Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Pre-Release Thread [EARLY ACCESS RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[LESS T_T]

Yes, they're trolling: https://larian.com/video/Sunday_Funday.mp4

Again, the file has changed but no apparent change in video itself.

• I'm not shellfish
• Issa_squid1
  
• You're shellfish

Most likely they didn't want to reveal new teaser during weekend, because... it's weekend. Who's wandering on the internet in weekend, right?

At least, with that "Issa_squid1", they shared us Michael's favorite meme account:
https://www.instagram.com/squid_devold/

Issa Squid

Norges meme elite
squid-devold.tumblr.com

 

[smaug]

lol

 

[Yosharian]

Some of the "relatively System driven" talk also reminds me of the flak Arkane get with their Dishonored games

If the Dishonored games are 'system-driven' then that's a pretty shit system considering one ability allows you to bypass 95% of the game

 

[Yosharian]

No, because its dumb and isnt integrated into the setting at all. It completely removes any significance of any death and that makes any story or plot nonsensical.

"Someone killed Gorion!?"
Just resurrect him. Whats the big deal?

"Oh someone killed my son, daughter, family, whatever!! Vengance!!! "
Why? Too cheap to pay for a few resurrection scrolls?

Its utterly stupid and should be completely removed, only it wont be because developers listen to mass market and its a convenience feature.

Let's have a look at 3.5 Raise Dead and see if we can find some reasons why Gorion couldn't be just resurrected:

"You restore life to a deceased creature. You can raise a creature that has been dead for no longer than one day per caster level. In addition, the subject’s soul must be free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw.

Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The subject of the spell loses one level (or 1 Hit Die) when it is raised, just as if it had lost a level or a Hit Die to an energy-draining creature. If the subject is 1st level, it loses 2 points of Constitution instead (if this would reduce its Con to 0 or less, it can’t be raised). This level/HD loss or Constitution loss cannot be repaired by any means. A character who died with spells prepared has a 50% chance of losing any given spell upon being raised, in addition to losing spells for losing a level. A spellcasting creature that doesn’t prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) has a 50% chance of losing any given unused spell slot as if it had been used to cast a spell, in addition to losing spell slots for losing a level.

A raised creature has a number of hit points equal to its current Hit Dice. Any ability scores damaged to 0 are raised to 1. Normal poison and normal disease are cured in the process of raising the subject, but magical diseases and curses are not undone. While the spell closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage of most kinds, the body of the creature to be raised must be whole. Otherwise, missing parts are still missing when the creature is brought back to life. None of the dead creature’s equipment or possessions are affected in any way by this spell.

A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be raised by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be raised. The spell cannot bring back a creature that has died of old age.

Material Component
Diamonds worth a total of least 5,000 gp"

- must be cast within a few days of death
- soul must be willing to return
- body must be whole
- killed by death effect prevents raise
- 5000gp cost (!)

Wow it's almost like there are tons of appropriate reasons why Gorion couldn't have been raised

 

[Covenant]

Didn't Baldur's Gate base itself around the second edition rather than 3.5? Not that I know if the Raise Dead mechanics are significantly different in that one, but still, if we're going to dig out the text it may as well be from the right edition.

 

[Yosharian]

Didn't Baldur's Gate base itself around the second edition rather than 3.5? Not that I know if the Raise Dead mechanics are significantly different in that one, but still, if we're going to dig out the text it may as well be from the right edition.

Yes I'm fully aware of that, but my point is that spells often have limiting factors or costs that balance them out. And these are often role-playing factors, because, SHOCK! d&d is a role-playing game!

So acting like death is of no consequence just because the Raise Dead spell exists is just bone-headed.

This is without even considering that it's a 5th level spell, not something any old town cleric is going to have.

As if CHARNAME has a high level cleric and 5000gp available, and Gorion didn't get gibbed into 5000 pieces by Sarevok...

 

[deuxhero]

Eberron, being a campaign setting that actually gives a damn about making day to day life make some semblance of sense (unlike Toril, which has a high enough level Cleric under every rock), makes it so that priests who can cast raise dead are rare and those who can generally don't want to cast it: For the Sovereign Host, death is the natural cycle, while for the Silver Flame you're either a heathen or restoring your life means your soul is no longer powering the sacred flame. To raise the dead you need to either find a priest of a (generally) evil cult, who is still rare (there's only about 1/20 chance a large city has any priest that level, though a metropolis will always have at least 3) or hope you can find someone with the Greater Mark of Healing and shell out 10,000 GP (which is still a lot even in Eberron).

 

[Yosharian]

Eberron, being a campaign setting that actually gives a damn about making day to day life make some semblance of sense (unlike Toril, which has a high enough level Cleric under every rock), makes it so that priests who can cast raise dead are rare and those who can generally don't want to cast it: For the Sovereign Host, death is the natural cycle, while for the Silver Flame you're either a heathen or restoring your life means your soul is no longer powering the sacred flame. To raise the dead you need to either find a priest of a (generally) evil cult, who is still rare (there's only about 1/20 chance a large city has any priest that level, though a metropolis will always have at least 3) or hope you can find someone with the Greater Mark of Healing and shell out 10,000 GP (which is still a lot even in Eberron).

It's true that sometimes in d&d high level clerics are bandied about like they are commonplace. But they really shouldn't be in any reasonably well thought out setting. Raise Dead should be something that only gets cast on extremely important people, like kings and the like, and even then probably not.

 

[Fairfax]

Yes I'm fully aware of that, but my point is that spells often have limiting factors or costs that balance them out. And these are often role-playing factors, because, SHOCK! d&d is a role-playing game!

Yes, but this is Forgotten Realms, where powerful magic users are abundant and popular characters are revived/live for centuries very often. Larian bringing anyone back through Resurrection/True Resurrection/Wish wouldn't stand out as cheap in FR lore.

 

[Yosharian]

Yes I'm fully aware of that, but my point is that spells often have limiting factors or costs that balance them out. And these are often role-playing factors, because, SHOCK! d&d is a role-playing game!

Yes, but this is Forgotten Realms, where powerful magic users are abundant and popular characters are revived/live for centuries very often. Larian bringing anyone back through Resurrection/True Resurrection/Wish wouldn't stand out as cheap in FR lore.

How abundant are they in, say, Baldur's Gate 1? A 10th level+ cleric is not that common, and how many lower level adventurers have 5000gp spare?

 

[Ismaul]

Yes, but this is Forgotten Realms, where powerful magic users are abundant and popular characters are revived/live for centuries very often. Larian bringing anyone back through Resurrection/True Resurrection/Wish wouldn't stand out as cheap in FR lore.

True. Yet another reason why the FR setting sucks. Consequences are a second thought, just have the gold and be resurrected.

 

[Melcar]

Just like in real life. Money solves everything.

Sent from my Redmi 4A using Tapatalk

 

[Covenant]

Yes I'm fully aware of that, but my point is that spells often have limiting factors or costs that balance them out. And these are often role-playing factors, because, SHOCK! d&d is a role-playing game!

Yes, but this is Forgotten Realms, where powerful magic users are abundant and popular characters are revived/live for centuries very often. Larian bringing anyone back through Resurrection/True Resurrection/Wish wouldn't stand out as cheap in FR lore.

How abundant are they in, say, Baldur's Gate 1? A 10th level+ cleric is not that common, and how many lower level adventurers have 5000gp spare?

Assuming that it was 5000gp in second edition, it doesn't seem so inconceivable that they could get it. Gorion was a Harper, right? Between that and his colleagues at Candlekeep, I wouldn't raise too many eyebrows if the plot had instead been 'Do a quick whip-round amongst the inhabitants of Candlekeep for resurrection money then head to this nearby Harper stronghold to petition for them to come raise Gorion' rather than what it actually was.

Naturally, that wouldn't apply if the guy were just some random peasant who'd never seen more than 50gp in his life. So I agree with you as far as that goes - there were already some sensible limitations, but they could probably have stood to go a bit further.

For my part I think the whole Raise thing would work better by lowering the spell level to 2 or so, allowing it to affect multiple creatures per cast (but with a limit on negative HP that can be 'restored', dependent on caster level, and the limit is shared between all targets), changing the time limit 'day per level' to 'minute per level' and changing the fluff to 'Super magic CPR' instead of actually bringing the dead back to life. That way it gives parties a way to recover from a combat or trap that takes out a couple of their members, but doesn't give carte blanche to fuck up the narrative consequences whenever you like. Unlucky crit takes out your ranger? Finish the fight quickly and bring him back, not a big deal. Dawdle too long on your rescue mission, or let guards sound the alarm so the hostage gets slaughtered? You have to take the consequences of that, short of a much-rarer Resurrection or Wish ability.

That said it's been years since I played D&D so I'm probably forgetting several reasons why that change wouldn't work at all.

 

[Yosharian]

Yes, but this is Forgotten Realms, where powerful magic users are abundant and popular characters are revived/live for centuries very often. Larian bringing anyone back through Resurrection/True Resurrection/Wish wouldn't stand out as cheap in FR lore.

True. Yet another reason why the FR setting sucks. Consequences are a second thought, just have the gold and be resurrected.

And find a high level cleric. And don't take too long. And have the corpse intact. And the spirit must be willing to return. And the target can't have been killed by a death spell.

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

they have to continue the bhaalspawn saga. this is the chance to redeem the franchise for not letting me import my character into neverwinter nights.

 

[Yosharian]

Yes I'm fully aware of that, but my point is that spells often have limiting factors or costs that balance them out. And these are often role-playing factors, because, SHOCK! d&d is a role-playing game!

Yes, but this is Forgotten Realms, where powerful magic users are abundant and popular characters are revived/live for centuries very often. Larian bringing anyone back through Resurrection/True Resurrection/Wish wouldn't stand out as cheap in FR lore.

How abundant are they in, say, Baldur's Gate 1? A 10th level+ cleric is not that common, and how many lower level adventurers have 5000gp spare?

Assuming that it was 5000gp in second edition, it doesn't seem so inconceivable that they could get it. Gorion was a Harper, right? Between that and his colleagues at Candlekeep, I wouldn't raise too many eyebrows if the plot had instead been 'Do a quick whip-round amongst the inhabitants of Candlekeep for resurrection money then head to this nearby Harper stronghold to petition for them to come raise Gorion' rather than what it actually was.

Naturally, that wouldn't apply if the guy were just some random peasant who'd never seen more than 50gp in his life. So I agree with you as far as that goes - there were already some sensible limitations, but they could probably have stood to go a bit further.

For my part I think the whole Raise thing would work better by lowering the spell level to 2 or so, allowing it to affect multiple creatures per cast (but with a limit on negative HP that can be 'restored', dependent on caster level, and the limit is shared between all targets), changing the time limit 'day per level' to 'minute per level' and changing the fluff to 'Super magic CPR' instead of actually bringing the dead back to life. That way it gives parties a way to recover from a combat or trap that takes out a couple of their members, but doesn't give carte blanche to fuck up the narrative consequences whenever you like. Unlucky crit takes out your ranger? Finish the fight quickly and bring him back, not a big deal. Dawdle too long on your rescue mission, or let guards sound the alarm so the hostage gets slaughtered? You have to take the consequences of that, short of a much-rarer Resurrection or Wish ability.

First of all, Gorion is currently lying dead in the wilderness near Candlekeep, and you can't get inside Candlekeep alone. You might consider that waving his corpse about might get you through the door, but it's not a given. They might just say no.

Even if you do get through the door, again it's not a given that they can easily gather together 5000gp, let alone find a diamond worth that much.

But let's put that to one side since AD&D doesn't specifically mention that.

You still have to find a high level Cleric within about 10 days, or Gorion's toast anyway. There aren't any at Candlekeep, even if you can get back in.

This is assuming Gorion's body is intact: Sarevok could easily have split him in two, and IIRC he's shown getting gibbed by the engine. And then you need a fucking Resurrection spell, good luck finding a Cleric that high level.

Then yet again this is assuming Gorion even wants to come back! The dude is old, and its a funny thing, once you get to the afterlife, you start to care less and less about the land of the living...

I'm not saying it's technically impossible, I'm saying there are a ton of reasons why it could reasonably be extremely difficult, so difficult as to be reasonable to just say 'yeah Gorion is dead, you're on your own now'.

"LUL JUST CAST RAISE DEAD!!1" is really not as smart as people think it is in this situation.

As for the Harpers, you have no way of contacting them, and the nearest Harper is probably Jaheira who definitely doesn't have Raise Dead or any high level communication spells.

 

[santino27]

Yes, but this is Forgotten Realms, where powerful magic users are abundant and popular characters are revived/live for centuries very often. Larian bringing anyone back through Resurrection/True Resurrection/Wish wouldn't stand out as cheap in FR lore.

True. Yet another reason why the FR setting sucks. Consequences are a second thought, just have the gold and be resurrected.

And find a high level cleric. And don't take too long. And have the corpse intact. And the spirit must be willing to return. And the target can't have been killed by a death spell.

High level cleric just east of Beregost or in the building right next to the inn where you find Khalid and Jaheira. Gorion was not killed by a death spell. Presumably, he'd be more than interested in returning, given what's at stake.

Basically, raise dead is just a plot breaker which is why BG ignored it from a narrative sense.

 

[Yosharian]

Yes, but this is Forgotten Realms, where powerful magic users are abundant and popular characters are revived/live for centuries very often. Larian bringing anyone back through Resurrection/True Resurrection/Wish wouldn't stand out as cheap in FR lore.

True. Yet another reason why the FR setting sucks. Consequences are a second thought, just have the gold and be resurrected.

And find a high level cleric. And don't take too long. And have the corpse intact. And the spirit must be willing to return. And the target can't have been killed by a death spell.

High level cleric just east of Beregost or in the building right next to the inn where you find Khalid and Jaheira. Gorion was not killed by a death spell. Presumably, he'd be more than interested in returning, given what's at stake.

Basically, raise dead is just a plot breaker which is why BG ignored it from a narrative sense.

None of this information is provided to you at the start of the game. So ok, pick up Gorion's dismembered corpse, and trudge around for many days in search of a cleric. Hope you have someone strong enough to carry a corpse while fighting off wolves and bandits.

You have 10 days. Good luck.

Alternatively, bury the old coot and concentrate on fucking surviving...

 

[Fairfax]

Yosharian You're talking about 3E's Raise Dead as if it was the only/best spell to bring someone back. Even if one insists this idea should follow 3E's spells, 3E Resurrection only needs a portion of the body and the target can be dead for 10 years/caster level. True Resurrection doesn't need a body at all. Wish can duplicate Resurrection/True Resurrection or follow special terms that are only limited by the DM/writer. Sure, these are high level and/or expensive spells, but as I said, that's not an issue in FR.

 

[Yosharian]

Yosharian You're talking about 3E's Raise Dead as if it was the only/best spell to bring someone back. Even if one insists this idea should follow 3E's spells, 3E Resurrection only needs a portion of the body and the target can be dead for 10 years/caster level. True Resurrection doesn't need a body at all. Wish can duplicate Resurrection/True Resurrection or follow special terms that are only limited by the DM/writer. Sure, these are high level and/or expensive spells, but as I said, that's not an issue in FR.

But they are an issue in Baldurs Gate 1.

 

[Mud']

Yes, they're trolling: https://larian.com/video/Sunday_Funday.mp4

Again, the file has changed but no apparent change in video itself.

• I'm not shellfish
• Issa_squid1
  
• You're shellfish

Most likely they didn't want to reveal new teaser during weekend, because... it's weekend. Who's wandering on the internet in weekend, right?

At least, with that "Issa_squid1", they shared us Michael's favorite meme account:
https://www.instagram.com/squid_devold/

Issa Squid

Norges meme elite
squid-devold.tumblr.com

Guess that any sort of announcement is going to be made at E3?

 

[Cael]

As for the Harpers, you have no way of contacting them, and the nearest Harper is probably Jaheira who definitely doesn't have Raise Dead or any high level communication spells.

She has something better: Reincarnation. Good old Gorion coming back in a young adult body of a... Xvart.

 

[Fairfax]

Yosharian You're talking about 3E's Raise Dead as if it was the only/best spell to bring someone back. Even if one insists this idea should follow 3E's spells, 3E Resurrection only needs a portion of the body and the target can be dead for 10 years/caster level. True Resurrection doesn't need a body at all. Wish can duplicate Resurrection/True Resurrection or follow special terms that are only limited by the DM/writer. Sure, these are high level and/or expensive spells, but as I said, that's not an issue in FR.

But they are an issue in Baldurs Gate 1.

Raise Dead costs nothing in 2E, the target just has to pass a resurrection check. 2E Resurrection and Wish also cost nothing, they just age the caster (which can be reversed with Restore Youth).

CHARNAME could've easily brought Gorion back to life in BG2, it just wasn't the story they wanted to tell. IIRC there was an excuse with Jaheira saying you can't use Resurrection when the body is too destroyed, but that's only supposed to make the resurrection harder, not impossible (the spell's description mentions 'bones of a creature', after all). Not to mention this wouldn't apply to Wish.

 

[PapaPetro]

Maybe Gorion failed his system shock roll on resurrection?

 

[Yosharian]

Yosharian You're talking about 3E's Raise Dead as if it was the only/best spell to bring someone back. Even if one insists this idea should follow 3E's spells, 3E Resurrection only needs a portion of the body and the target can be dead for 10 years/caster level. True Resurrection doesn't need a body at all. Wish can duplicate Resurrection/True Resurrection or follow special terms that are only limited by the DM/writer. Sure, these are high level and/or expensive spells, but as I said, that's not an issue in FR.

But they are an issue in Baldurs Gate 1.

Raise Dead costs nothing in 2E, the target just has to pass a resurrection check. 2E Resurrection and Wish also cost nothing, they just age the caster (which can be reversed with Restore Youth).

CHARNAME could've easily brought Gorion back to life in BG2, it just wasn't the story they wanted to tell. IIRC there was an excuse with Jaheira saying you can't use Resurrection when the body is too destroyed, but that's only supposed to make the resurrection harder, not impossible (the spell's description mentions 'bones of a creature', after all). Not to mention this wouldn't apply to Wish.

I'm not referring to the cost, I'm referring to the requirement of having a high level Cleric who can cast Resurrection.

As for BG2, yes absolutely that could have happened, but again I refer to you to the time that has passed since the old coot has passed, he's just not going to care that much about returning to his withered old body, to a life he's pretty much left behind, after he's spent months in the afterlife.