Why so few games with permadeath/ironman/hardcore modes?

[Dorateen]

 

[Pink Eye]

Dungeon Rats has Iron Man Mode, but do be forewarned, It's pretty challenging!

 

[Nifft Batuff]

I love the persistence of the game world, when everything you have done is still present (e.g. objects you dropped, enemies you dispatched, choices you made, etc.). You find this persistence in games such as Ultima Underworld, System Shock, Dungeon Master. Or in CRPGs like Fallout 1&2 and UnderRail. This is what renders a game immersive, non-linear and interesting in my opinion.

Repetition, respawn (both of the player and of object/enemies), games designed as a sequence of obstacles/battles staged between checkpoints/save-points, and in general the volatility of the game state, is what makes the game linear and breaks my interest.

Too bad that when permadeath is forced by design, it is usually associated with the latter kind of games.

 

[Harthwain]

Too bad that when permadeath is forced by design, it is usually associated with the latter kind of games.

What are you talking about? In most roguelikes as long as you stay alive the world stays the way it is. Including killed enemies. The reconfiguration happens only after your death.

 

[JarlFrank]

The point is, it is always the same encounter and location with same loot and same everything else. It is always the same, for the 1st time and for the 5th time. Otoh thanks to randomness you can be surprised.

I dunno, most procedural generation is so formulaic and boring that all the randomly generated levels and encounters feel the same even though they are not.
I played many roguelikes over the years, and by this point they just melt together in my mind because they all play so similar. And even though they can surprise you, even the most surprising random encounter in a roguelike isn't half as memorable as a well-designed handmade encounter.

The best solution: offer mod tools so the players can keep providing new content after you played through the game

Forgotten Realms Unlimited Adventures, Elder Scrolls series, Gothic 2, Neverwinter Nights, the upcoming Knights of the Chalice 2, Swords of Exile and Swords of Avernum.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

Too bad that when permadeath is forced by design, it is usually associated with the latter kind of games.

What are you talking about? In most roguelikes as long as you stay alive the world stays the way it is. Including killed enemies. The reconfiguration happens only after your death.

It is not true. Usually when you change level you cannot go back, and if you can go back, the level has been regenerated.

Even in modern roguelikes (like Hades, or Loop Hero) where there is some kind of persistence between the different loops (e.g. you keep your stats/spells/equipments), in order to not frustrate you too much for starting rigorously from zero, each loop is basically a reset of the game world.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

only reason you guys like "well-designed handmade encounters" is because you quicksave every 5 seconds and reload the moment something bad happens
maybe you should just play roguelikes with cheats on, you'd probably like them just the same then

 

[Nifft Batuff]

only reason you guys like "well-designed handmade encounters" is because you quicksave every 5 seconds and reload the moment something bad happens
maybe you should just play roguelikes with cheats on, you'd probably like them just the same then

It is so that you play non-roguelikes? By forcing repetition by reloading every encounter you don't like? Ok, but it is not an interesting or fun way to play.

 

[Harthwain]

It is not true. Usually when you change level you cannot go back, and if you can go back, the level has been regenerated.

This is true for games that have indvidual levels in which you can't go back. For other games there are no individual levels and you can go back, although there seldom is a reason to backtrack, because enemies and loot do not respawn. Nosferatu: The Wrath of Malachi comes to mind as one such example.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

It is not true. Usually when you change level you cannot go back, and if you can go back, the level has been regenerated.

This is true for games that have indvidual levels in which you can't go back. For other games there are no individual levels and you can go back, although there seldom is a reason to backtrack, because enemies and loot do not respawn. Nosferatu: The Wrath of Malachi comes to mind as one such example.

Ok, I did not know this game.

 

[dacencora]

The point is, it is always the same encounter and location with same loot and same everything else. It is always the same, for the 1st time and for the 5th time. Otoh thanks to randomness you can be surprised.

I dunno, most procedural generation is so formulaic and boring that all the randomly generated levels and encounters feel the same even though they are not.
I played many roguelikes over the years, and by this point they just melt together in my mind because they all play so similar. And even though they can surprise you, even the most surprising random encounter in a roguelike isn't half as memorable as a well-designed handmade encounter.

The best solution: offer mod tools so the players can keep providing new content after you played through the game

Forgotten Realms Unlimited Adventures, Elder Scrolls series, Gothic 2, Neverwinter Nights, the upcoming Knights of the Chalice 2, Swords of Exile and Swords of Avernum.

Definitely agree with most of your point, but roguelikes can keep things very interesting.

The best thing for most games is to have a diverse bestiary, even hand-designed encounters can get boring if you just keep fighting the same exact enemy over and over. Neverwinter Nights OC in particular comes to mind, which is a shame because D&D sports a very good bestiary.

One of my favorite "roguelikes" (I know it doesn't count as a full-on RL) is Cadence of Hyrule because, as opposed to some roguelikes I have played, the enemies are very diverse and each type of monster moves very differently. The level layouts still feel samey in the proc-gen dungeons, but there are enough differences in enemy tactics that it always feels fresh.

 

[Harthwain]

Ok, I did not know this game.

I highly recommend it. It's dirt-cheap on Steam at the moment:

 

[Nifft Batuff]

Ok, I did not know this game.

I highly recommend it. It's dirt-cheap on Steam at the moment:

Thanks, I am a sucker for horror games.

By the way... in these days I was playing an horror game with permadeath: Song of Horror. It is not a roguelike though, and with a bit of meta-knowledge it is easy to avoid lethal situations. I has also a save everywhere (on exit) feature. So I can play it in short or long segments at my leisure.

The gimmick is that in the playthrough you have a fixed set of different characters (with different stats) an you can play with one at a time. If one of them is killed, he/she is gone for good. However you can still play with another character of the group and collect all your equipment in the place where he/she died. The state of the "world" is persistent (unlocked doors remains unlocked, etc.). If all your group is killed you have to restart from zero.

-----

Another roguelike with persistent generated world is obviously Dwarf Fortress, but as far as I know I consider DF as an outlier.

 

[Harthwain]

The gimmick is that in the playthrough you have a fixed set of different characters (with different stats) an you can play with one at a time. If one of them is killed, he/she is gone for good. However you can collect all your equipment with a subsequent character and the state of the "world" is persistent (unlocked doors remains unlocked, etc.). If all your group is killed you have to restart from zero.

This is certainly an interesting way to do it. I am not a fan of straight horrors though. I like Nosferatu, because I like roguelikes and it was a bonus in a magazine I got once so I simply tried it out and ended up liking it. It has an amazing atmosphere (sound, visuals and art direction in general) and good roguelike features (randomized loot, NPCs' locations, the castle layout). This game was one of a few reasons why I started liking gothic as a theme.

 

[JarlFrank]

only reason you guys like "well-designed handmade encounters" is because you quicksave every 5 seconds and reload the moment something bad happens
maybe you should just play roguelikes with cheats on, you'd probably like them just the same then

No I actually like well-designed encounters that challenge my party.

Play KotC2 and then come back here, scrub.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

only reason you guys like "well-designed handmade encounters" is because you quicksave every 5 seconds and reload the moment something bad happens
maybe you should just play roguelikes with cheats on, you'd probably like them just the same then

No I actually like well-designed encounters that challenge my party.

Play KotC2 and then come back here, scrub.

Live stream you beating kotc2 without abusing cheats, scrub.

 

[RobotSquirrel]

Basically I want this

as a game mechanic.
And games explicitly don't design their games this way because they're all designed around savescumming.

I had to do a doubletake when I read Bethesda. How the mighty have fallen.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

Basically I want this

as a game mechanic.
And games explicitly don't design their games this way because they're all designed around savescumming.

I had to do a doubletake when I read Bethesda. How the mighty have fallen.

I don't understand. Was Daggerfall designed around savescumming?

 

[laclongquan]

Also what source? I mean, an article in game journals would say it all about its credibility.

We are not what we were thirty years ago when an article in Computer World magazine guarantee (or so we thought) its trust-worthiness.

 

[buffalo bill]

The point is, it is always the same encounter and location with same loot and same everything else. It is always the same, for the 1st time and for the 5th time. Otoh thanks to randomness you can be surprised.

I played many roguelikes over the years

Have you played Infra Arcana or DoomRL? I'd put their procedurally generated levels up against just about any handcrafted levels from a different game. I think maybe you just haven't played the best roguelikes.

 

[dacencora]

DoomRL is god-tier.

 

[Serus]

The point is, it is always the same encounter and location with same loot and same everything else. It is always the same, for the 1st time and for the 5th time. Otoh thanks to randomness you can be surprised.

I dunno, most procedural generation is so formulaic and boring that all the randomly generated levels and encounters feel the same even though they are not.
I played many roguelikes over the years, and by this point they just melt together in my mind because they all play so similar. And even though they can surprise you, even the most surprising random encounter in a roguelike isn't half as memorable as a well-designed handmade encounter.

The best solution: offer mod tools so the players can keep providing new content after you played through the game

Forgotten Realms Unlimited Adventures, Elder Scrolls series, Gothic 2, Neverwinter Nights, the upcoming Knights of the Chalice 2, Swords of Exile and Swords of Avernum.

Sure. But imo you are making a strawman again. No one claims differently. However the problem is, memorable is a great quality the first time you play it but if you want to replay it, after the first time(s), it becomes well memorised instead of memorable. In addition nothing prevents developers from making variations of a memorable encounters - as I described in the BG2 example. Keep the unique and memorable quality, make relatively small variations that keeps it fresh AND memorable each time you play. Randomised does not always mean 100% procedural. It seems that this is another (of your) false assumptions. Of curse nothing prevents it except the fact that developers make crpgs to be played once and even when not, they don't care or don't want to spend resources on replayability.

As to feeling the same. I'm not sure. I still remember some of the random encounters from Battle Brothers even after a long time. However the point of procedural generation is not to be memorable but to be different and surprising each time. You are like a person who wants a racing car and buys a bus instead. No point of comparing acceleration and the amount of seats in the two cars.

As to mod tools. Sure, I very much for it and i also hope for kotc2. I really hope for many different scenarios. However it is not very relevant to the subject at hand. Each mod is a new scenario or game. It won't help replaying a game or scenario that is already made and it won't help with permadeath games.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I honestly can't see an argument for not randomly generating enemy lineups and such within set parameters. When you know a fight is coming up at an inn, but you don't know the party composition it will be(doubly so if it's actually generated upon the entry of the inn preventing the player from reloading and preparing for it), that seems much more exciting and interesting to me.

Of course, I wouldn't expect it to generate an enemy party of 6 clerics or something(as stated above, "within set parameters"), but a reasonable party with reasonably selected skills, feats, spells, talents, and such.
Most games could benefit from this in encounter design to keep it interesting.

One of the more interesting aspects of roguelikes is being prepared for any scenario and reacting properly to whatever the game throws at you. I don't see why this couldn't be adapted to cRPGs.

 

[Serus]

The point is, it is always the same encounter and location with same loot and same everything else. It is always the same, for the 1st time and for the 5th time. Otoh thanks to randomness you can be surprised.

I played many roguelikes over the years

Have you played Infra Arcana or DoomRL? I'd put their procedurally generated levels up against just about any handcrafted levels from a different game. I think maybe you just haven't played the best roguelikes.

However in DoomRL there are hand crafted levels too and even some hand crafted encounters. Another game where procedural generation and static elements are mixed.
I'd say, we need the best of both worlds. I always said that.

It is not true. Usually when you change level you cannot go back, and if you can go back, the level has been regenerated.

This is true for games that have indvidual levels in which you can't go back. For other games there are no individual levels and you can go back, although there seldom is a reason to backtrack, because enemies and loot do not respawn. Nosferatu: The Wrath of Malachi comes to mind as one such example.

Ok, I did not know this game.

Catacysm DDA is another. Though this is more of a rogulike/open world hybrid with even traditional crpg elements being added lately.

 

[buffalo bill]

in DoomRL there are hand crafted levels too and even some hand crafted encounters. Another game where procedural generation and static elements are mixed.
I'd say, we need the best of both worlds. I always said that.

I was just thinking of the proc gen levels. Imo, the non-proc gen levels are actually quite a bit more boring than the proc gen ones, since you can plan for them.