" and might be a 39-step process starting with "So first, you're going to have to recompile these utilities. Also, heads up, you're going to need a remote laptop on your network named b1487." One-man dev teams, especially when the one man is a virtuoso programmer, tend to do really fucking weird things without even noticing them, which will likely astound everyone else in the world. This applies not just to your programmer, but the sometimes wonderful and sometimes insane programmers who are fans of your game and want to mod it. Does your game compile on Red Hat distributions from 2003? You may not know the answer to this question, but some helpful fan of yours in Central Asia may decide to write to tell you the answer. (Spoilers: it doesn't.)

You get grumbly modders (who had previously been excited product advocates) if he ignores them, and you get a huge hit to that programmer's productivity if he does. "Oh, but you can just disclaim that you won't provide support for modders!", you think. That'll probably work really well, because if there's one thing that diehard fans of PC games are known for, it's how reasonable they are.

When all's said and done, Overhype will have grossed $2-3m from this game that took them five years to make, which (after paying Steam, artists, composers, office space if they decided to have an office, any promotional activities like showing up at conventions, dues to terrible quasi-racketeering business entities prevalent in Germany that are prereqs for participating in the above) works out to some mid-high five-figure amount per Overhype bro per year. This would make it what we call a labor of love, as differentiated from the type of labor where you get paid a market rate for the work you do. In their shoes, I would also want to move on.

whole bunch of non-issues/situations that happen regardless.

 

[TT1]

This game had A LOT of potential. Really, really sad.

 

[Zanzoken]

It's okay to be a little disappointed but some of you guys are really overreacting.

Battle Bros is not "abandoned" -- it's finished. The game is fun, the devs feel they have achieved their vision, and as far as I know there is nothing that was promised to the community that hasn't been delivered.

I have no problem with calling devs out on their bullshit -- and in today's game industry there is plenty -- but Overhype seems in the clear to me. They've earned the right to move on to a new project.

 

[thesheeep]

Because they're dumb. I'd make game source code available day one. The sooner it's available the sooner some random nerds will make tools and expand the game well beyond the original scope, keeping it relevant and sales coming for years.

The reason game companies don't do it is mainly because a) they have integrated 3rd party stuff that has their own licenses and thus wouldn't work b) they want to milk and dime with dlc and free content from fans sounds like a bad deal

Well, I wouldn't call them dumb, but that is a good reason I guess to release the code.

You don't have to release the source code. They could do it like Xenonauts did and give a select few source code access (plus NDA). Worked out fine for Xenonauts, CE is a pretty big improvement.

 

[Kayerts]

Or (more likely) some modder spends some number of hundreds of hours on his mod (which is a full version of the game) and then makes it available to owners of the game, except due to hiccups with Steam Workshop, it's not available. So then copies start circulating on the broader Internet, available not just to owners but everyone. You can get an injunction and pay a law firm some amount of money and get it taken down, and you can generate a lot of ill-will because you're fighting against some dev who spent a lot of time making your game more awesome. Or you can just choose not to have this problem. "Illegal copies of an electronic game? My word!," you may say, dropping your monocle. "What is this world coming to? The next thing you know, they'll invent a way to illegally download CD music!" And, sure, piracy is always an option for customers, but as a developer you don't want to make decisions that could cause illegal copies to be the only option for reaching desirable content.

Is there any example of this scenario that you described having happened before?

Not really. Most people who aren't genius visionary Steam posters seem to think that open-sourcing your pay-to-play game is an obviously bad move, so it's a pretty uncommon thing to do, successfully or not. Most cases when it's happened have been when the game's been out for years and future revenue from the game appears insignificant, hence any revenue so sacrificed is of low concern. There's a list here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_open-source_video_games

List starts at 1978, and there are 112 games on it. Most of them were open source from the start, though. If there are any success stories that started pay-to-play and then experienced a revenue spike after open sourcing, I'd be curious to hear; I'd guess the total number of such cases in gaming history is 0-5, bias toward 0.

I'm pretty sure "mid-high five-figure" salary is above market rate for entry level game industry positions.

Depends where you are, but, sure, it's not especially bad for German game devs. It seems low for mean total compensation for years 1 through 5 while working as a game company founder. (I.e., long hours, ill-specified duties, greater financial risk, etc.) My intuition is that most 3-man teams who could make $2-3m over five years on a gaming company could make several times that doing something else.

 

[Stavrophore]

My intuition is that most 3-man teams who could make $2-3m over five years on a gaming company could make several times that doing something else.

Lol you have to be joking. Making 2-3 mln by 5 years of work of a 3 person team is a great achievement, considering they didnt need starting capital -just a decent PCs with installed free IDE. To get 2-3 mln out of stock market with 5 years, you would need like at least 600-700 thousand dollars if you are a stock market genius and can sustain yearly gains on 30% level without loss. Dont kid yourself they made great money earning well above average earnings of a backend programmer -100-120 thousand yearly is senior level earnings.

 

[Prime Junta]

Yeah. Capitalism doesn't work like that. Breaking even is already an achievement; making a few mil in a few years is exceptional.

 

[Rahdulan]

Abandoned? Do people really expect every game to be supported in perpetuity like their latest sandbox survival? Game was released and it received some post-launch patch support. Sure, modding would be nice for this kind game, but people are overreacting to the extreme. I'm reminded of Darkest Dungeon bitchfest except that was over "how dare these developer change their own game in a way I don't support" nonsense.

Jesus.

 

[Jimmious]

I think the main issue is their lack of communication. They could have made all these decisions clearer and easier to accept if they talked about them a bit more before throwing an announcement like that.
But I guess they also learn as they go, it must not be easy to go from an unknown indie developer in Early Access to an indie studio that created a cult classic with a bunch of nerds waiting to get stuff for it

 

[Sarissofoi]

When I describe what is happening as "radio silence", I am not exaggerating.

This guy is right.
Some questions were raised repeatably by different peoples and all we get was "static noise". Seriously. That happen with other issues also. Its like they do not want answer or maybe even they do not know answer - maybe even both and well it was pretty alarming then and look where we are now.
When I get why they do that - as if they say on start that there will be no mod support some people would probably just pass by and do not buy it - I also get some guys who now are angry because they feel that they were lied about it. As it was always no but maybe with vague promise of yes - literally cockteasing that some girls do to get your favors for free(in this case access to your wallet).
Of course blame the thirsty guys who could not seen through this bullshit even if you warn them and I stated long time that there will be no mod support and it looks I am right(And no happy about it). Still it was cheap trick but almost always effective.
Its like current world is full of shady merchants who tell potential client what he want to hear and not mention things that potentially could be a deal breaker. Well it was probably always like that.
Anyway there is also Early Access issue and how game changes from build and build and essentially get bloated by unnecessary additions where actual content wasn't increasing much. Whole 'living world' idea that get discarded - which is my real only gripe.
The game isn't bad, its worth the money. I am not in the 'I want my money back' crowd - still 'Glad that I do not buy supporter edition' company. Still its feel like a waste as game mechanics begs for being modular and modable or for additional content THAT WE WILL NEVER SEE.
Sadly the code must be pretty messy if devs hide it so cunningly. Hope that their German version of space hulk would fare better.
Well, it was nice to meet all you folks - have fun.

 

[Jimmious]

The game isn't bad, its worth the money. I am not in the 'I want my money back' crowd - still 'Glad that I do not buy supporter edition' company

Dude, fuck off. You've played more than a thousand hours and you dare talk about "I want my money back" shit ? And you are glad you don't give them 15 bucks more? What an asshole.

 

[Sarissofoi]

The game isn't bad, its worth the money. I am not in the 'I want my money back' crowd - still 'Glad that I do not buy supporter edition' company

Dude, fuck off. You've played more than a thousand hours and you dare talk about "I want my money back" shit ? And you are glad you don't give them 15 bucks more? What an asshole.

It looks like I rustled some Jimmies. Are you sure you read it right way?
But seriously why you are angry? Not that I care anyway.
In short.
They offer mystery box I buy it, do not get what I wanted or expected at first but in the end it wasn't bad.
To be honest I did not get Supporter edition at principle - because it offer a bonus non obtainable by normal means item that is pretty strong.
Wanted to get it on GoG or with no DRM sadly it was only on steam. Plan was that I get supporter one on release when it also was expected to appear on GoG. No reason anymore as I probably will not play it anyway as the 'living world' get lost somewhere and it was main reason of my interest.

 

[Kayerts]

Yeah. Capitalism doesn't work like that. Breaking even is already an achievement; making a few mil in a few years is exceptional.

You're very kind.

If the Overhype bros are satisfied with the success they've had, I'm happy for them. They've certainly learned a lot from this experience, and if they apply it forward, they will certainly take less time on Game 2 and may do comparably or better in sales, too.

 

[Brancaleone]

When I describe what is happening as "radio silence", I am not exaggerating.

Whole 'living world' idea that get discarded - which is my real only gripe.

I definitely understand that. Personally, I think an even more pressing need was the combat environments, which is the reason why I've been waiting before buying BB (also having little time for playing it), since I wanted first to see what degree of variety battle-maps would reach. Sadly, the response was: none.

I mean, when I was a kid I spend countless hours playing Ufo: Enemy Unknown. I can't imagine myself doing the same if every single combat encounter was with marines and aliens facing off in two lines and then staring shooting at each other.

 

[Jimmious]

The game isn't bad, its worth the money. I am not in the 'I want my money back' crowd - still 'Glad that I do not buy supporter edition' company

Dude, fuck off. You've played more than a thousand hours and you dare talk about "I want my money back" shit ? And you are glad you don't give them 15 bucks more? What an asshole.

It looks like I rustled some Jimmies. Are you sure you read it right way?
But seriously why you are angry? Not that I care anyway.
In short.
They offer mystery box I buy it, do not get what I wanted or expected at first but in the end it wasn't bad.
To be honest I did not get Supporter edition at principle - because it offer a bonus non obtainable by normal means item that is pretty strong.
Wanted to get it on GoG or with no DRM sadly it was only on steam. Plan was that I get supporter one on release when it also was expected to appear on GoG. No reason anymore as I probably will not play it anyway as the 'living world' get lost somewhere and it was main reason of my interest.

All your arguments are fine but sometimes you keep forgetting just how much playtime this specific game has given you I think. That's why I get angry. I hate self-entitled people and you keep doing that while you keep forgetting this basic fact.
I have only played Football Manager over 1000 hours in my life and we are talking about the deepest simulation game by far. You got that from BB which people here claim to be "bare bones". I have already 200+ hours in it.
I understand all the complaints but I think we're forgetting what we got here and focus only on what more we want.

 

[Brancaleone]

The game isn't bad, its worth the money. I am not in the 'I want my money back' crowd - still 'Glad that I do not buy supporter edition' company

Dude, fuck off. You've played more than a thousand hours and you dare talk about "I want my money back" shit ? And you are glad you don't give them 15 bucks more? What an asshole.

It looks like I rustled some Jimmies. Are you sure you read it right way?
But seriously why you are angry? Not that I care anyway.
In short.
They offer mystery box I buy it, do not get what I wanted or expected at first but in the end it wasn't bad.
To be honest I did not get Supporter edition at principle - because it offer a bonus non obtainable by normal means item that is pretty strong.
Wanted to get it on GoG or with no DRM sadly it was only on steam. Plan was that I get supporter one on release when it also was expected to appear on GoG. No reason anymore as I probably will not play it anyway as the 'living world' get lost somewhere and it was main reason of my interest.

All your arguments are fine but sometimes you keep forgetting just how much playtime this specific game has given you I think. That's why I get angry. I hate self-entitled people and you keep doing that while you keep forgetting this basic fact.
I have only played Football Manager over 1000 hours in my life and we are talking about the deepest simulation game by far. You got that from BB which people here claim to be "bare bones". I have already 200+ hours in it.
I understand all the complaints but I think we're forgetting what we got here and focus only on what more we want.

I honestly fail to understand this line of reasoning.
Had ToEE entered a, let's say, two year Early Access phase starting with the release of a glorified combat demo, I'm pretty sure many people would have played that combat demo to death while waiting for the 'real game' to be released.
Let's assume Troika had then released ToEE as merely the improved version of that glorified combat demo, would then all the people who spent a lot of time playing it while waiting for the actual game lose the right to say that the content of the game was lacking? (never mind that the content of ToEE turned out to be shit for entirely different reasons)

Does someone who has wasted thousand of hours on some shitty time-killer have the obligation to state that said time-killer has great content?

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

I definitely understand that. Personally, I think an even more pressing need was the combat environments, which is the reason why I've been waiting before buying BB (also having little time for playing it), since I wanted first to see what degree of variety battle-maps would reach. Sadly, the response was: none.

I mean, when I was a kid I spend countless hours playing Ufo: Enemy Unknown. I can't imagine myself doing the same if every single combat encounter was with marines and aliens facing off in two lines and then staring shooting at each other.

You got forests (occasionally you can get ambushed in those), swamps, snow and hills to fight in.
Also fights against goblins are quite different from fights against undead or nachzerers.

 

[Darth Roxor]

uh-oh

 

[Brancaleone]

I definitely understand that. Personally, I think an even more pressing need was the combat environments, which is the reason why I've been waiting before buying BB (also having little time for playing it), since I wanted first to see what degree of variety battle-maps would reach. Sadly, the response was: none.

I mean, when I was a kid I spend countless hours playing Ufo: Enemy Unknown. I can't imagine myself doing the same if every single combat encounter was with marines and aliens facing off in two lines and then staring shooting at each other.

You got forests (occasionally you can get ambushed in those), swamps, snow and hills to fight in.
Also fights against goblins are quite different from fights against undead or nachzerers.

Maybe youtube LP misrepresent the variety of the fights, because 99% of what I've seen is: two parallel lines in the centre of the maps with different colour tiles, and sometimes a hill or two in the way. Have to say I didn't have time to go through hours and hours of LP's, to be honest.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

I definitely understand that. Personally, I think an even more pressing need was the combat environments, which is the reason why I've been waiting before buying BB (also having little time for playing it), since I wanted first to see what degree of variety battle-maps would reach. Sadly, the response was: none.

I mean, when I was a kid I spend countless hours playing Ufo: Enemy Unknown. I can't imagine myself doing the same if every single combat encounter was with marines and aliens facing off in two lines and then staring shooting at each other.

You got forests (occasionally you can get ambushed in those), swamps, snow and hills to fight in.
Also fights against goblins are quite different from fights against undead or nachzerers.

Maybe youtube LP misrepresent the variety of the fights, because 99% of what I've seen is: two parallel lines in the centre of the maps with different colour tiles, and sometimes a hill or two in the way. Have to say I didn't have time to go through hours and hours of LP's, to be honest.

Quite many players seem to avoid more difficult terrain (and gobbos).

 

[Prime Junta]

BB was the studio's first game. It's a remarkable achievement for that -- not only is it good in its own right, it's virtually bug-free, and they made it in a reasonable time and reasonable budget.

I've no doubt they made tons of mistakes, and learned from them. Wrapping it up and applying what they learned in a whole new game can be a very smart move, smarter than getting bogged down tinkering and expanding this one forever and a day.

Godspeed Overhype. Can't wait to see what you'll come up with next.

 

[Brancaleone]

I definitely understand that. Personally, I think an even more pressing need was the combat environments, which is the reason why I've been waiting before buying BB (also having little time for playing it), since I wanted first to see what degree of variety battle-maps would reach. Sadly, the response was: none.

I mean, when I was a kid I spend countless hours playing Ufo: Enemy Unknown. I can't imagine myself doing the same if every single combat encounter was with marines and aliens facing off in two lines and then staring shooting at each other.

You got forests (occasionally you can get ambushed in those), swamps, snow and hills to fight in.
Also fights against goblins are quite different from fights against undead or nachzerers.

Maybe youtube LP misrepresent the variety of the fights, because 99% of what I've seen is: two parallel lines in the centre of the maps with different colour tiles, and sometimes a hill or two in the way. Have to say I didn't have time to go through hours and hours of LP's, to be honest.

Quite many players seem to avoid more difficult terrain (and gobbos).

I'm not talking about enemy variety (although what I've seen did not exactly blow me away, and that includes the complete set of wolfriders, ambushers, skirmishers and so on), but about combat environments, and I think I've seen all of them. Again, two lines at the same distance, whether in swamp, snow, hill or whatever, basically all the time. Which for me is pretty disappointing, since I got interested in this game because of 1) what Sarissofoi calls 'live world' (I was expecting other mercenary bands competing with you, stealing your missions, being hired to hinder you, and so on); 2) when the developers wrote about having found the way to include multiple tile objects and buildings (I remember thinking "that's what I'm waiting for!").

 

[Jimmious]

Does someone who has wasted thousand of hours on some shitty time-killer have the obligation to state that said time-killer has great content?

If someone "wastes" 1000 hours on something it can't be shitty for that person, unless we are talking about someone that has mental issues of some sort.
I understand someone like Roxor who played the game 20 hours and found out that he doesn't like it and says why(even if I disagree with some of the complaints) but if you play for so long...what the fuck bro, how much more do you want to be satisfied with the content? It's an indie game from 1 programmer, not world of warcraft or sth