Vapourware WOTC restricting content creation in new OGL - Paizo launches competing OGL - lol cancelled

[JamesDixon]

D&D invented a ton of commonly used fantasy tropes

No it didn't.

Some comments are so retarded that you just have to let it lie as a monument to a person's stupidity.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

D&D invented a ton of commonly used fantasy tropes

There are other reasons why it's generic and boring.

 

[SunKing]

$30 USD a month? That's fucking bananas. Even if you're super into D&D that's crazy. I suppose it might work if a group only requires one sub and split it, but I don't know how the hell you're getting people into the hobby with that sort of thing. At best, you're just milking the shit out of your die hard fans who have the cash to burn.

I love the smell of corporate greed in the morning.

$30 fuck that I live in a 3rd world shithole ain't paying that.

 

[RPK]

The "Oh, Shit, we're getting crucified" approach to response has been amended, but the content really hasn't.

https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1428-a-working-conversation-about-the-open-game-license

 

[RaggleFraggle]

D&D invented a ton of commonly used fantasy tropes

No it didn't.

D&D invented a ton of commonly used fantasy tropes

No it didn't.

Some comments are so retarded that you just have to let it lie as a monument to a person's stupidity.

D&D invented a ton of commonly used fantasy tropes

There are other reasons why it's generic and boring.

Name one source predating D&D that had chromatic dragons with different colors associated with different breath weapons and depicted Tiamat as a five-headed dragon and Bahamut as a good platinum dragon. I'll wait.

Scaly kobolds. Furry kobolds. Gnolls as hyena people. Four tribes of genies with different elemental associations named Djinn, Efreet, Marid, and Dao. Liches as undead wizard kings with phylacteries containing their souls. Bugbears as even bigger goblins. Mind flayers. Drow. Beholders.

There's a ton of little things that were cobbled together by D&D writers in the 70s and 80s with very little basis if at all in pre-existing literature and folklore. It was common for them to make things up, with maybe some odds and ends appropriated from literature or folklore, and these have since filtered into many fantasy novels and video games. Particularly Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, and their many imitators.

D&D is not completely unoriginal and derivative. There are some original ideas. D&Disms, they're called.

I don't think Hasbro actually has grounds to win, but at this point I wouldn't put it past them to try anyway.

 

[Tyranicon]

Paizo launches competing OGL

My dumbfuck opinion is that any serious creative person should seek to create their own system from the ground up, rather than latch unto someone else's.

True innovation comes from invention, not just iteration.

 

[Acrux]

Digging yourself deeper

You have a strange definition of "inventing fantasy tropes". You mean, they took some existing fantasy tropes and put their own spin on them, which is very different from "inventing". And several things on your list certainly already existed. "liches as undead wizard kings with phylactries containing their souls" is an ancient legend. Look at Russian fairy tales or any of the fairy tale books that Andrew Lang compiled over 100 years ago and you'll find those exactly. Kobolds, bugbears, drow, dragons already existed and these iterations are just their own spin. They are not "original" ideas.

 

[JamesDixon]

Name one source predating D&D that had chromatic dragons with different colors associated with different breath weapons and depicted Tiamat as a five-headed dragon and Bahamut as a good platinum dragon. I'll wait.

Sumerian mythology has Tiamat and she spawned all different colors of dragons.

kobolds

They're from German folklore.

Gnolls

Created from Gnoles by Lord Duscany.

Djinn, Efreet, Marid, and Dao

All are from Islamic folklore.

Liches

Originate in the earliest fantasy literatures like Clark Ashton Smith and Robert E. Howard.

Bugbears

Comes from the British Isles namely Ireland, Wales, Scotland, and England.

Mind flayers

From a cover painting of the book of the Titus Crow The Burrowers Beneath by Brian Lumley. They are rooted in the Cthulhu mythos.

Drow

From Scottish and Norse folklore as underground dwelling dark elves. In Scotland it's spelled Trow.

Beholders

Completely original and created by Gary Gygax. However, it's inspired by many creatures in folklore like the Medussa.

Shall we continue?

EDIT: Bahamut is from Islamic folklore.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

 

[JamesDixon]

The fans are having an effect on Hasbro's bottom line.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Digging yourself deeper

You have a strange definition of "inventing fantasy tropes". You mean, they took some existing fantasy tropes and put their own spin on them, which is very different from "inventing". And several things on your list certainly already existed. "liches as undead wizard kings with phylactries containing their souls" is an ancient legend. Look at Russian fairy tales or any of the fairy tale books that Andrew Lang compiled over 100 years ago and you'll find those exactly. Kobolds, bugbears, drow, dragons already existed and these iterations are just their own spin. They are not "original" ideas.

Look, if my use of the word "invent" confused you, then ok I'm sorry. But I'm not going to argue semantics here. D&D did in fact contribute a great deal to fantasy conventions. D&Disms exist, a lot of fantasy authors copied them exactly, and I wouldn't put it past current day Hasbro to pull a GW.

---

Sumerian mythology has Tiamat and she spawned all different colors of dragons.

In Sumerian myth she did not have five heads of five different colors and associated breath weapons, nor did she spawn chromatic dragons matching those heads, nor is she an enemy of good platinum Bahamut. That's a D&Dism.

They're from German folklore.

The name, yes. D&D turned them into furry, scaled, horned diminutive rat people, then into purely scaly diminutive people. Multiple fantasy anime use furry kobolds because the authors played D&D. It's a D&Dism. This is what they look like in folklore: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kobold_and_flowers.jpeg

Created from Gnoles by Lord Duscany.

The name, but nothing else. The hyena people thing is pure D&Dism. This is what gnoles in St. Clair's sequel to the original story looked like: https://www.deviantart.com/spearhafoc/art/Gnoles-658863870

All are from Islamic folklore.

In folklore jinn, ifrit, and marid are different names for genies, but don't have any elemental associations beyond genies being made of "smokeless fire." Dao isn't Arabic at all, but a Chinese word for "way." That's a D&Dism.

Originate in the earliest fantasy literatures like Clark Ashton Smith and Robert E. Howard.

As a general word for corpses, animated or otherwise. That's the original dictionary definition, which these authors were referring to. D&D defined the usage solely for undead wizard kings with soul jars. It's a D&Dism.

Comes from the British Isles namely Ireland, Wales, Scotland, and England.

The name, yeah. But they're not depicted as 6 foot tall furry goblins. That's a D&Dism.

From a cover painting of the book of the Titus Crow The Burrowers Beneath by Brian Lumley. They are rooted in the Cthulhu mythos.

The tentacle imagery, yes, but nothing else. The brain eating, society, time travel backstory, etc were invented by D&D. They're D&Disms.

I heard that they had some influence from the Thrint in Niven's Known Space, but it's limited to the bit about ruling an empire through telepathic mind control and nothing else.

From Scottish and Norse folklore as underground dwelling dark elves. In Scotland it's spelled Trow.

Again, name only. The black skin, white hair, matriarchy, spider worship, slavery, and BDSM are all D&Disms.

And before you argue that Norse dark elves had black skin, it's not clear enough to argue from the surviving sources and also the dark elves were dwarves.

Completely original and created by Gary Gygax. However, it's inspired by many creatures in folklore like the Medussa.

Yes, the gorgons, basilisk, and catoblepas were all known for their deadly gazes. They're still not giant flying eyeballs with a variety of different gaze attacks. I'm glad you can at least acknowledge that much.

Shall we continue?

Why? What is your point? That the authors named their creations after things from earlier stories? That they took influence from earlier stories? I never argued otherwise. We don't come up with ideas in a vacuum. But the actual D&Disms are hardly direct copies of their influences. D&D contributed a lot to fantasy conventions, whether you acknowledge it or not.

 

[JamesDixon]

D&D did in fact contribute a great deal to fantasy conventions.

You said invent which is much different than contribute. Shall I buy you a dictionary?

Nobody is saying that Gary Gygax and crew didn't contribute to the fantasy genre. We are saying that they didn't create very much of anything and used existing folklore. That's why everyone can have these monsters in their fantasy game regardless of rules system. You can't copyright public domain.

You can have a seat since you've been schooled.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

D&D did in fact contribute a great deal to fantasy conventions.

You said invent which is much different than contribute. Shall I buy you a dictionary?

Nobody is saying that Gary Gygax and crew didn't contribute to the fantasy genre. We are saying that they didn't create very much of anything and used existing folklore. That's why everyone can have these monsters in their fantasy game regardless of rules system. You can't copyright public domain.

You can have a seat since you've been schooled.

You're being really anal-retentive about this. Altho at this point I suppose it's pot kettle black.

I give TSR more credit than you do. Regardless of whether you personally acknowledge it, a lot of their concepts are fairly original and potentially defendable in court if push to came to shove. The more detailed, the more ammunition. Unless you're seriously trying to argue that klingons and vulcans are public domain.

Whether Hasbro's lawsuits have merit or not, I wouldn't put it past them now to pull a GW anyway. It might be frivolous, but most people won't be able to pay the fees anyhow so Hasbro wins by default.

 

[mondblut]

Paizo launches competing OGL

My dumbfuck opinion is that any serious creative person should seek to create their own system from the ground up, rather than latch unto someone else's.

True innovation comes from invention, not just iteration.

I suspect people are more interested in having a ready market for their product rather than muh true innovashun.

 

[JamesDixon]

I give TSR more credit than you do.

Can you be any more retarded? I hold TSR and what Gary and company did in very high regard. So much so that OD&D and AD&D are True D&D™ while WotC D&D is DANDINO™. D&D In Name Only. I started playing D&D back when it was AD&D 1E, in 1984, and stayed with AD&D 2E.

a lot of their concepts are fairly original and potentially defendable in court if push to came to shove.

Incorrect, the monsters themselves are public domain along with their stats due to game mechanics not being able to be copyrighted. Their background details may or may not be copyrighted as it depends on if the monster is based on folklore or not. If it is then you rewrite them to fit with what you want. The names can't be copyrighted and Wizards doesn't have a trademark on them. All in all Wizards would lose any court case over game mechanics and stats. You should really read the article series I linked to written by a lawyer that was issued a cease and desist in 2019 for his One Stop Stat Blocks by Wizards. He cleaned their clocks.

It might be frivolous, but most people won't be able to pay the fees anyhow so Hasbro wins by default.

The amount of money Hasbro is hemorrhaging right now they can't afford lawsuits. Even if they could their lawyers could face sanctions from the court for breaking the law. There is the matter of crowd funding that has been used to pay for legal fees in the past. The sheer amount of hatred that Hasbro has directed at it over the OGL will easily generate enough money to hire a copyright lawyer to defend you.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Incorrect, the monsters themselves are public domain along with their stats due to game mechanics not being able to be copyrighted. Their background details may or may not be copyrighted as it depends on if the monster is based on folklore or not. If it is then you rewrite them to fit with what you want. The names can't be copyrighted and Wizards doesn't have a trademark on them. All in all Wizards would lose any court case over game mechanics and stats. You should really read the article series I linked to written by a lawyer that was issued a cease and desist in 2019 for his One Stop Stat Blocks by Wizards. He cleaned their clocks.

I've been talking about the fluff this whole time. If I wrote a novel about evil drow elves with black skin and white hair, who live underground, worship spiders and demons, practice slavery, organize in a matriarchy, and dress in BDSM fetish wear, then I'm definitely gonna be worried if that opens me to litigation by Hasbro, just as if I wrote about vulcans or klingons. That's the problem that companies like Paizo, Mongoose and Green Ronin have right now, since they wrote and sell books about exactly that.

 

[JamesDixon]

I've been talking about the fluff this whole time.

Finally you clarify what you meant. It only took you three posts. I wouldn't worry about fluff. You can't copyright ideas.

If I wrote a novel about evil drow elves with black skin and white hair, who live underground, worship spiders and demons, practice slavery, organize in a matriarchy, and dress in BDSM fetish wear,

As long as you don't use the name of their gods etc.. you're fine. You can write what you want as long as you avoid their product identity. If you want your dark elves to be like that then that's based off of an idea. All that matter is the expression of it and that is what's copyrightable.

just as if I wrote about vulcans or klingons.

That's an invalid comparison logical fallacy since Vulcans and Klingons appear in other media that are protected by copyrights. Drow and other fantasy monsters are not protected by copyright due to the fact that they are expressed as game mechanics. The only way to protect names is by trademarking them with a distinct piece of art. That costs lots of money that Hasbro can't afford right now.

 

[Larianshill]

DnDbros, I don't feel so good...

 

[JamesDixon]

DnDbros, I don't feel so good...

Just get off the consoomer train bud and say fuck you to Wizards.

 

[mondblut]

Based. Consoomer should shut the fuck up and consoome, nobody cares about xir "grand" ideas.

 

[Sarathiour]

DnDbros, I don't feel so good...

edit : edited the size thx to Zed Duke of Banville help.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

I was going to write a long post in the copyright debate agreeing with RaggleFraggle but in the end I think that JamesDixon is right and people have no reason to fear the lawsuit.

On one hand WoTC actually invented some fantasy races and should be able to sue if anyone tries to simply copy without permission. For example Drows as a femdom BDSM evil elves living underground is their creation. It's not just a stat-block in the game since they've published The Dark Elf trilogy which described their society in detail, also you can't argue that a piece of fiction (such as fluff) isn't yours just because you put game rules next to it.

On the other hand I couldn't find a single lawsuit where somebody got sued for stealing a fantasy creature and lost. Hobbits are clearly distinct from any other creature found in folklore and Tolkien estate can't do shit to stop people from putting them into their games. Gundam uses a lightsaber. Cameron got sued by a guy who came up with idea for a story about humans putting their minds into bodies of alien creatures and sending them to other planets to infiltrate the locals and won.

 

[JamesDixon]

I was going to write a long post in the copyright debate agreeing with @RaggleFraggle but in the end I think that @JamesDixon is right and people have no reason to fear the lawsuit.

Thanks I appreciate you agreeing with me.

On one hand WoTC actually invented some fantasy races and should be able to sue if anyone tries to simply copy without permission. For example Drows as a femdom BDSM evil elves living underground is their creation.

You can't copyright ideas of which you just described an idea. It's the actual execution which creates the artistic expression that is copyrighted. There is nothing to stop you from creating Drow elves that have a matriarchal society that live underground. You cited The Dark Elf trilogy which is the specific artistic expression of that idea. That trilogy introduces a whole slew of things like places, people, gods, and names. That fleshes out and defines the exact expression. As long you don't use what Wizards/TSR did to flesh out your version of the Drow you're fine.

Here's my version of the Drow for a core rulebook I'm writing.

Dark elves, also known as drow, are a subrace of elves that have withdrawn from the rest of elvish society and live underground. They are considered by all other elves to be corrupt and evil, and are no longer considered a part of the elven community. They have been shunned and outcast by their kin due to their actions, beliefs, and practices which are considered taboo and unacceptable by other elves. The reasons for this schism vary and the AM can specify what exactly caused the separation for their own setting.

Some possible reasons for the separation could include: a desire for power and control, a willingness to use forbidden magic or dark rituals, or a willingness to ally with evil creatures or forces. Dark elves are known for their ambition, cunning, and their fierce determination to succeed at any cost. They are also known for their proficiency in magic, particularly in the art of illusion and manipulation. They are also known for their stealth, agility and for their proficiency in the use of poisoned weapons.

Dark elves are feared and shunned by other races, and their reputation as corrupted, evil beings has made it difficult for them to form alliances or friendships with other races. They are often viewed as ruthless and cruel, and as a result, they are often on the fringes of society, living in small, isolated communities deep underground. However, some dark elves may choose to leave their underground homes and attempt to integrate into other societies, but they have to hide their true nature in order to avoid persecution and discrimination.

As you can see that I left my version of the dark elves and their separation from the rest of the elves up to the AM (adventure master) and I gave examples of that separation. All of the core of the race comes from folklore of the Scottish and Norse. Wizards can't copyright it and neither can I.

 

[Delterius]

you know things are going well when you have to retract everything twice a week

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

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