Incline Wizardry 8 Enhancements - A Call to Arms!

[Kaucukovnik]

Coming back to modding and slowly picking up the pace.

Something very wrong with the Lord has just occured to me. Why is that the class with a shield for an emblem has the least incentive to use it? His dual weapons skill must go! It will also solve his awkward skill development compared to other hybrids.
Switching it for shield (thus penalizing dualwielding) is probably excessive, but it would give him uniqueness as the perfect caretaker. Mace sounds fine (and wouldn't change optimal Lord build too much from vanilla), but maybe a bit dull. Ideas?

 

[DraQ]

Something very wrong with the Lord has just occured to me. Why is that the class with a shield for an emblem has the least incentive to use it?

His dual weapons skill must go!

Give it to Bard. I don't think anyone ever fapped to his communication class bonus either and class this versatile may actually find use for such bonus.

It will also solve his awkward skill development compared to other hybrids.
Switching it for shield (thus penalizing dualwielding) is probably excessive, but it would give him uniqueness as the perfect caretaker. Mace sounds fine (and wouldn't change optimal Lord build too much from vanilla), but maybe a bit dull. Ideas?

The problem with shield is that I don't think I've ever put a point in it with any character or class.
Mace would work, but I'm not sure about it (then again, maces are supposed to be dull).

I've posted quite a few suggestions, but they are dependent on what can be done with special ability.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

That idea is quite interesting. Unfortunately, it would make Lord even more similar to Valkyrie (tanking hybrid with divinity).

 

[DraQ]

That idea is quite interesting. Unfortunately, it would make Lord even more similar to Valkyrie (tanking hybrid with divinity).

That's why something needs to be done with Lord's special abilities (and Valk promoted to Elite, with psionics as extra school).

 

[Kaucukovnik]

I for one have no problem with these two being just flavors of the same class for the most part. And how is Valkyrie vastly superior as tank? That she can take two, maybe three more hits after dying? She comes back to life half-dead and unconscious, which gives it little value outside saving from deadly falls and similar accidents. I've had parties with either Lord or Valk as their primary healer and tank, and both fulfilled the job just about as well.
Psionics + Elite status for Valk is more of a penalty than anything. You won't be able to properly develop both Div and Psi without neglecting physical stats, making higher exp requirement a disadvantage without any meaningful counterweigth to it. Both Lord and Monk would be much better choices, depending on which magic school you are interested in.
Like saying Bishop is overpowered because he has all the spells in the game. Yes, he does - if you powertrain him to hell and back.

I'm much more inclined just to give them both some additional class-specific equipment. Lord's could buff his regeneration to meaningful levels for later game. Valk could have some nice kill % stuff to emphasize offensive capability.

And I'd be more bothered, for example, by the totally broken Stealth, which makes a stealthy frontline the best tanks ever. Armored tin can = punchinge bag getting incapacitated in various ways all the time, stealthy bastard = untouchable by anything but AoE spells.

Dual weapons for Bard sounds good, being the jack of all trades he is.
A problem with Bard is being meaningless to level up beyond 18. Again, equipment could solve this by endgame instruments requiring high Bard level. Bard 18 / something else should still be a viable choice though.

By the way, anyone else got the feeling that those class +25% bonuses to skills are mostly just a powergamer's carrot for the donkey? As in: Yes, you can have someone else wield a polearm, but Valkyrie is always a little bit better. I mean, look at what contributes to attack: multiple primary stats, weapon skill, general combat skill, equipment, buffs. Does the slight bonus to a signle one of those factors really make so much difference? Wouldn't a different race/class with better stat allocation make for more powerful attacks? But who is to resist it, to ignore the bonus and just develop what would fit his build the best?
That being said, I'm highly tempted to remove and replace all wepon-specific class bonuses, just to encourage more freedom and variety.


It's another story with magic skills, as the additional spell penetration does make a difference.

 

[DraQ]

I for one have no problem with these two being just flavors of the same class for the most part.

I do. It's a waste of one entire class.

And how is Valkyrie vastly superior as tank?

Usable specials, class skill bonus remaining useful throughout the game and lack of build troubles.

That she can take two, maybe three more hits after dying? She comes back to life half-dead and unconscious, which gives it little value outside saving from deadly falls and similar accidents.

AFAIK, merely unconscious. Yes, being unconscious is bad in Wizardry 8, but you can easily fix it with smelling salts. Moreover, valk will typically be using a polearm, and therefore will likely occupy central or side slot, meaning you will either have someone in the point to shield her, or, if you use formation with empty point, so that you can have a long line of characters swinging forward, you will be able to shift other characters between valk and enemy as you help her recover.

Psionics + Elite status for Valk is more of a penalty than anything.

A bit. Polearm+CC+Divinity is much easier than any other hybrid's skillset that typically includes critical strike, melee/scouting (if ranger) or 2w+secondary weapon skill (if lord) in addition to primary skills.

You won't be able to properly develop both Div and Psi without neglecting physical stats

Not really. One more skill to consider will merely bring valk's point management to the level of other hybrids. As it is valk has only CC, polearm and divinity to pump points into (assuming "typical" builds - combat focused on class advantage, casting and builds between those), which allows her to develop both combat and casting at full speed without forcing any compromises. Compare samurai which has CC, sword, wizardry, but also crit and possibly even 2w; monk which will typically have to split points between martial arts (or some other combat skill), cc, crit, stealth AND psi; lord usually having to pump both 2w AND secondary weapon skill; or ranger having dilemmas over sacrificing points for for cc and melee weapon skill or maybe scouting.

Valk with two casting skills won't have it harder than any other hybrid and still easier than lord. OTOH being able to wrap heavy armour, polearm and two casters into one party slot would definitely be interesting.

Also, mindblast rod is a polearm which is only usable by psi-capable characters. Would be a good excuse to let valk use it.

Both Lord and Monk would be much better choices, depending on which magic school you are interested in.

What if I want both AND some tanking, but only have one slot left?

Like saying Bishop is overpowered because he has all the spells in the game. Yes, he does - if you powertrain him to hell and back.

Again, Bishop makes only sense in the context of limited party size. It's 2-4 different casters, except crippled. That only makes sense if you take into account that you may want 2-4 different caster but don't have 2-4 different slots left. Same with valk revamp I propose.

I'm much more inclined just to give them both some additional class-specific equipment. Lord's could buff his regeneration to meaningful levels for later game. Valk could have some nice kill % stuff to emphasize offensive capability.

Specialized equipment is a bit cludgy way to make class interesting, though, and regen is just boring - it doesn't really give class any particular flavour.
When I think of idealised knightly dude, I think of stuff like etiquette and leadership (if tying some party-wide bonus to communication skill was possible - you could even reutilize bard's communication bonus by sticking it onto lord), or maybe some level dependent magic resistances like with monk's physical damage reduction.

And I'd be more bothered, for example, by the totally broken Stealth, which makes a stealthy frontline the best tanks ever. Armored tin can = punchinge bag getting incapacitated in various ways all the time, stealthy bastard = untouchable by anything but AoE spells.

True that. Then again, stealth in general is pretty questionable in blob context.

By the way, anyone else got the feeling that those class +25% bonuses to skills are mostly just a powergamer's carrot for the donkey? As in: Yes, you can have someone else wield a polearm, but Valkyrie is always a little bit better. I mean, look at what contributes to attack: multiple primary stats, weapon skill, general combat skill, equipment, buffs. Does the slight bonus to a signle one of those factors really make so much difference?

Well, they still provide quite a bit of extra oomph.

Wouldn't a different race/class with better stat allocation make for more powerful attacks?

What if you already have optimal race/class and point allocation for your build? Then +25% is pretty nice to have.

That being said, I'm highly tempted to remove and replace all wepon-specific class bonuses, just to encourage more freedom and variety.

That might work, but what with?

I'd certainly replace that communication bonus on bard (possibly with 2w as it would work nicely for bards) and 2w on lord with something else.
Lord in particular needs to be made not dependent on 2w and 1h weapons as class - with all those nice polearms an bigass swords dropping around.

 

[Coriolanus]

25% bonuses don't stack past 100. Thankfully, weapon skills don't rise as fast as in Wiz 7 so you may not get there until mid-game, but still - % stop counting when they should start to make a difference (i.e. with big numbers), while they are irrelevant in early game when your damage is low.

Lord's innate regenerate is either useless or very strong - some very good items also come with stacking -HP/sec, which only Lord of all classes can handle. If you plan on adding such items in your mod - consider this an indirect (but very important) buff to the class.

Valkyrie is overall stronger than Lord, but they are quite different. There's also no reason to make your own Valk in vanilla Wiz 8 since there is always Vi. You don't like pure casters that sit idle most of the time and want at least 2 guys in party with high-level Priest spells? Pick Lord.

Re: tanking, why would you have a Valk in front row, tanking and wasting a front-line melee slot, when you can have her in back row being just as effective with a polearm?

Of course, Figher is still completely imbalanced and the very best class in the game for damage output, overbuffed from his days of neglect in the earlier Wizardries. When playing to win (Ironman, Dodd's) I often convert my hybrids to Fighter once they get all their spells (not the ones with great unique-class equipment, though). Berserk (+ innate stamina regen!), stun chance that seems to proc quite often... perfect killing machines.

 

[DraQ]

25% bonuses don't stack past 100.

I'm not expert on Wiz 8 mechanics, but I'm pretty sure they do, apart from 2w which only reduces penalties from 2w and caps at 100 when they are all eliminated.

Lord's innate regenerate is either useless or very strong - some very good items also come with stacking -HP/sec, which only Lord of all classes can handle.

But there are also +HP items that can compensate for that. And those -HP items generally don't stack well with Lord's class skill.

Re: tanking, why would you have a Valk in front row, tanking and wasting a front-line melee slot, when you can have her in back row being just as effective with a polearm?

I typically use formation with empty point, melee attackers on wings and centers and fragile caster and dedicated ranged characters in the back, readjusting on the fly if confronted by extended range attackers or other circumstances. It allows me to put more than 3 close ranged attackers in direct contact with the enemy in front, switching characters on wings between striking to the front and sides on demand and cover any incapacitated characters by moving others to the unoccupied point if necessary. This formation makes exposed center best suited for extended range characters - such as valk - as they can reach any point around the party from there, but also exposes them to direct frontal assault, hence tanking.

 

[Wizfall]

The 25 bonus work except for dual wielding after 100.
Fighter and thief are OP, a 50%damage bonus instead of 100% would be perfect (still much better at melee with the fast level and having fewer stats/skills to raise).
Bards are very useful even after level 18 with all the instruments even without switching class
But the best combo of all the game is switching a bard 18 to fighter lvl 19 (he should have around 96 in music by then). Very easy to do, lose almost nothing to switch class and character is awesome right from the start to the very end.

Valkyrie are much better than Lord but not OP.
Lord dual wield bonus and hp regen bonus is awful, the class is only bad looking at the Valk class though.
Mage and Psionic suck, should have at least as much hp as bishop. I would give them as much hp as priest, would absolutely not be OP IMHO.
Bishop are very OP, give them only 2 school of magic (divinity and wizardry) and they would still be a great class. Moreover would make Psionics, monks, ranger, alchemist and ninja class more interesting as well as party build.

All damage spells should do 50% more average damage (mostly increase the min damage/level) but cost around 25% more mana to cast.
It's right at the beginning of the game and still not enough at the end (but better not enough than OP is my motto)

 

[Wizfall]

Also the omnigun suck at the beginning and even after until you got the repeater, a ridiculous sling being better at the very start and a double crossbow better a bit later (until the repeater).
I would at least remove the penalty to hit and ini of the omnigun at the beginning and making the upgrade to repeater happening sooner (should be available at the time you are able to make double shot crossbow).
I would nerf tripleshot crossbow by adding/increasing penalty to hit and ini.
Would rebalance a lot of weapons, mostly more or less a big nerf to the most powerful (especially but not only in term of special effect like 30% KO or 25% paralysis) .
Axe need some love (i make the cleaver one handed for example but a tiny bit less powerful) but not too much (balance them mostly by nerfing the too powerful other weapons class).

I would maybe nerf stealth bonus by 50%.
To compensate i would double the natural monk damage resistance which is too low to have any effects (even with a dwarf) and make ninja hybrid class instead of elite.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Hey, no nerfing of triple shot crossbow.

 

[Kaucukovnik]

Just to make it clear what can be done and what cannot (to my knowledge):

Classes:
-class skill (the +25% one)
-4 professional skills that get a starting bonus
-skill and magic school availability
-magic level offset (how many level ups it takes for magic skills to appear & penalty to spell efficiency)
-required attributes
-base hit points per level
-up to 3 class abilities, also racial abilities can be used as class ones (most look awkward thanks to their specific names)
Skills can be also associated to different attributes, but I wouldn't touch that at all.

So we cannot, for example, adjust the magnitude of rogue and fighter damage bonuses.

Items:
-weight, price, stackability, cursed/critical/persistent in shops, difficulty to identify
-damage, initiative, to hit, bonus swings, range (short / extended / thrown / ranged)
-slaying (specific class or type of creature, like demons or rynjin)
-1 or 2 handed, primary, secondary
-regeneration (HP, ST, MP), resistances (any combination), armor class
-attribute bunus/penalty (1 attrib only), skill bonus/penalty (also only 1 skill), usage skill
-contained spell,, usage type (consumable, gadget, instrument, item with charges), number of charges (can be infinite)
-attribute and skill requirements (upt to 2 of both)
-class, race and sex availability


Extended range in the front line is a very good idea, especially for slower characters. Even if there are no more enemies in the immediate vicinity, the character can attack the next row of enemies right away. That can save you hundreds of points of damage per combat, especially if your quick insta-killers tend to "steal" victims from their heavy-hitting comrades.

Divinity & hybrids: I see divinity as the least troublesome magic for them, as most of your spells are targeted at your allies, so you don't miss that much on power cast. And towards the end, one more Superman tends to be more useful than anything you can cast on enemies. More resurrecting capacity for those pesky insta-killers also helps.
Instead of comparing lord and valkyrie, take 'em both and enjoy the heavan!


One big improvement that could be done is reducing resistances all across the board - for both characters and enemies. That would make most spells of both parties effective throughout the game. Maximized Magic screen + both shields wouldn't grant nigh invulnerability. Sounds interesting? :D
I'm aware that further balancing would be necessary. But I can't imagine any other important change for the better regarding class/skill balance.

And then we could return to arguing the merits of different magic schools.
One idea for differentiation: Lord could get strong fire and mental resistance and Valkyrie would resist water & air (frost and wind). To me, that oozes flavor. Of course, classes don't have resistances (only races do), so items would have to take care of this.

You can see why I tend to solve so much through items.
And of course, such "itemized" balancing needs to be systematic, a single "+50%" item for such purpose would be dumb.


By the way, I think this answers a lot of facepalms:

(from the credits of JA2)

 

[TigerKnee]

Kaucukovnik: What kind of tools are you using to change those stuff? Or are you editing the exe file itself?

 

[Kaucukovnik]

http://mad-god.webs.com/cosmicforge.htm

 

[TigerKnee]

I didn't realize the Cosmic Forge had such functionality now. I should screw around with it just for fun.

 

[Kaucukovnik]

Yeah, mad god's name is quite deserved, he must be totally insane seeing what he made possible without a glimpse on the source, unlike JA2.

And I'm pretty sure there are scripting workarounds for some of the hardcoded limitations I mentioned earlier. If someone understands Lua, it may be worth taking a look at the Cosmic Forge documentation.

 

[DraQ]

Valkyrie are much better than Lord but not OP.

Actually I don't think Valks are OP as much as they are under involving.

None of the divinity hybrids is OP because they lack offensive special abilities to compensate for the lack of berserk compared to fighter (non-divinity hybrids generally have some sort of instakill in addition to their special, samurais also get lightning strike), but Valk has incredibly straightforward development compared to other hybrids - 3*CC+3*Polearm+3*Divinity each level. No dilemma between pumping might or magic, no fucking around with 2w or having to scrounge points for critical strike.
By comparison Lord has it even harder than typical hybrid, while also lacking aggressive hitting power, and then has lame regen instead of not dying as special.

-up to 3 class abilities, also racial abilities can be used as class ones (most look awkward thanks to their specific names)

That's too vague for me - what exactly can and what cannot be done with class specials?
Because essentially half of the proposed rebalancing hinges on that.

Extended range in the front line is a very good idea, especially for slower characters. Even if there are no more enemies in the immediate vicinity, the character can attack the next row of enemies right away. That can save you hundreds of points of damage per combat, especially if your quick insta-killers tend to "steal" victims from their heavy-hitting comrades.

Also, if you use empty point formation, then your front line includes the center, which means Valk can also splatter an enemy trying to assrape your back row.
The only minus of empty point is that it's excessively vulnerable to extended range attackers as your back row will be both within their range and facing away by default, but then you can adjust in the first turn.

Divinity & hybrids: I see divinity as the least troublesome magic for them, as most of your spells are targeted at your allies, so you don't miss that much on power cast. And towards the end, one more Superman tends to be more useful than anything you can cast on enemies.

Then again, superman is also available in liquid form and divinity hybrids suffer huge penalty from cursed weapons as they force them to mostly stand holding their dicks while enemy is out of range and then face dilemma between healing and bashing heads in when the enemy is in range.

More resurrecting capacity for those pesky insta-killers also helps.

For emergencies you have powder. For non emergencies you have rest to replenish your dr West's spellpoints. If your doc West himself croaks, you mix a bit from column A and a bit from column B.

Anyway, what are the class changes so far?
I propose:

Samurai:
+naginata and all sorts of spears, as well as polearm skill (fits flavour)
-shields and shield skill (fits flavour)

Ninja:
+all minimal armour
+all weapons that are weeaboo, concealable or can be considered not weapons of war
+backstab
-alchemy (?)
-HP
Maybe cut down thieving skills

Think weeaboo rogue with crit, autopenetrate on throw, but shitty armour, very fragile, shitty thieving skills and elite XP requirements. Completely murders shit in melee and at close range but needs to be protected and micromanaged in formation to avoid dropping like fly.

Bard:
-communication as class skill (still gets starting bonus)
+2w as class skill

Valkyrie:
+Psi skill (fits the prescience flavour in mythology, gives extra skill to worry about, broadens class role, differentiates from Lord)
-increase XP requirements to Elite

The idea is to have unique hybrid of tank and 2-school (psi,div) bishop. Gets both schools at level 5. Point management on par with normal hybrids (hassle free CC+polearm now compensated for by two magic schools), can now meaningfully choose between focusing on martial or magical side in terms of skills. Squeezes 2 (half assed, as other hybrids) casters and a tank into one slot.

Lord:
???
-suck
+awesome

maybe add prayer or something?

 

[townltu]

some suggestions, all has been carefully tested

A naginata clone with small kill chance, a little below 6.0 lbs, flagged as sword and only useable by Samurais.
Nun chuk clone to "3-sectional staff" with extended range, up to 4.0lbs, small armour bonus and martial arts skill assigned,
requires decent dex/spd + CC/MA useable by ninja, monk, perhaps etc.

note that MA is the only skill (besides the ones of classic W8) that i could assign to a weapon,
else the characters could not attack with it, eg a mage specific wand which uses wizardry skill for attacks.


The rocket launcher and its ammo have unique Appearance IDs(despite the description, that ID determines an items basic functionality in game)
ID#140 will only accept ammo with ID#141, and, as far as i could see, use the values of ID#140 if fired, with exception, see below.
If you sacrifice the rocket launcher (assign e.g. a musket or blunderbuss in Rubbles NPC script block 143 instead of the launcher)
you can make "real" blow guns or another modern weapon.
btw, ammo will add its assigned bonuses only if the user has it in his secondary weapon slot equipped
(backdraw: last shot(s) in weapon will fire without bounus if 2ndary slot is empty,
and a gun loaded with standard ammo will benefit from bonus of ammo in 2ndary slot.)
However, therefore my "sniper guns" for late game are single handed, and spcl ammo is very rare.

btw 2nd, the frontier phaser has Appearance ID#110,
such items will require ammo with appearance ID#132 if you set their "Charge/amount type" to "Zero-based, persistant"


You can create self-"reloadble" items, i will use the mana stone as example:
To prevent disppearing on last use, assign a modifier either to: ini,to hit, bonus swings, any regeneration or resinstance
Assign a constant value for "found quantity(=charges when found), i.e. xD1+y
In field "Can be created", assign the item itself and anything you like as the 2nd component.
Note that the "recharge"(=merge items) cant be done during combat.



Vanilla is already a cakewalk, i see no need to buff the pcs with changes on the mechanics,
only the danger to screw it up for other Players that use different parties/tactics than the ones who playtested the changes.
My recommendation is to keep the power of monsters items and pcs in given ranges
with only minimal adjustments on the basic mechanics,
instead as Kaucukovnik IV already said preferably by specific items


If you want spells to be more powerful in general, rise the mana costs,
a lvl1 spell with 500mana/ppl, casted from lvl1 mage will be nearrly 100% effective
on all monsters up to lvl 80-90 with reasonable resistance(<200) in the specific realm.

 

[Kaucukovnik]

Available class/race specials:

* Unusual equipment is the Faerie stuff, can be changed (not for individual races/classes though, just the same set of special stuff for anyone with the trait)


And I strongly suggest taking a look at the Cosmic Forge for yourself, it will answer all your questions way faster and better.


Divine / melee the way I often use it: I like small parties of hybrids. Adding a priest would make him more of liability than help. A divine hybrid confused can cover all the needs for healing and protection, bashing heads / impaling foes when there is no need for his/her magic. I don't even have to compromise combat stats in order to keep most spells effective, unlike my samurai or ninja, who will want Power Cast for that.
I'll take a Lord and Valk instead of Fighter and Priest any day. Especially after I add some unique gear for both. (don't worry, more classes will get such treatment)


And now for something completely different:
Wouldn't decreasing enemy spawns directly RAISE the overall difficulty? You'd get less experience and training opportunities, while quest experience would still earn you many level-ups, and some set encounters would remain powerful.
That would mean removing most pacing and balance/flavor problems in a very elegant manner.

EDIT: Good to see you here again, townltu!

 

[townltu]

...
Wouldn't decreasing enemy spawns directly RAISE the overall difficulty? You'd get less experience and training opportunities, while quest experience would still earn you many level-ups, and some set encounters would remain powerful.
That would mean removing most pacing and balance/flavor problems in a very elegant manner.

to use a favourite Borg expression, thats "irrelevant"

Training "partners" are most valuable and have to be permanently healed,
also recommendable is protection with BoS and even more important GA if charcters with instakilli come into play.
btw a hit on GA protected target will result in null anim, thus speeding the training decisevily

btw "training partners": i like the swallowers on SEW bridge, especially for my beloved solo runs, as it really keeps the thrill up :D


Many thanks for the welcome!
I send my best wishes and good vibes to you

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Swallowers are awesome.
The Nodais are fucking annoying with their high DR and health. Though armormelt is great against them.
For the most part tho, many enemies have some sort of weakness to magic or status.
Inflict that, and they fall into line and wait to be knocked over.

 

[DraQ]

some suggestions, all has been carefully tested

A naginata clone with small kill chance, a little below 6.0 lbs, flagged as sword and only useable by Samurais.

Confusing and redundant.
Naginatas are polearms and should be usable by samurais.

RL samurais were pretty much synonymous with sword, spear & bow trinity, so I don't see why it should be any different in Wiz8. Simply give samurai polearm skill, ditch shield skill, cross samurais out from allowed class list for shields allow them for polearms. Oh, and move one of their starting bonuses from 2w to polearm or bow.

Of course, I don't have anything against adding nagamaki.

Nun chuk clone to "3-sectional staff" with extended range, up to 4.0lbs, small armour bonus and martial arts skill assigned,
requires decent dex/spd + CC/MA useable by ninja, monk, perhaps etc.

Again, I'm against. Consistency is important. If nunchucks, flails, whips and chains are all classed as flails, then so should 3-sectional-staff.

If you sacrifice the rocket launcher

Removal sucks.

You can create self-"reloadble" items, i will use the mana stone as example:
To prevent disppearing on last use, assign a modifier either to: ini,to hit, bonus swings, any regeneration or resinstance
Assign a constant value for "found quantity(=charges when found), i.e. xD1+y
In field "Can be created", assign the item itself and anything you like as the 2nd component.
Note that the "recharge"(=merge items) cant be done during combat.

That's a nifty little trick.

 

[townltu]

... redundant.
Naginatas are polearms and should be usable by samurais.

RL samurais were pretty much synonymous with sword, spear & bow trinity, so I don't see why it should be any different in Wiz8. Simply give samurai polearm skill, ditch shield skill, cross samurais out from allowed class list for shields allow them for polearms. Oh, and move one of their starting bonuses from 2w to polearm or bow.

That may fit to your personal likings but i know dozens of players, incl myself, who would not like that solution,
the change of some skills will only shift the variety, and with it the peolple who like it,
while the items add options for those who like it, else they can simply be ignored if they are reasonable balanced.

If nunchucks, flails, whips and chains are all classed as flails, then so should 3-sectional-staff.

Well, you should try a run with 2 identical monks, one using a flail based santsuekon, the other a MA based one.
Unfortunately there is no PvP option in Wiz 8, [m_loner20_014.mp3] :D

 

[Shadenuat]

I see Lord as a class with innate Shield bonus, some immunities and regeneration. Add a Carsomyr equivalent to the game and I think he'll be all set. Valk could have a more offensive oriented spell set.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Giving Lord a shield bonus instead of 2w is... probably the most decent idea about changing that class so far. But instead of underlining his more offensive side, it will only make him more similar to the Valkyrie (tanking).

Just to repeat my point: I wouldn't change any of the classes, with the exception of the ninja (strip him of the alchemy, lower exp requirements to those of a normal hybrid). If you plan to add such thing, I would be really happy if these changes came as an optional component.

Fixing the balance through equipment is where it's at. And I don't mean adding tons of dumb op stuff like all major Wiz8 mods were doing, just balancing what's already there. Giving easier access to some stuff (thrown weapons, ninja daggers, samurai armour), while making other stuff much more difficult to get (bloodlust ffs). Also making more stuff a guaranteed drop, but at the same time making all artefacts unique.