World of Warcraft: Dragon Desperation

[Sykar]

It is how we referred to them on the Blizzard forums and in game.

 

[J1M]

Garrosh becoming warchief makes sense. Orcs respect strength and he had the highest strength. A famous name and step-father helped too.

 

[Popiel]

I miss Garrosh... I mean, it's not like this game was ever any good, it's just that the decline gets steeper and steeper...

 

[Sykar]

Garrosh was already steep decline.

 

[Popiel]

Was he? Honestly speaking all of preMoP era seems to me to be of somewhat same quality when it comes to writing, that is, miniscule quality. Garrosh was at least charismatic, on point (may I remind you he was right about Sylvanlolas) and about something, no attempts at 7D chess games and other atrocious happenings.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Personally, I always found a "grey" approach to be more interesting anyway,

It's easy to say that in the post-Game of Thrones media landscape, but back when the WarCraft RTS games were being developed this approach was fairly niche in fantasy. The fantasy genre goes through trends, and while characters like Conan and Elric were antiheroes, after LotR got popular it was all the rage to have black-and-white morality. Even back in WC1 the orcs weren't cartoonishly evil and obviously had more depth to them if only because that's more interesting to read about in manuals, but they were pretty much the bad guys and the writing in general took a pretty sanitized approach to morality. They could've taken a more nuanced approach by depicting the humans, elves, and dwarves as light supremacists who oppressed the innocent trolls and goblins, so the orcs were able to convince the trolls and goblins to join the horde in exchange for freedom from oppression, but they didn't.

 

[Sykar]

What does that have to do with my personal preference? As I said, I played Forsaken and they were pretty unambiguously the bad guys. It is the rest of the horde that the fan fic writers fucked up by being vastly inconsistent and basically wrote them how they felt they wanted the overarching narrative to develop, instead of the more logically and organically way around.
Though of course they fucked up the Forsaken too because they are such chicken shits, though more on the mechanical side of things, until they made Sylvannas warchief which just turned into a gigantic Sylvannas wankfast for her writer. Probably was furiously masturbating whenever he wrote her story, doubly so on the attack of the Night Elf capital.

Was he? Honestly speaking all of preMoP era seems to me to be of somewhat same quality when it comes to writing, that is, miniscule quality. Garrosh was at least charismatic, on point (may I remind you he was right about Sylvanlolas) and about something, no attempts at 7D chess games and other atrocious happenings.

He was a hypocrite. He had no problems commiting any terrible deed so long as it will grant him victory but Sylvannas using the only method available to the Forsaken to replenish their ranks he thought was..."evil"? What a joke. Charismatic? I could not stand Garrosh from the first moment I saw him. Just another brash and arrogant retard who never listened to more experienced veterans. I'd take Thrall, Bloodhoof, Vol'jin or even Sylvannas, pre-warchief fuckwittery, over him any day.
Hell, I would take van Cleef over him any day.

 

[J1M]

Undead can't procreate and many view their own existence as a curse. Their population entering a dignified decline is a lot more interesting than "my undead body, my choice to have a necromancy baby".

Garrosh rightfully viewed such plans as a crime against nature.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Most of the worst parts of the storyline are mandated by the retarded faction mechanics. The basis for them even sharing a faction at all is ridiculous, especially after a lot of their misdeeds came to light.

 

[Val the Moofia Boss]

No one should have joined the Horde after Warcraft 3, period.

• The Horde welcomes in Sylvanas. She digs up people's graves and tells them "serve me or die". The Orcs just escaped internment and now they're making friends with a slaver. Also, they fled across the ocean to escape conflict with the Alliance... only to then get into conflict with the Alliance again by allowing a faction that is at war with the Alliance and on their side of the planet to join. Great planning fellas!
• The Blood Elves were wrecked by the Horde years earlier, and were apart of the Alliance and are culturally much closer to the Alliance than the savage beastmen. The Alliance also had the resources to help find the Blood Elves an alternative magic source rather than jumping straight to demonic magic or torturing space angels.
• Goblins: again, the Horde welcomes in slavers even though they were founded trying to escape internment.
• Pandaren: Pacifistic. By this point, the Horde has gone back to its old barbaric ways. Also, the expansion starts with Garrosh trying to conquer Pandaria, loot it and exploit its resources. Absolutely zero reason to join the warmongering Horde and ruin their own people. The Pandaren also have Judeo-Christian ideals (they are aesthetically Buddhist but the virtues they uphold are anything but), which again they would fit right in with the Alliance culturally.
• Nightborne: their country was ruined by the demons, and now they're joining a faction that is involved in a global war for no reason. Worse, they're joining the side with an abysmal win-rate (has fought the Alliance 7 times and lost 7 times). No sane leader with the self-preservation of ther country at heart would join the Horde. "Tyrande was rude to me once!" isn't a justification. Also, they are culturally Alliance.
• Highmountain Tauren: they have cousins in the Horde, but again there is no reason for them to join the losing side. Unlike the Shu'halo, the Highmountain weren't on the verge of extinction and taking any help they could get. The Highmountain are already surrounded by several dependable allies.
• AU Mag'har Orcs: in WoD they were horrified to find out what had happened to the Orcs in the original timeline, backstabbing the Draenei and becoming bloodthirsty warmongers and then living in ignimony. Then they got a front row seat to watch it happen AGAIN! And now they're going to reenact this by joining the warmongering Horde that is doing everything they despised in WoD? What on earth?
• Zandalari Trolls: Prior to BFA, the Zandalari were implied to be a global empire that rivaled the Horde and the Alliance unto themselves. They would have no reason to put themselves below a non-Troll Warchief.

 

[Mary Sue Leigh]

I remember only one single mission in WC3 where, playing as Arthas, Silvanas is the enemy. After winning the map, she gets turned into a run of the mill banshee under Arthas' control.
Correct me if I'm remembering that wrong.
But how did the Silvanas stuff get so out of hand after this?

 

[Cyberarmy]

But how did the Silvanas stuff get so out of hand after this?

In WC3s expansion pack, Frozen Throne, Arthas started to lose power rapidly and at one point he lost his grip on Sylvanas. That results in an assassination attempt that fails to kill Arthas but he had to retreat and Sylvanas sides with Varimathras against other demon lords to gain freedom and form the Forsaken.

 

[Val the Moofia Boss]

But how did the Silvanas stuff get so out of hand after this?

I might be misremembering, but my impression is that Metzen wanted the Forsaken to get more story content in WoW than time and budget restrictions allowed. In the game she and the Forsaken didn't do anything after the starter zones until Wrath. After the Lich King died, she became the next most evil character still around and it was popularly assumed she would become an expansion villain at some point. In Cata she once again shows off her villainy by launching an unprovoked invasion of Gilneas, murdering Genn's son for the lolz, blighting the countryside when met with fierce resistance, and then continuing her age old modus operandi of raising people from the dead and giving them the "choice" of either serving her or dying (making her no better than the Lich King players fought against).

After Cata, the game tries recharacterizing her as the Horde's token evil teammate, but not "too evil" (they really try to bury the whole enslavement and Unit 731 warcrimes stuff). Then Metzen leads and new writers take over. Sylvanas is one of the new writer's personal waifu and the narrative begins revolving around her during Legion. She becomes the Warchief for nonsensical reasons (no one trusts her, and there are several other Horde leaders who have seniority. In universe, Vol'jin appoints her Warchief because the spirits said so). Then at the end of Legion, she launches another unprovoked war against the Alliance, the motivations for which were retconned half a dozen times between the tie-in novel, her actual ingame rationale, and then the Shadowlands novels, and then her text in the Shadowlands expansion, and then a Shadowlands patch.

 

[Sykar]

And this is what you get for hiring fan fiction fucktard writers who put personal fetishes and overarching plot convenience over much needed consistency, utterly abysmal nonsensical writing.

 

[Xelocix]

My GF and I keep trying to get into WoW every few months but it's such a clusterfuck for people who aren't 300LB neckbeards who've been playing since the late 2000's. Wish we were able to queue for old expansion content so we could understand what the fuck is happening with the world. How on earth is anybody supposed to get invested in WoW when you're thrown into a bunch of capeshit-tier cinematics and just expected to know almost 20+ years of lore? I wish this game was at least somewhat coherent and not a confusing marvel multiverse wannabe shitshow.

 

[Sykar]

Funny video of a FF 14 player trying WoW the first time. Until I saw this I had no idea just how bad the game has become story wise. It was bad when I left around end of WotLK but holy crap is it shite now.

 

[Val the Moofia Boss]

WoW didn't become story heavy until Wrath. Before then, the "story" was you and your friends roaming around having a good time. There was a main Warcraft storyline at the time but it was happening outside of the game in novels and comics. During Vanilla, King Varian was kidnapped and got divided into two people and was enslaved as a gladiator while Onyxia was taking over Stormwind, but hardly any of this happened ingame. Even once a main storyline started happening in the game, major plot events and character motivations still happened outside of the game in novels.

• If you went from Wrath to Cata, suddenly Warchief Thrall is gone, Garrosh is the new Warchief, Cairne is dead and Baine is now leader of the Tauren. What happened? You had to read the Shattering to find out why.
• If you went from Cata to MoP, suddenly Jaina is back and she has white hair for some reason. Also Theramore is now a smoking crater. Why? You had to read Tides of War!
• If you went from MoP to WoD, the last time you saw Garrosh was him being chained him and taken to jail by Taran Zhu. Also, you were working for Wrathion throughout MoP... and now suddenly Wrathion is hated. What happened? You had to read War Crimes!
• The last time players saw Illidan, he was a hedonistic wannabe galactic warlord who ruled over Outland and had sex slaves and stuff. You worked with rebels to overthrow him and free Outland. Then in Legion, he is suddenly made out to be a misunderstood good guy, the chosen one, and the narrative constantly tries to guilt trip the player for killing him. What happened? You had to read the book!
• The entire reason why the BFA war happened is only revealed in a book (which was then retconned multiple times). Ingame, if you play Horde, you are summoned to an army organizing in the Barrens, and then Sylvanas starts marching into Ashenvale, and you're not told what the Warchief's greater objective is. Are we simply trying to capture more forests for logging? Is there some evil threat? Have the Elves attacked us? You aren't told jack all.

I could go on. Nobbel87 made his Youtube career out of explaining what happened in the novels and who these old WC3 characters are to an audience that only plays WoW.

FFXIV was fortunate in that almost all of the story was told to you in the game. It wasn't until a couple years ago that you started having to consult out of game sources to understand major plot points.

 

[Sykar]

The books did not make it any better. The story is batshit retarded and has no consistency. Yeah the overarching story in Classic was in the background but it was still there. It was something I actually appreciated that it only appeared here and there, instead of looming over your head constantly. It was also not yet batshit retarded.

 

[MajorMace]

When you see the state of modern WoW and compare it to other theme park (or themed semi-sandboxes) mmos out there (TESO, FFXIV), you really wonder how any company can still pour out blatantly perishable content and get away with it.
I made the mistake to have a short exchange with a redditor on the topic of Classic/Modern comparison. It went like this :
- Classic thrives on nostalgia.
- That's quite hypocritical to say considering modern only survives on nostalgia at this point.
- How can new content be succesful because of nostalgia lmao.
This is the analytical level of these people playing modern WoW. They look at the subcount, see that the classic formula drew new players in by millions, see that modern didn't achieve 1/20 of this feat in 15 years and literally not see the obvious.
They don't understand the problem of abolishing any sort of distance by introducing Cataclysm shitshow, abolishing any sort of trouble during the adventuring, abolishing any sense that there's actually some danger out there to seduce new players.
Having to watch Sylvanas talk to wraiths about the lich king a few hours before seeing her become a villain out of some nonsensical cutscene will not cut it I'm afraid.

 

[Sykar]

This happens when your only concern is to satisfy the powergaming retards, who care not one iota about anything but who has the biggest e-peen. One of the worst inventions in WoW to me was the dungeon finder. Previously people actually had to meet up at the instance and had to interact with one another and discuss tactics. Dungeon Finder? You basically get a bunch of solo players who wanktard through piss easy instances without even saying "Hi".
Why they even bothered to create a cohesive world in later expansions is beyond me when people are just sitting in the city checking the AH or watching something on the second monitor, avoiding other players like the plague and ignore 99.9% of the game world.

 

[abija]

But you are a retard that shills for shit like Wolcen.
Dungeon Finder is there so people that don't play a lot (and set very low priority when scheduling their game time) get to play them. The "powergaming retards" have no issue running anything in the game without automatic grouping.
A significant amount of their sales is made by people that "play D2 once for the story". Translated to WoW: buy the "box" and play a couple of months every expansion.

They actually cater very little to the "powergaming retards" simply because that part of their game is a monopoly. They might be loud and complain a lot, make angry YT videos, but at the end of the day... there's no other PVE game to "really" flock to.

 

[MajorMace]

It feels to me that they don't cater to a specific demographic tbh.
It does however feel like they're doing much better in the hl content department than in the others, and their several attempts at refreshing the new player experience always failed while every xpac came with its lot of enjoyable hl content.
I guess this discrepancy can make one feel like they do cater to the audience of the latter.
The echo chamber of the veteran community being adamant on pretending anything before HL doesn't matter nor is the actual game sure didn't help, and now I don't even want to discover what kind of people actually start WoW today and feel compelled by the "levelling" (which, btw, doesn't matter amirite).

It's silly.
If you really don't care, get rid of said leveling. Capitalise on your world and classes by having the "levelling" boil down to complete skill-acquiring quests. Have the whole thing being entirely class-dependant. Hunters will go to Stranglethorn and Un'Goro while Paladins will spend most time in the Plaguelands. Remove any level whatsoever to make it so than, in theory, anybody with all skills unlocked can tag in any dungeon/raid.
Like, if you want to go the fast-food route, do it properly at least...
Nobody wants to sit in a cart watching a muppet show. Neither the veterans nor the sane newbies.

 

[Cromwell]

Dungeon Finder is there so people that don't play a lot (and set very low priority when scheduling their game time) get to play them.

If you dont play a lot and set a very low priority when scheduling your gametime maybe an MMO is not the right genre of game for someone in your position, with 25 kids and 15 jobs.

But I dont think the dungeonfinder was the first issue, I think it was a symptom of the fact that the content accessible through it mattered a lot more than whatever was left.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

"I don't have enough time to play!" people are the reason the MMO genre is completely dead due to years of developers trying to cater to people who end up not even playing their games.

 

[Ravielsk]

"I don't have enough time to play!" people are the reason the MMO genre is completely dead due to years of developers trying to cater to people who end up not even playing their games.

That is not even remotely exclusive to MMOs. During the later half of 2000s this sort of rationale was the reason for essentially discarding most genres as "dead" or severely retooling them into an almost entirely different genres. MMOs are just the most obviously affected because their core design principles were always far more time intensive than say RTS games.