Wizardry Wizardry 8 - first time playing

[Zboj Lamignat]

Their main advantage is not the wide spell selection, since you stick to the crucial ones anyway (freeze, haste, shields, out of combat buffs etc), but the shitload of MPs that having so many spells provide. Being able to not run the fuck out of MP in the middle of the long fight is way more beneficial than being able to cast high dice asphyxiation once or twice.

That's probably the weirdest rationalization of bishop I've read, but if it works for you then sure.

As I said above - high xp requirements or slow element skill gains are not crippling in any way and the progress of 2-school bishop is perfectly optimal. You don't need fucking blizzard or quicksand in Trynton or Swamp.

I don't feel like I ever need these spells, but that's just an exaggeration again. For some spells it doesn't matter much, but for most having bishop as a caster will definitely be perceptible compared to pure casters provided you don't powertrain and even then there's the question of level, which was already mentioned.

Anyway, bishop is imo the kind of class that looks good in guides, but in reality it's usually paying a luxury tax for something you don't really need. I'm almost always building my parties with one pure caster and, with bard and gadgie as options, I never have trouble with covering all spells I feel like using for the given run. The only setup in which I'd see bishop as a recommended option is going without valk/lord and not wanting priest, because having a healing bot with passable melee is meh. Outside of that I dunno, probably just some fringe/silly shit like loading a lot of pure melee specialists, which is boring anyway.

 

[coldcrow]

Let me end this silly debate. A Bishop is of course the superior caster, but only if you spend more time to mature his skills. And on top of that you have to delay levelling for the rest of your party, which will slower the pace even more.
That is the only variable in this. Time you are willing to spend on training skills and levelling.

Edit: And of course the slight risk of fucking up in the training process. But in general Wiz8 is rather easy to break through skilltraining "exploits".

 

[DraQ]

You're not trying to sell me psionic with shite like mindstab or the fire aoe, are you? I can repeat again: if you're cucked out of being the most reliable access to your best spell, which is also the only real game changer you have in your repertoire, then you're in huge trouble.

Oh, you must mean Mage and Infernal Horn here.

In any case Nuclear Blast is not even that good due to late game fire resists.

In comparison Pandemonium is not even a 7th level spell. For that you have Cerebral Hemorrhage (mindstab turbo, granted, Mage's concussion isn't bad either, but mage is not going to have as much SP in mental), Mind Flay and Prismatic Chaos (disco version of Nuclear Blast, now with status effects).

Yeah, samurai can cast enchanted blade, but when will he be able to cast it at high dice? Who else gives you multiple-target paralysis early in the game?

Uh, Priest with Web? Keeps on giving later on by fucking those pesky androids too (they don't like sand in their works, it seems). Yeah, Mage can web too, but they pretty much only have redundant earth spells, so it's better to split the realm between alchemy and divinity casters, leaving Mage mainly with fire+water (similar story with noxious fumes - Mage gets limited mileage from air spells). Plus multi-target insanity isn't necessarily worse as it involves enemies beating the shit out of each other.
And when speaking of lvl 1 psionic can have damage + possible insanity AND paralysis.

That's your niche.

The niche that's taken over by Bard by mid-game?

What is psionic's niche?

Mind rape, duh.

And yeah, being able to inflict some
(traditionally Mage's domain)
on those enemies that happen to be resistant to mind rape helps given that they tend to burn nicely.

If you stick to just two schools (wiz/psi and alc/div are the best combos), there is absolutely no need for grinding spells and rest-spamming - on my first run I took those two and their leveling pace and spells progression were perfectly fine and they did not fell behind. Sure, you get top tier spells later compared to pure casters, but it's not that you need them earlier anyway.

Well, yeah, with 2 school Bishop you can develop schools at maximum pace and still have leftover points.

The only setup in which I'd see bishop as a recommended option is going without valk/lord and not wanting priest, because having a healing bot with passable melee is meh. Outside of that I dunno, probably just some fringe/silly shit like loading a lot of pure melee specialists, which is boring anyway.

How about 2x bard, 2x gadgeteer, and either tank + bishop, or 2 bishops? Bishops are usually for when you are running out of slots.

 

[xuerebx]

Bard sucks in the late game compare to others while Gadgeteer deals immense amount of damage + all cc with his omnigun. Bard may have nice equip but it's nowhere near. Maybe I'm just not aware of some way to make him a decent damage dealer, tell me..

What's "cc"? I see others mentioning it but I can't understand what the acronym refers to.

 

[coldcrow]

Bard sucks in the late game compare to others while Gadgeteer deals immense amount of damage + all cc with his omnigun. Bard may have nice equip but it's nowhere near. Maybe I'm just not aware of some way to make him a decent damage dealer, tell me..

What's "cc"? I see others mentioning it but I can't understand what the acronym refers to.

cc = cold crow ........ cold control.... crowd crow .... crowd control I mean

Edit: Btw, what I didn't mention and afaik no one posted in this threat is: higher controlling attributes for a skill result in faster rate of increasing that skill through practice

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Oh, you must mean Mage and Infernal Horn here.

Yeah, no. That's late game stuff that no one uses and none of these spells you mention later are even close to the relevance of early/mid game buffs/debuffs, most of which scale very well throughout the game. If enchanted blade was only highlight buff of mage and you could find a way to cast it much more reliably than mage can, that would be a similar issue. But you can't.

Uh, Priest with Web? Keeps on giving later on by fucking those pesky androids too (they don't like sand in their works, it seems). Yeah, Mage can web too, but they pretty much only have redundant earth spells, so it's better to split the realm between alchemy and divinity casters, leaving Mage mainly with fire+water (similar story with noxious fumes - Mage gets limited mileage from air spells). Plus multi-target insanity isn't necessarily worse as it involves enemies beating the shit out of each other.

Yeah, mage is super versatile with his spells, thanks for confirming my point on why it's clearly the best newb choice for a pure caster. And insanity is nowhere near as good as paralysis + is another thing that someone else does better.

And when speaking of lvl 1 psionic can have damage + possible insanity AND paralysis.

Yeah, that single target insanity from a 3dmg spell that happened once somewhere around the time kwans were running from vietnam sure is a gamechanger. Sleep is the only relevant spell here, but of course mage has it too.

The niche that's taken over by Bard by mid-game?

Mage is clearly the most resistant to being made irrelevant by bard/gadgie. He is the only one who has two top tier buffs (the most important spells in the game) that cannot be cast from instruments or gadget. No other class has even one. Also, niche until mid game is clearly>>>>>>>>>no niche at all.

Mind rape, duh.

Meh. It's mostly damage (so no niche at all) with possible insanity added on top, which is fairly unreliable and there are much more crippling status effects.

 

[Iluvcheezcake]

6 bishop extravaganza

 

[DraQ]

6 bishop extravaganza

Forget about covering each school, cover each 2 school combo.

 

[Piotrovitz]

Question to fellow potatoes and other Wiz 8 connoisseurs.

I got triggered by this thread and am putting away my Grimwah playthrough in order to do Wiz expert/ironman run.
Never went iron before, so I don't want do fuck this up.

Question on drac fighter build - are 2H swords worth it?

I always went with DW fang/ivory/cuisinart/whatever + diamond eyes and it worked like a charm.
Now I want to try something new, but am worried that 2 handers are shit and will just cripple me, even though stuff like avenger of 4 winds look good on paper.

Not sure if this is true, but I remember reading somewhere that number of swings depends on the weight of the weapon? : [
If so, the 2Hs are indeed way worse choice.

 

[DraQ]

Question to fellow potatoes and other Wiz 8 connoisseurs.

I got triggered by this thread and am putting away my Grimwah playthrough in order to do Wiz expert/ironman run.
Never went iron before, so I don't want do fuck this up.

Question on drac fighter build - are 2H swords worth it?

I always went with DW fang/ivory/cuisinart/whatever + diamond eyes and it worked like a charm.
Now I want to try something new, but am worried that 2 handers are shit and will just cripple me, even though stuff like avenger of 4 winds look good on paper.

Not sure if this is true, but I remember reading somewhere that number of swings depends on the weight of the weapon? : [
If so, the 2Hs are indeed way worse choice.

I haven't really played 2h sord (unless Mook), but they do look sufficiently appealing on paper and it's Wizardry 8.

One thing I would do with ironman (if you have self control) is backing up your save before starting in case one of the following happens:

• Wall eats your party (there is a handful of places where faulty geometry can get you crushed, you are norrmally unlikely to step there but getting TPK'd because you hugged a wall and it ate you is hardly legit).
• You get crushed by door or whatever (I don't remember if it can happen in Wiz8, but party crushing self with swinging door in not legit).
• You get launched high in the air by weird geometry while running around and land somewhere lethal or otherwise fuck-upy (it semi-frequently happens in T'Rang base and tends to land you in the middle of guards, inevitably starting combat, which sucks).

 

[Black]

The thing about weapons in Wiz 8 is that the heavier it is, the more stamina it costs to attack. Excaliber, for example, weighs 24 and will absolutely eat through your stamina if you use berserk, even if you have stamina regenerating items.
On the plus side, you'll be hitting for ~150 damage per swing and you can't put a price on that.
Giant Sword is even heavier than Excaliber so I don't know how mook fighters berserk with that.

 

[DraQ]

Has anyone fully figured out lightning strike math and eligible weapons?

 

[cvv]

Not sure if this is true, but I remember reading somewhere that number of swings depends on the weight of the weapon? : [
If so, the 2Hs are indeed way worse choice.

There are great weps in almost every category, so yeah, good 2H swords...are good.

For mid to lategame though all that really matters are crits. So Samurais with kirijutsu, ninjas with shurikens and a ranger with Elven Bow and Mystic arrows will be doing most of your killing while everyone else will be swinging weps or casting spells mostly to pretend they're useful too.

 

[jackofshadows]

samurai
ninja
monk
ranger
mage
psionic

+ vi domina
+ RFS-81

Is this party playable on normal dificulty for first time player?

Easily. I'd replace monk with another caster or bard though since you're planning to roll with RFS-81 and even have a psionic.

 

[coldcrow]

Has anyone fully figured out lightning strike math and eligible weapons?

IF LvL <= 20 THE
CT_LS = Floor ((LvL * 2 + 60) * 0.12) %
ELSE
CT_LS = 12%
END

Lightning Strike is entirely level-dependent starts out at 7% and maxes out at a 12% chance on sam lvl 20.
Also if the samurai does not attack (condition, defend, movement), the chance in the following turn is set to 0.
That woul explain seeing fewer LS in a classical melee party with a Sam in the frontline - you move up, then obliterate anything in front - move again etc.

 

[DraQ]

Has anyone fully figured out lightning strike math and eligible weapons?

IF LvL <= 20 THE
CT_LS = Floor ((LvL * 2 + 60) * 0.12) %
ELSE
CT_LS = 12%
END

Lightning Strike is entirely level-dependent starts out at 7% and maxes out at a 12% chance on sam lvl 20.
Also if the samurai does not attack (condition, defend, movement), the chance in the following turn is set to 0.

Most interdasting. I assume someone has disassembled game's code to pull it out, then?

That woul explain seeing fewer LS in a classical melee party with a Sam in the frontline - you move up, then obliterate anything in front - move again etc.

Interesting.
That means that with sammy in the party it's better to wait for enemy to come to you.
Will LS proc regardless of melee weapon type wielded by sammy?

 

[coldcrow]

Silicoid pulled out many in-depth formulas. If by simply testing or actually going over the code, idk.

As far as I know, LS will trigger with any weapon, so the Staff Sammy is very much an option, though shit weapons to select from until you get zatoichi bo.

 

[Black]

Has anyone fully figured out lightning strike math and eligible weapons?

IF LvL <= 20 THE
CT_LS = Floor ((LvL * 2 + 60) * 0.12) %
ELSE
CT_LS = 12%
END

Lightning Strike is entirely level-dependent starts out at 7% and maxes out at a 12% chance on sam lvl 20.
Also if the samurai does not attack (condition, defend, movement), the chance in the following turn is set to 0.
That woul explain seeing fewer LS in a classical melee party with a Sam in the frontline - you move up, then obliterate anything in front - move again etc.

What happens if you use the move command to "wait" (select move but don't actually move)?

As far as I know, LS will trigger with any weapon, so the Staff Sammy is very much an option, though shit weapons to select from until you get zatoichi bo.

You could go something like bo --> hayai bo -> staff of doom -> zatoichi bo but ignoring that sweet sword bonus samurais get is tough.

 

[coldcrow]

As I understand if the Sam attacks in any way, he will be eligible for LS in the following turn. But I am only citing what I read elsewhere, so if you really want to know you should run some tests.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

As far as I know, LS will trigger with any weapon, so the Staff Sammy is very much an option, though shit weapons to select from until you get zatoichi bo.

Staff of doom is gettable quite early and better, especially since staff samurai would probably be the same as staff monk - all about them crits.

 

[DraQ]

Silicoid pulled out many in-depth formulas. If by simply testing or actually going over the code, idk.

As far as I know, LS will trigger with any weapon, so the Staff Sammy is very much an option, though shit weapons to select from until you get zatoichi bo.

I was morbidly curious of what would happen if you gave sammy Staff of Doom, though Zatoichi Bo is obviously also a very formidable option.

You could go something like bo --> hayai bo -> staff of doom -> zatoichi bo but ignoring that sweet sword bonus samurais get is tough.

With Zatoichi Bo you can use it as extended range option to reach out to incoming enemies and maximize coverage, then switch to sword(s) or sword+staff 2W (you still have spells and - if Dracon - breath as ranged option).
With Staff of Doom you need to be dedicated, though.

 

[xuerebx]

So I've been exploring and basically followed the road as follows: Monastery > Arnika Road > Arnika > Arnika-Trynton Road > Tyrnton, and now I'm in Trynton. Is there any particular road I should be following or can I just take any road which feels natural? I'm probably missing out on stuff but I want to resist looking at walkthroughs.

Also, those bloody Tyrnnie hunters blocking the walk-ways in the trees

 

[DraQ]

So I've been exploring and basically followed the road as follows: Monastery > Arnika Road > Arnika > Arnika-Trynton Road > Tyrnton, and now I'm in Trynton. Is there any particular road I should be following or can I just take any road which feels natural? I'm probably missing out on stuff but I want to resist looking at walkthroughs.

Also, those bloody Tyrnnie hunters blocking the walk-ways in the trees

Just explore freely and NOPE the fuck away if you see something you cannot handle.

 

[Piotrovitz]

Is there any way to ressurect chars before Arnika?

There are two ressurrection powders on the waterfall, but my mage got fucked up three times already - two times by RNG and got one shot by noxious slimes (and there's only goddamn two of those on the first level), and once by Gregor, due to me being retard and positioning all melees in the middle circle and casters in the back one. I think if melees are in the front row, long-reaching mobs cannot hit your back row, only the front and the middle.

 

[k0syak]

As far as I know, LS will trigger with any weapon, so the Staff Sammy is very much an option, though shit weapons to select from until you get zatoichi bo.

Staff of doom is gettable quite early and better, especially since staff samurai would probably be the same as staff monk - all about them crits.

yeah, but you also need to offset the degen