Baldur's Gate #BaldurGate: Siege of Dragonspear

[Greyfox12311]

I honestly couldn't give SoD anything higher than a 4/10 and that is just me focusing on the good things in the game.

You're being generous. 3/10 is more than fair and I have been a fan for over 25 years.

 

[Jason Liang]

I think SCS works fine without Dragonspear, since the newest version was released years before Dragonspear. If not you should google some answers, I think you need a few workarounds.

Well, I tried installing SCS with the BG EE versions some weeks ago, but encounterd a problem that apparantly can only be solved by installing a utility called ModMerge that requires Dragonspear.

My SCS installation now stops at

Reading in data: spellcodes
Copying and patching 1 file ...
[./override/spell.ids] loaded, 25681 bytes
ERROR: cannot convert level or %level% to an integer
ERROR: [spell.ids] -> [override] Patching Failed (COPY) (Not_found)
Stopping installation because of error.

ModMerge just unzips the SoD content and puts it in the Override folder, which is how every other Infinity Engine mod is installed. Something like that. It shouldn't affect SCS at all.

If you're still trying to use Spell Enhancement, that's more likely the source of incompatability with SCS.

I had SCS installed on BG:EE without SoD fine last year, so if it *is* an error with the newest version of SCS then installing an older version will work.

UPDATE: Link shows BG:EE with SCS without SoD.

 

[Lacrymas]

You HAVE to ModMerge SoD to be able to install any mods at all, including SCS. At least that's what I read and had to do to install it with SoD.

 

[Jason Liang]

You HAVE to ModMerge SoD to be able to install any mods at all, including SCS. At least that's what I read and had to do to install it with SoD.

Modmerge is only used to make SoD compatible with BG: EE Infinity Engine mods. If you want to mod BG: EE without SoD, you shouldn't need Modmerge at all.

 

[fantadomat]

I surprised that people at the codex play that shit.

 

[Lilura]

7.5/10 is a bit generous :p

I have vested interests to take into account. Shit-tier writing is T:ToN, btw.

 

[Lacrymas]

Yes, Numanuma's writing is worse, but I don't think being compared to things which plunge new depths (in a bad way) is a compliment or somehow elevates SoD :p

 

[octavius]

You HAVE to ModMerge SoD to be able to install any mods at all, including SCS. At least that's what I read and had to do to install it with SoD.

Modmerge is only used to make SoD compatible with BG: EE Infinity Engine mods. If you want to mod BG: EE without SoD, you shouldn't need Modmerge at all.

I'm getting some conflicting information, but once I'm sick and tired of playing Alpha Centauri, I will give the BWS option a try. I've always avoided BWS like the plague since I associate it with the big early mods that were rampant with cheese and munchinism.

 

[Lacrymas]

I couldn't get BWS to install at all, so can't comment on that.

 

[Delterius]

SoD's writing may be mediocre to bad but that's what makes it a seamless addition to the saga.

 

[Infinitron]

7.5/10 is a bit generous :p

It is? With all the trolling in this thread I was expecting her to give it a 10/10.

 

[Melcar]

11/10

 

[Sacibengala]

The time will come when this thing will be the messiah aborted by the mass of heretics who chose to embrace the ultimate decline that was everything else that is being accepted today as crpg.

 

[Lacrymas]

It is a much more catechistic RPG than a lot coming out today, it's true. It's not because Beamdog are good, but because it's the IE engine and it takes quite a lot of incompetence to screw it up. Sure, the writing is bad, but it has other virtues that elevate it above most. Is it a great game or a modern classic? No. Is it worth playing? Yes. Is it worth replaying? Eeehhh, I don't see myself replaying it any time soon. Will people remember it in the future and do BG marathons with it? Probably not, it will remain a curiosity and only *some* people will have interest in it.

 

[Riddler]

I can't say that Corwin is badly written per se. Sure, she's in contrast with the typical 'D&D PnP archetype' sort of thing that BG does. She's too normal in a universe where you can run into Minsc and Edwin in the same little town. But if anything that shows A) the cracks in the original memes characters from the saga and B) how poorly suited they are for a dialogue heavy game. Edwin, Minsc, Jaheira and Safana grow to become irritating if they don't ever grow beyond their own quirks. Which is why Shadows of Amn elaborated further on Minsc and Jaheira. Which Beamdog couldn't do.

So by herself I can't say that Corwin is badly written. Just look at some of the other ones. The gnome is a blatant attempt to one up Minsc. Dorn's first appearance in BG are two rogues acting as foils to detail his oh so edgy background. Baeloth and M'khinn were fun to play with, sure but Corwin is fine. She's just a soldier who wants to protect Baldur's Gate.

Considering the amount of dialogue that the companions have in SoD, shouldn't they be compared to SoA and not BG1?

Furthermore, aren't characters badly written independently from each other? I mean, the shit tier writing of Glint only serves to make Corwins writing worse since they have to interact. The relative differences doesn't change the absolute quality, no?

 

[Delterius]

Considering the amount of dialogue that the companions have in SoD, shouldn't they be compared to SoA and not BG1?

Well, evidently both. Siege is smack in the middle of the saga. Its story has to work as a tie-in between the games. You have to look forward and backwards if you want to understand why some things work and others don't.

In terms of form and presentation, SoD stands as the odd duck. It has cutscenes that remind me of IWD2 and its dialogue heavy like the more recent BioWare fare. Characters that worked in Baldur's Gate may suddenly not work well at all in Siege. Archetypes, quirks and eccentricities suddenly go from hit and miss to something much more likely to rub everyone off. One thing is enjoying the concept of the naive/obtuse Berserker who lost more than a couple of WIS points over the years. In Baldur's Gate your mind will fill in the blanks. In something like Siege that same character gets so much spotlight that he desperately needs to become more well rounded.

Shadows of Amn knew that. Despite having less dialogue relative to Dragonspear, the sequel still put Minsc and Jaheira through their own little character arcs. Their loss becomes an opportunity for their characters to evolve. Minsc would deal with it by electing Aerie as his new witch to protect. Jaheira goes on a revenge quest of sorts. As such BG2 actually becomes a stranglehold: neither of these companions can be much more than they'll be in SoA and yet the amount of dialogue still calls for it.

I think the better question is wether Siege of Dragonspear works as a tie-in story, in particular for characters like Minsc and Jaheira. Well, kind of I suppose. Both of them get more screentime with their significant others but its mostly the same as always. Dynaheir has the cleverest talkeths and always needs to steer Minsc in the right direction. Jaheira nags on Khalid and they try to be cute when talking about their wedding, I think.

Furthermore, aren't characters badly written independently from each other? I mean, the shit tier writing of Glint only serves to make Corwins writing worse since they have to interact. The relative differences doesn't change the absolute quality, no?

Well, sure. I never said that Dragonspear's overall writing was more than mediocre to bad. I still think there's some use in drawing a distinction between its parts. The good, the bad and the ugly. There are characters which are just terrible, unsurprisingly its the gnome. And there are characters which are out of place or badly used.

Corrin just feels like an NPC who joined the crew. She's too normal, even boring at times. But she does make sense. You're a hero of Baldur's Gate and she's your lieutenant. Her reasons for escorting you, should you allow it, are mostly sound. She's a soldier and she wants to protect her city and family. Like everybody else she does not entirely trust the powerful murderchild who is suddenly at the host of the army.

The shoehorned romance path is probably her worst part. At her core she's not that different from an entire host of BG characters who went to the Sword Coast just to investigate an iron shortage. It wouldn't be useful to say that what she lacks, if anything, is a quirk to make her stand out more. Think about it this way. The fact that you brought Glint along and at some point he spoke to Corrin wouldn't be improved if she were also written as a Glint.

 

[Dorateen]

Good grief. Thank Dumathoin, Siege of Dragonspear included full party creation right out of the box. It plays better treated as an expansion to Icewind Dale.

 

[Delterius]

Good grief. Thank Dumathoin, Siege of Dragonspear included full party creation right out of the box. It plays better treated as an expansion to Icewind Dale.

I'm disappointed at you. Its almost like you're implying you wouldn't play Baldur's Gate itself with full party creation.

 

[Lacrymas]

There's no point to playing BG1 with a fully created party because you can never get them as good as some of the companions, mainly the evil ones (and Coran). Does Siege's story work as a bridge? Not really, especially if you don't play with the "canon" party (Dynaheir, Minsc, Khalid, Jaheira and Imoen). They force them on you at the last minute and I cringed at the ass-pull. The story's like trying to

Spoiler

tell Kaelyn the Dove's before she failed the crusade

and it doesn't gel well with either BG1 or 2. Sure, it explains why Irenicus chose you specifically instead of anyone else, but was that a burning question? Caelar's crusade doesn't have anything to do with either BGs. You might argue that that's a side thing, the main main plot is the Hooded Man, but eh.

 

[Delterius]

It works as well as it could have considering BG2 never cared to bridge things with BG1. Which was a big complaint back in the day. Now, the reason why you end up in the dungeon with the 'canon' party is entirely up to what these characters do on their own, wether you bring them along or not. You don't have to play the 'canon' party, Imoen and the elf couple can leave the party anywhere in BG1 or Dragonspear and it will still make sense. Only way to break the link now is by killing one of them along the way.

 

[Lacrymas]

What I don't like is the sudden change from BG1. You are an adventuring party, sweeping you up in two clashing armies isn't a logical continuation of that. I would've made the main quest trying to find Bhaal's old temple to get some answers and see what you can do about the Bhaalspawn thing. Start from the Undercity's temple, just after killing Sarevok, finding hints about others. That will give you incentive for more adventure while slowly introducing you to Irenicus who hounds your movements AND tie it narratively with both games. As it stands now, the main plot is a vestigial element, bridging the two games (without lube) in literally the last 15 seconds.

 

[ArchAngel]

There's no point to playing BG1 with a fully created party because you can never get them as good as some of the companions, mainly the evil ones (and Coran). Does Siege's story work as a bridge? Not really, especially if you don't play with the "canon" party (Dynaheir, Minsc, Khalid, Jaheira and Imoen). They force them on you at the last minute and I cringed at the ass-pull. The story's like trying to

Spoiler

tell Kaelyn the Dove's before she failed the crusade

and it doesn't gel well with either BG1 or 2. Sure, it explains why Irenicus chose you specifically instead of anyone else, but was that a burning question? Caelar's crusade doesn't have anything to do with either BGs. You might argue that that's a side thing, the main main plot is the Hooded Man, but eh.

Of course there is a point. Except for Edwin and Baeloth everyone else has a tiny bonus ability and bad stats. Your fully created party can have perfect stats and all the OP class kits.

 

[Lacrymas]

Coran has illegal proficiency in Longbows, Viconia has 50% magic resistance, Kagain has illegal CON, Edwin is the best mage in the game bar none, so no, created parties can't have what these guys have. If you try to recreate them you won't be able to. Class kits are a BG2 thing and are "illegal" in BG1.

 

[Delterius]

You are an adventuring party, sweeping you up in two clashing armies isn't a logical continuation of that.

I think its pretty logical considering the actual story. You ended BG1 as the Hero of Baldur's Gate, saving her from the machinations of a demigod of Murder. Now the city is under threat from invasion. So you act as her Champion-Adventurer. Once you fight at the helm of the army, which is pretty standard for Sword and Sorcery stories. Another time you do get to order people around during battle. But for the most part you're adventuring and dungeon delving around the war effort.

I would've made the main quest trying to find Bhaal's old temple to get some answers and see what you can do about the Bhaalspawn thing.

The problem is that understanding your divinity is BG2's schtick. You can't elaborate too much on this deparment, otherwise all those new dreams of death and murder become redundant. And if you elaborate too little the game is nothing more than those Irenicus scenes: foreshadowing of games we already played.

A prequel needs its own identity, otherwise its just fanservice.

Start from the Undercity's temple, just after killing Sarevok, finding hints about others.

I wouldn't like that to be honest. The starting in Undercity part. One of the good things about Dragonspear is that there's no 'canon party' anymore. You can end BG1 with whoever you want. You can dump Imoen, the two couples at any time and it still makes sense how you cross paths again and end up in Irenicus' dungeon.

As it stands now, the main plot is a vestigial element, bridging the two games (without lube) in literally the last 15 seconds.

Its more like the first and last 5 minutes. You set out to investigate Caelar's army because, among other things, she's rumoured to be Bhaalspawn. Along the way you cross paths with Boareskyr Bridge - where you explode with Murderness -, Irenicus and a temple of Bhaal. Twenty hours or so of random adventuring later and you've got the climax of the game. All the elements from SoA's intro custcene are sprinkled across an adventure story about Castle Dragonspear.

I don't disagree with your chosen premise but I can see why some decisions were made in the expansion and I disagree that its on the whole bad. Its mostly badly handled, however.

 

[ArchAngel]

Coran has illegal proficiency in Longbows, Viconia has 50% magic resistance, Kagain has illegal CON, Edwin is the best mage in the game bar none, so no, created parties can't have what these guys have. If you try to recreate them you won't be able to. Class kits are a BG2 thing and are "illegal" in BG1.

Does not make Coran better. Your NPC can be Archer kit and be superior. Viconia has crap almost all stats, 50% MR does not make up for it. Kagain.. well you can get a Con Book and give it to your party dwarf for some effect, same dwarf that can be a berserker and have max Str and Dex as well.
Edwin does have more spells but you can make a Sorcerer give him all good stats and you know best spells to pick. Baeloth is only odd one out, he has decent stats, 50% MR and more spells known than any Sorcerer you can make.

And I don't care for your illegal kits shit, this is a Beamdog topic, of course we are discussing Bg1EE here.