Incline Wizardry 8 Enhancements - A Call to Arms!

[DraQ]

... redundant.
Naginatas are polearms and should be usable by samurais.

RL samurais were pretty much synonymous with sword, spear & bow trinity, so I don't see why it should be any different in Wiz8. Simply give samurai polearm skill, ditch shield skill, cross samurais out from allowed class list for shields allow them for polearms. Oh, and move one of their starting bonuses from 2w to polearm or bow.

That may fit to your personal likings but i know dozens of players, incl myself, who would not like that solution

Well, tough shit then, but I couldn't care less what you would and wouldn't like. I'm giving objective reasons for switching skills around, namely the fact that Samurai in Wizardry 8 has no skill and cannot use some of samurai's signature weapons (naginata, spear), but has skill and can use something unrelated to his character concept (shields).

As for moving starting bonus around (preferably to bow due to situational utility), it would broaden variety by not attempting to funnel Samurais down the dual wielding path (of course nothing would stand in the way of putting points there manually) and instead letting them focus on 2h stuff like no-dachi or some high-end swords without feeling guilty about wasting preallocated points.

Those are objective reasons, not "waaah I would like...".

the change of some skills will only shift the variety, and with it the peolple who like it,
while the items add options for those who like it, else they can simply be ignored if they are reasonable balanced.

Well, you should try a run with 2 identical monks, one using a flail based santsuekon, the other a MA based one.
Unfortunately there is no PvP option in Wiz 8, [m_loner20_014.mp3] :D

You are consistently missing the point.

Wizardry 8 assigns weapons to skills in certain manner. This manner includes putting all polearms in polearm class, and all flexible weapons in mace&flail. If you start to include polearms that are swords and nunchucks that are fists, then you're muddling shit up for no discernible reason and defeating the point of having named weapon skills in the first place.

Giving Lord a shield bonus instead of 2w is... probably the most decent idea about changing that class so far.

I have one slight objection against it - given how some of Lord's worst problems stem from being funneled into specific playstyle (2w), I'm not sure about funneling this class in yet another direction. Also, is shield skill worth it?
Because conceptually it would be nice.

 

[townltu]

Hi DraQ, dont take it personal as it wasnt meant that way,
i have repeteadly thought about the impacts of changes and discussed them with other modders and players,
as i am actually working on an update of Qusaris reforged mod,
the feedbacks showed that switches would be welcomed only by less players, adding options has more acceptance,
besides that its also preferable because of less interference to the existing mechanics,
respectively less effort to reorganize placed items/loot and last not least less need for balancing playtests.
Many values in Wiz8 are already unlogigal if compared to RL,
but probably better balanced than people think
e.g. the unrealistic weight of weapons appears mainly used for balancing combats.


I would prefer a general increase of class abilities and professional skills
i.e. give Samurais the polearm skill additionally to the existing ones (we dont need to switch)
Lord and Valk each have 2 Abilities and 1 professional skill unassigned, similar most other classes



@K VI
Its your soup, never let the "others", no matter whether cooks or consumers (of course except me
have a more than neglectable influence on the ingredients,
else you will end up with a bunch of tastes but no significant flavour of the meal.

 

[Kaucukovnik]

The idea behind the mod is "the same good old Wiz8, but polished", an unofficial patch that's recommendable for the first (and posssibly the only) playthrough. If you are a veteran player, your knowledge should retain its usefulness. When I get to version 1.0, I'd like to have all item graphics completed, along with fixing issues that can be fixed without rearranging the game too much. All current builds/party compositions should remain valid options.

From then onward, new areas, items, monsters, whatever else can be added. Along with deeper changes in the game, should the need arise. That will be a version for people who have finished the game, and want moar stuff / some novelty.


I agree that weapons using unrelated skills in order to cater to certain class/build is a messy approach. If anything, an entire class of "martial arts" weaponry could be defined, but systematically - sai, nunchaka, bo...all of those. And I'd keep it for those various-new-shit-adding iterations, not the base "patch-like" mod.

Turning Lord from dual-wielder into shield defender seems too drastic to me, but I'd give him a starting bonus + some nice shield. Making Dragon Kite a Lord only shield and buffing it a bit could do. Again, later we could make the Lord a proper defender, along with making some encounters require a shield for facing them comfortably. It's true that as of now shield skill is of too little importance to warrant an entire class dedicated to it.

Valkyrie could get a speed buff through items. Both Valk and Lord tend to be rather slow, which doesn't seem exactly right with the former (unless you count those usually seen in operas).


And I'd take into consideration that among us here, townltu has previous experience with play-tested changes to the game.


EDIT: townltu: Don't worry, I'm egoistic enough to put in only those changes I can fully agreee with.

 

[DraQ]

Hi DraQ, dont take it personal as it wasnt meant that way

No prob.

Many values in Wiz8 are already unlogigal if compared to RL

I'm arguing from the point of thematic and mechanical consistency here, though.
Even I am not mad enough to try and make Wiz8 realistic.
but probably better balanced than people think
e.g. the unrealistic weight of weapons appears mainly used for balancing combats.

I would prefer a general increase of class abilities and professional skills
i.e. give Samurais the polearm skill additionally to the existing ones (we dont need to switch)
Lord and Valk each have 2 Abilities and 1 professional skill unassigned, similar most other classes

Can't argue with that. In case of samurai adding polearms and polearm skills is definitely more important than doing anything with shields, although I would probably still argue for dropping them. If we are to buff shields it might make sense to limit their use.
As for testing I don't expect significant impact of adding or removing skills so far from the profession's "core".

I agree that weapons using unrelated skills in order to cater to certain class/build is a messy approach. If anything, an entire class of "martial arts" weaponry could be defined, but systematically - sai, nunchaka, bo...all of those.

Also this.

Turning Lord from dual-wielder into shield defender seems too drastic to me, but I'd give him a starting bonus + some nice shield.

2w as Lord's favoured skill needs to go, though.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Also, is shield skill worth it?

From the character's point of view? Shields offer nice AC bonus which is further increased by the skills, also many of them have some nice additional bonuses like resistances and stat increases. It also offers a chance to parry dmg completely, though how it works exactly is yet another of Wiz8 mysteries akin to critical chance calculations. It's definitely something to consider, that's why many people advise using shields for samurai, who is rather squishy and offhand swords are rather meh. Personally I wouldn't exchange it for diamond eyes, since I prefer an offensive style (I never put any points into vitality either).

Taking a wider context into consideration? Stealth still offers a better protection and leaves both hands free. It does require training though, while a character wielding a shield and clad in a heavy armour is a bitch to kill from the start. Unfortunately the tanking mechanics in Wiz8 aren't great, enemies can and will bypass your tanks (you cannot even block ranged attacks which are the biggest threat to the back row).

 

[DraQ]

Personally I wouldn't exchange it for diamond eyes, since I prefer an offensive style (I never put any points into vitality either).

That's why I asked, I prefer murdering shit that can damage me as my primary means of defense as well.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

I think DraQ 's idea for samurai is spot on actually and really does make the class unique. Polearms, Bow, and Sword, less on TWF and Shield.
That's a good un.

 

[Kaucukovnik]

Agreed. How about this:

Samurai:
enable Polearm skill, add Polearm as Professional skill
- make all spears + Naginata usable by samurai (!not all polearms)
- no Dragon Kite and probably neither *Light* *Shield*

- and in the "new content" version:
Nagamaki - slower, heavy-hitting 2-handed katana
Yari - samurai-only spear, slays Samurai (duelling "honor" weapon) - will work against Rapax samurais


Lord:
Additional ability: +2 AC Bonus
Bonus skill: Mace & Flail
Add Dual weapons as Professional skill (no need to turn any class 180 degrees around)

- among new stuff:
Lord only plate with 1-2 more AC than the next best, and +5 health regen to make it meaningful late-game
Eventually a new shield, for Fighter/Lord, with Divinity or Piety requirement, so that dual classing your Lord remains an option

 

[Major_Blackhart]

That all looks good actually.

 

[Kaucukovnik]

Version 0.6 is here!

What's new:


-changes to character classes, necessitating the use of CFAgent

-fixed crocodiles' dodge anim speed

-reverted changes to Zatoichi Bo (already had set location, samurai should be able to use it)

-cured dwarven legs and ass problems, behold:

(stole them from their gals, hope dey don't mind)

-fixed coordinates of several item icons

-added item icons for remaining axes, all staves and a few more items

-removed some more crappy loot from high-level lists and slightly decreased total number of items per drop

-optimized the ways of item re-distribution, cutting down the size of the mod by 23 MB



Updated the original post.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Wooo!

 

[hoverdog]

No more frog-dwarves

 

[Major_Blackhart]

How is the editing process going at this point?

 

[DraQ]

How about offhand enabling Beastslayer - the only custom weapon that can be made more than once, belonging to an underwhelming weapon class?

 

[I_am_Ian]

And maybe a two handed staff a fighter can use between the quarter staff and Staff of Doom?

 

[DraQ]

And maybe a two handed staff a fighter can use between the quarter staff and Staff of Doom?

I wouldn't object to that, but there are 1h staves too.

 

[I_am_Ian]

Or at least make some of the mid level staffs appear earlier in the game. The Bonebasher is nice but not available until the Rapax castle.

 

[Kaucukovnik]

How is the editing process going at this point?

The most time consuming part towards 1.0 is item graphics, the biggest untouched categories being swords and misc.equippables. Won't make every single bloody ring and necklace unique, a few more types + some uniques should do.

After some eventual bugfix 1.0x, there will be a solid base for all additions. From this point on, adding items, monsters and areas can begin.

1.1 will add final versions of crypt and pagoda
1.2 at least a part of the dwarven town
and so on...

So it's about tiny pictures right now. Currently 148 new images, the total will be around 200.


I'll think about the staves, sooner or later some will be definitely added.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Are you talking about the inventory art or the in game models?

 

[DraQ]

I'll think about the staves, sooner or later some will be definitely added.

What about dat ax?

 

[Kaucukovnik]

Inventory art only. Vanilla models are often rather hideous (hate the reflexive ones), but I don't plan on modifying them.

And dat ax sounds reasonable, it will get on par with Diamond Eyes against non-beasts. Expect it in 0.7.
Poor Hogars...

 

[townltu]

Not quite sure whether i sent you the link to a file in my dropbox named [wiz8_modding_ressources_update.rar]
inside is [items_sti_files.rar] which contains some diy pics, some for common items, others for special stuff.
Most of them have the corresponding 3D items in subarchive [items3d.rar]

I would be highly pleased if one or the other is consired good enough to find a place in your mod.

In case you are interested and i missed to send the link/it was lost/is buried deep in the mysterious folder dungeons of your HDD etc pp, let me know.

 

[Kaucukovnik]

Yep, found it. You got some serious arsenal in that folder. Chainsaw, Walther 2000, P94 Plasma Rifle...

And I'll be happy to use some of the more conventional items. Thanks, cheers!

 

[Kaucukovnik]

Incorporating some obscure references...

(made the hilt different as the Wiz8 Excalibur is 2-handed)



And I was looking at some beta images and thought that a partial recreation of this UI could be a refreshing alternative:

Some elements are still present in the game data.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

looks real good actually.