Why so few games with permadeath/ironman/hardcore modes?

[JarlFrank]

The point is, it is always the same encounter and location with same loot and same everything else. It is always the same, for the 1st time and for the 5th time. Otoh thanks to randomness you can be surprised.

I played many roguelikes over the years

Have you played Infra Arcana or DoomRL? I'd put their procedurally generated levels up against just about any handcrafted levels from a different game. I think maybe you just haven't played the best roguelikes.

I did, and their best levels are actually mostly handcrafted

DoomRL's special levels like the arena, military base, etc are basically handcrafted with minor variations.
The regular levels are just like every other roguelike: generic and indistinguishable from each other.

 

[JarlFrank]

As to mod tools. Sure, I very much for it and i also hope for kotc2. I really hope for many different scenarios. However it is not very relevant to the subject at hand. Each mod is a new scenario or game. It won't help replaying a game or scenario that is already made and it won't help with permadeath games.

But isn't the point of procedural generation in games that you're always playing a different game with different levels and encounters?
Yes, each mod is a new scenario, but so is each procedurally generated level in a roguelike. You're never going to get the same levels and encounters ever again (unless you saved the random seed and can manually type it in to get the generation you want), so it's like a different game each time. Sure, the structure is the same, but the content differs.

 

[buffalo bill]

The point is, it is always the same encounter and location with same loot and same everything else. It is always the same, for the 1st time and for the 5th time. Otoh thanks to randomness you can be surprised.

I played many roguelikes over the years

Have you played Infra Arcana or DoomRL? I'd put their procedurally generated levels up against just about any handcrafted levels from a different game. I think maybe you just haven't played the best roguelikes.

I did, and their best levels are actually mostly handcrafted

DoomRL's special levels like the arena, military base, etc are basically handcrafted with minor variations.
The regular levels are just like every other roguelike: generic and indistinguishable from each other.

Infra Arcana has only two handcrafted levels in the game iirc, and both are deep in. Strong disagree on doomrl

 

[Morpheus Kitami]

I honestly can't see an argument for not randomly generating enemy lineups and such within set parameters. When you know a fight is coming up at an inn, but you don't know the party composition it will be(doubly so if it's actually generated upon the entry of the inn preventing the player from reloading and preparing for it), that seems much more exciting and interesting to me.

True, but people could still savescum until they get an enemy composition they think they can beat. Certain spells and skills will always be nastier than others, and players would savescum to get around the ones they hate the most. You'd have to be very clever to do it in such a way that actually defeats savescumming.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I honestly can't see an argument for not randomly generating enemy lineups and such within set parameters. When you know a fight is coming up at an inn, but you don't know the party composition it will be(doubly so if it's actually generated upon the entry of the inn preventing the player from reloading and preparing for it), that seems much more exciting and interesting to me.

True, but people could still savescum until they get an enemy composition they think they can beat. Certain spells and skills will always be nastier than others, and players would savescum to get around the ones they hate the most. You'd have to be very clever to do it in such a way that actually defeats savescumming.

Again, I propose the solution to savescumming is when the game detects it happens to replace all the font with pink comic sans and add ponies/sparkles to the UI.

 

[Morpheus Kitami]

I honestly can't see an argument for not randomly generating enemy lineups and such within set parameters. When you know a fight is coming up at an inn, but you don't know the party composition it will be(doubly so if it's actually generated upon the entry of the inn preventing the player from reloading and preparing for it), that seems much more exciting and interesting to me.

True, but people could still savescum until they get an enemy composition they think they can beat. Certain spells and skills will always be nastier than others, and players would savescum to get around the ones they hate the most. You'd have to be very clever to do it in such a way that actually defeats savescumming.

Again, I propose the solution to savescumming is when the game detects it happens to replace all the font with pink comic sans and add ponies/sparkles to the UI.

If you really want to fuck with that playstyle, pull an Undertale. Do some meta crap. Whenever the player reloads a save, increase a counter. Either they fight as many monsters as they saved throughout the playthrough or the final boss gets 10 HP added to his total for every reload you made. Don't even need to have the game make any acknowledgement of it. Throw in all the usual old-school inconveniences and the randomly generated set encounters and you might just have yourself a masterpiece.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

After finishing a game on ironmode.

Fucking Awesome Gamers Supreme?

 

[InSight]

But isn't the point of procedural generation in games that you're always playing a different game with different levels and encounters?
Yes, each mod is a new scenario, but so is each procedurally generated level in a roguelike. You're never going to get the same levels and encounters ever again (unless you saved the random seed and can manually type it in to get the generation you want), so it's like a different game each time. Sure, the structure is the same, but the content differs.

Procedural generation is two big words for one simple thing: the creation of data by computers. Procedural generation is usually used to create content for video games or animated movies, such as landscapes, 3D objects, character designs, animations, or non-player character dialogue. One famous example of this is the planets generated in “ No Man’s Sky.”

https://www.mit.edu/~jessicav/6.S198/Blog_Post/ProceduralGeneration.html

"In video games, it is used to automatically create large amounts of content in a game."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procedural_generation

Procedural generation is used to fill, it is a filler.

If the structure is the same, than its the same game. a House remain more the same from outward look despite how more easily its room are filled/changed with objects.

If JarlFrank truly seek a unique experience as his words/post imply, then its suggested to play games and uninstall them one the 1st death/game over and not play them again. This would make each game experience unique for it would not be replicated.
Consider it an experiment who's results would be interesting to know.

 

[JarlFrank]

If JarlFrank truly seek a unique experience as his words/post imply, then its suggested to play games and uninstall them one the 1st death/game over and not play them again.

Or I could just... you know... fucking reload and keep playing?

 

[InSight]

If JarlFrank truly seek a unique experience as his words/post imply, then its suggested to play games and uninstall them one the 1st death/game over and not play them again.

Or I could just... you know... fucking reload and keep playing?

Then the unique experience is lessened/tarnished/gone. By reloading one has removed the risk, the risk undone.

Permadeath sucks and makes you play in less fun ways, because you end up avoiding risks. And no risk, no fun.

You contradict yourself. Permadeath increase risk thus it should increase fun, one is not avoiding risk but dive's into it. For one risk's the entire playthrough (time/energy invested) with each move/progress/advancement all that can be gone with one wrong move, that is the risk and the stakes become higher.
The risk become greater and so should the fun.

The style of play that was suggested; one death/defeat/gameover only on each game. The ultimate risk as video games go. Where every move is a risk for it can be the last in that very game in the entirety of one's life(not played ever again). Lots of risk thus lots of fun, according to your post. And the entire play-style is experimental, for one has not done, has not experienced the result. A style that should fulfill the desire to experiment and provide with lots of risk which should equal lost of fun together, based on your statement.

 

[Bloodeyes]

I can't imagine investing dozens and dozens of hours in a playthrough, make it pretty deep into the game, die from something stupid and lose all that progress. Props to people who can play like that.

Been there with Kingmaker a couple times. It's fun and intense right up until that happens. It isn't worth it. One time I got killed before I even got my turn. Probably 60 hours in. Now that I've given up on that fools errand and am actually getting to see the high level game I realize I would never have been able to complete the game that way. You've got enemies that petrify you with seemingly no counter, you've got paralysis auras etc.

Ironman is awesome for a short game like Fallout. And roguelikes. To ironman a long game you'd either have to be insane or better than 99.9% of players. Why would devs spend time adding a mode for the 0.1 % when most of the time they don't even seem capable of finishing the basics of the game in the time they have?

 

[Cryomancer]

The point of ironman is not to complete the game. Is to see how far you can reach without dying.

 

[PorkaMorka]

Playing a typical Baldur's Gate 2 style RPG in ironman (or a similar mode where failure has permanent consequences) is only for those who have already memorized the game and want an additional challenge, most people shouldn't bother, I certainly won't.

However, this points to limitations of the typical Baldur's Gate 2 style RPG formula. If the fights are challenging (which is rare) then this formula only works with constant save scumming and retrying, to ensure the player eventually achieves complete success in every encounter. There is little or no support for a replacing a character who died in battle. (Also, you can kind of see why the Devs tend to make these games easier to cut down on reloads.)

This is a very different style of gaming compared to pen and paper RPGs, where characters often die permanently and are replaced and the players often partially fail but continue adventuring. There is a lack of tension and the player's gameplay decisions have no long term consequences. (Only clicking lines of dialog in a text box has consequences.)

These games can be fun, but the formula is a bit stale, strategy / tactics games that are less reliant on save scumming have some advantages; each game will play out differently with some wins, some losses and some partial victories and there will be long term consequences for your gameplay choices, like missing an opportunity to get some treasure or losing a good character and replacing him with a slightly inferior character.

 

[Utfärd]

Every game has ironman mode - you play it ironman. Simple as that.

What kind of faggot calls himself "ironman" but wants games specifically made so they're easy to waltz through without dying?

A faggot, that's who.

 

[Catacombs]

It isn't worth it.

Agreed, especially with games that require a shit ton of dialogue to sort through.

 

[toro]

A real gamer plays with a Glock near his mouse. When he dies in-game he takes a bullet to the brain. Hesitation is defeat.

 

[Catacombs]

A real gamer plays with a Glock near his mouse. When he dies in-game he takes a bullet to the brain. Hesitation is defeat.

One of the few posts here that's made me lol irl.

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

It doesn't seem like many games are designed for iron mode runs.

 

[Daemongar]

I'm sure if developers did polls of what players want in games, Ironman mode would come in at a solid 20th, well behind level scaled enemies, battle shouts, and gay romance. Fallout NV has an "ironman" mode (which is pretty weak) and very few have the achievement, even though its Ironman is a minor inconvenience.

For my part, I don't bother with Ironman mode unless it leads to an interesting experience. Ironman mode is the same as the regular game, just with permadeath. There has to be something more there.

 

[Moaning_Clock]

Completionists are the reason Ironman Mode doesn't exist in 100+ hour RPGs. There's a certain group of people who would go totally bananas and be dissatisfied.
For shorter games though, it's a great option and very easy to implement.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Isn't speedrunning generally ironman mode? You die and time is wasted. If you can't beat the record or your own record then you're borked. Death is a huge issue esp if rules of speedrun is NO DEATHS!

 

[Moaning_Clock]

You die and time is wasted.

Not always - there are several instances were dying actually can save time - depends on the game though. In Rayman 2 was a skip were you needed to die to save at least 30 seconds or more. That's at least the first example I could think of.

 

[JarlFrank]

Completionists are the reason Ironman Mode doesn't exist in 100+ hour RPGs. There's a certain group of people who would go totally bananas and be dissatisfied.

I mean yes.

The game has a lot of content. I enjoy exploring new content. I don't want the game to erase my progress because I dared to explore its more dangerous content and died.

 

[Harthwain]

I mean yes.

The game has a lot of content. I enjoy exploring new content. I don't want the game to erase my progress because I dared to explore its more dangerous content and died.

There are always roguelites if you don't like all of your progress erased. Or games that offer more than 1 life/chance.

 

[JarlFrank]

I mean yes.

The game has a lot of content. I enjoy exploring new content. I don't want the game to erase my progress because I dared to explore its more dangerous content and died.

There are always roguelites if you don't like all of your progress erased. Or games that offer more than 1 life/chance.

Or games with handcrafted content that allow you to save and reload in case of death.

You know... normal games without this silly permadeath thing that has become a trend for some reason, alongside shitty procedural generation.