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Why did Real Time Strategy genre die out?

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217
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Also: Starcraft 1+Broodwar, Red Alert 2, and Homeworld all have better stories than most RPGs I've play.
This is an important aspect. Rts was popular because it was a cpu low intensive genre that could act as a vehilce for narratives. The story was always strong in Warcraft 2 & Starcraft. As well in Homeworld even thou they are more heavier to run. 3d action game took over as the main narrative vehicle then it got passed on to openworld action "rpgs". And now with BG3 and DE it's coming to more focused rpgs again.
Yes, this is a dumb argument because they don't have to be made for consoles.

Yes they do. That's the whole point of "multiplatform" developement.

Name one big game released after the shit box that wasn't developed and released simultaneously for console and PC.
Supreme Commander ( the xbox release was half a year later), Wargame: European Escalation with succesors, WARNO, Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War I & II, Ground Control II: Operation Exodus, World in Conflict, Rome: Total War and every release sense, Blitzkrieg, Men of War, Assault Squad.
 

RaggleFraggle

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Also: Starcraft 1+Broodwar, Red Alert 2, and Homeworld all have better stories than most RPGs I've play.
This is an important aspect. Rts was popular because it was a cpu low intensive genre that could act as a vehilce for narratives. The story was always strong in Warcraft 2 & Starcraft. As well in Homeworld even thou they are more heavier to run. 3d action game took over as the main narrative vehicle then it got passed on to openworld action "rpgs". And now with BG3 and DE it's coming to more focused rpgs again.
Yes, this is a dumb argument because they don't have to be made for consoles.

Yes they do. That's the whole point of "multiplatform" developement.

Name one big game released after the shit box that wasn't developed and released simultaneously for console and PC.
Supreme Commander ( the xbox release was half a year later), Wargame: European Escalation with succesors, WARNO, Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War I & II, Ground Control II: Operation Exodus, World in Conflict, Rome: Total War and every release sense, Blitzkrieg, Men of War, Assault Squad.
What? The stories in RTS have generally been mediocre at best. A strong story in Warcraft 2? When was the last time you played that? That “story” consists entirely of a briefing screen expositing at you. Blizzard stories after WC2 are probably the worst in the genre, since they focus on superficial emotional suckerpunches for important scenes while completely ignoring things like basic logical consistency and basically competent worldbuilding.
 

Beans00

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Because most of those games are mid and outright shit.

There were a lot of mid and shit RTS games back in the day as well. We ignored most of those too.

What deflated the momentum for me was SC2. It already felt the genre was on its eay out even before that, but we all waited for Blizzard next release to sort of resurrect the hype. But Starcraft 2 was so shit in so many respects, not to mention all the shenanigans they pulled with Battle.net 2.0, that for me it was basically the final nail in the coffin.

With Blizzard gone to shit, and Westwood getting killed off because of EA's utter incompetence and greed, the two major players of the genre were gone, so what was left?


You just sucked at SC2, it wasn't that bad of an rts.


If you think sc2 was bad, you probably played like 4 rts games lol.

Crybaby
 

Inec0rn

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I would agree with RaggleFraggle but I would say up to Warcraft 3, everything they did after that stage was flat uncreative re-cycled content. SC2 effectively copy and pasted pretty much of the entire storyline of Broodwar (I didn't mind part 1 and 2 but it's annoying when companies play it that safe). Then the new parts they added like that 4th race and pretty much all of Legacy of the Void were shockingly bad. Once so much money is on the line no-one wants to take risks but to me it pretty much always results in mediocrity and tarnishes the IP.

Given the budgets involved in AAA today, that copy paste / fanfic type creativity is the new norm.
 

mediocrepoet

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Because most of those games are mid and outright shit.

There were a lot of mid and shit RTS games back in the day as well. We ignored most of those too.

What deflated the momentum for me was SC2. It already felt the genre was on its eay out even before that, but we all waited for Blizzard next release to sort of resurrect the hype. But Starcraft 2 was so shit in so many respects, not to mention all the shenanigans they pulled with Battle.net 2.0, that for me it was basically the final nail in the coffin.

With Blizzard gone to shit, and Westwood getting killed off because of EA's utter incompetence and greed, the two major players of the genre were gone, so what was left?


You just sucked at SC2, it wasn't that bad of an rts.


If you think sc2 was bad, you probably played like 4 rts games lol.

Crybaby

There's no need to keep playing this crap. The genre peaked with Warcraft: Orcs vs Humans. Everything else is straight trash.
 

Dr1f7

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there are a few problems with sc2:

  1. Protoss
  2. being able to bind your entire army to one control group
  3. post HoTS swarm host nerf
 

Beans00

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I had my problems with sc2, but it was the best RTS since like 2002 or 2003.

sup com sucked
cnc3 and ra3 were super trash
maelstrom? lol
the later stronghold games were terrible
aoe 3 was complete shit
empire earth 2/3 were complete shit
earth 2160, lol
people can cope but the COH games suck ass
empire at war was mid tier at best

probably more I'm forgetting

SC2 was amazing compared to most of those titles. I played a lot of RTS games, they were my 2nd favorite genre.

I never played the battle for middle earth games.
 

Ol' Willy

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Supreme Commander ( the xbox release was half a year later), Wargame: European Escalation with succesors, WARNO, Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War I & II, Ground Control II: Operation Exodus, World in Conflict, Rome: Total War and every release sense, Blitzkrieg, Men of War, Assault Squad.
Most of these are wargames or RTTs, not really an RTS in a classic meaning of the term
 

RaggleFraggle

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I would agree with RaggleFraggle but I would say up to Warcraft 3, everything they did after that stage was flat uncreative re-cycled content. SC2 effectively copy and pasted pretty much of the entire storyline of Broodwar (I didn't mind part 1 and 2 but it's annoying when companies play it that safe). Then the new parts they added like that 4th race and pretty much all of Legacy of the Void were shockingly bad. Once so much money is on the line no-one wants to take risks but to me it pretty much always results in mediocrity and tarnishes the IP.

Given the budgets involved in AAA today, that copy paste / fanfic type creativity is the new norm.
It's especially poor because the source material wasn't particularly good. Chris Metzen is a decent enough artist, but has zero skill at storytelling. It's the art, music and voice acting that carries the story. SC1 is a triumph of style over substance. Obviously it's a terrible idea to rehash that. Even morons like D&B were able to adapt strong source material like Game of Thrones, but letting morons adapt bad source material will obviously go poorly. We see that right now with awful stories like Stormgate. SC1 and WC3 impressed us when we were in our tweens and that's left a nostalgic impression on us, but Stormgate lacks any nostalgic connection so our adult brains easily pick out the flaws.

However, that's not really saying much about the genre as a whole. How many of you can remember any individual story beats for the entire genre outside of Mengsk betraying Raynor or Arthas turning evil over two decades ago? If you're lucky you can remember Tim Curry's "space!" meme, but the genre as a whole in lacking in memorable moments, much less good storytelling.
 

Ol' Willy

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Ahh, Empire at War was the first game I had on my own PC. Well, there also was a Requital/Volkodav, but I played it for like 10 minutes and never remembered about it since, so that's that. It was a pirate CD with Space Addon (pre FoC) already installed, so it had way more ships than original game.

Can't say anything bad about it, although the space battles are two dimensional just like sea battles, the 3D aspect of space was totally unused, which is a shame
 

ghardy

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Would you say it's the case that the "classic RTS", like the "classic FPS", was inextricably a product of its time in the 1990s? And that attempts to recreate the kind are inevitably tinged with affectation.

In other words, it's chasing a chimera.
 

Lyric Suite

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Because most of those games are mid and outright shit.

There were a lot of mid and shit RTS games back in the day as well. We ignored most of those too.

What deflated the momentum for me was SC2. It already felt the genre was on its eay out even before that, but we all waited for Blizzard next release to sort of resurrect the hype. But Starcraft 2 was so shit in so many respects, not to mention all the shenanigans they pulled with Battle.net 2.0, that for me it was basically the final nail in the coffin.

With Blizzard gone to shit, and Westwood getting killed off because of EA's utter incompetence and greed, the two major players of the genre were gone, so what was left?


You just sucked at SC2, it wasn't that bad of an rts.


If you think sc2 was bad, you probably played like 4 rts games lol.

Crybaby

Ok, let's start with Wings of Liberty, the only one i played (from what i heard the expansions were even worse lmao).

Story was shit. Like, utter, complete, irredeemable trash. It's so bad Bethesda games look good by comparison.

Design wise, it was incredibly derivative of the first game. Like, the game was basically a complete rehash of the first, except worse. Units they carried over from the first were not as good, not as cool visually and with worse sounds (Zerg in particular were atrocious, complete and total downgrade).

Meanwhile new units just sucked and were utterly inferior to the ones they left out.

Next, music sucked. Terran was ok, rest was boring and nondescript. Original was way better.

Only positive were a couple of quality of life features and the campaign wasn't bad if you ignored the story, but that wasn't really an option now, wasn't it.

Now let's talk about Battle.net 0.2. Complete and total downgrade, missing features that were there when Battle.net 1 launched for fuck's sake. This for me was the real absurdity. Imagine coming back after 10 years with something that felt like a regression of the very first release. How can you fuck something this badly? They literally had to do nothing and it would have been a million times better.

Lastly, multiplayer balance was fucked because of Kim what's his face and his unwillingness to admin when he was fucking wrong.

The only thing the multiplayer has going for it is the engine, and even that was released in a broken state.

So, as you can see, the game was hardly the mark of quality. Between SC2, Diablo 3 and Cataclysm it was obvious that Blizzard was no longer the same company.
 

Lyric Suite

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Supreme Commander ( the xbox release was half a year later), Wargame: European Escalation with succesors, WARNO, Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War I & II, Ground Control II: Operation Exodus, World in Conflict, Rome: Total War and every release sense, Blitzkrieg, Men of War, Assault Squad.
Most of these are wargames or RTTs, not really an RTS in a classic meaning of the term

Most of those are also super old. Supreme Commander predates SC2, as do most of the ones in that list i recognize.

The you got shit like Total War which has become slop after Rome.
 

RaggleFraggle

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Story was shit. Like, utter, complete, irredeemable trash. It's so bad Bethesda games look good by comparison.
Here's a recap for anyone who isn't aware:

Space cowboy is all sad and mopey because his girlfriend is an evil space succubus. She is an evil space succubus because they were betrayed by the evil emperor. This occurred offscreen, in the past, for reasons unexplained. Space cowboy's cool ex-boyfriend shows up out of the blue after many years apart and magically convinces Space cowboy to stop being depressed and to fight the evil empire. Space cowboy inexplicably gets sidetracked chasing magic prophecy breadcrumbs. After combining the breadcrumbs like power rangers zords, the combined zord turns his girlfriend human again using unexplained space magic despite being a bazillion years out of date. Space cowboy kills his ex-boyfriend for contrived reasons, even though ex-boyfriend is the single most interesting character in the story. Ex-boyfriend gets brought back to life in the sequels because even the writers realized they fucked up by killing him off. There's some aliens too but they're not important except as obstacles during missions; you could probably remove them entirely and lose nothing of value. The aliens exterminated something like 90% of the human population just a few years prior, but nobody cares and there's zero evidence that even happened if the story didn't tell us.

I'm not even describing the story uncharitably. That's a more or less accurate summary of the story.

I don't understand how a company that spend something on the order of US$100 million could fuck up their story that badly. This story is a complete fucking mess that tries to do way too much in way too small a space. Ditch the evil empire, ditch the space cowboy, ditch the space succubus, and make the story about the ex-boyfriend fighting off aliens trying to destroy Earth. Don't overcomplicate it.
 

Beans00

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Ok, let's start with Wings of Liberty, the only one i played (from what i heard the expansions were even worse lmao).

I also only played WoL, I was tired of the game by the time HOTS came out.

I never played diablo 3 so I don't care.

I never played WoW so I also don't care.



So this next part is really simple. Using 2003 as an arbitrary cut off. Because we had aom, wc3 and cnc generals in 2002 with expansions in 2003. All 3 are fun but flawed.


Name 3 rts from 2004-2010 that are better than SC2. Unless you want to cry instead.
 

Lyric Suite

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Aren't you sort of proving my point?

I already said the genre was in a rut. SC2 was supposed to be the next big thing, the one that would have turned the trend around.

Then it comes out and it's obvious Blizzard was no longer the same company. That's what sealed the deal for me.
 

vota DC

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Also: Starcraft 1+Broodwar, Red Alert 2, and Homeworld all have better stories than most RPGs I've play.
This is an important aspect. Rts was popular because it was a cpu low intensive genre that could act as a vehilce for narratives. The story was always strong in Warcraft 2 & Starcraft. As well in Homeworld even thou they are more heavier to run. 3d action game took over as the main narrative vehicle then it got passed on to openworld action "rpgs". And now with BG3 and DE it's coming to more focused rpgs again.
Yes, this is a dumb argument because they don't have to be made for consoles.

Yes they do. That's the whole point of "multiplatform" developement.

Name one big game released after the shit box that wasn't developed and released simultaneously for console and PC.
Supreme Commander ( the xbox release was half a year later), Wargame: European Escalation with succesors, WARNO, Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War I & II, Ground Control II: Operation Exodus, World in Conflict, Rome: Total War and every release sense, Blitzkrieg, Men of War, Assault Squad.
What? The stories in RTS have generally been mediocre at best. A strong story in Warcraft 2? When was the last time you played that? That “story” consists entirely of a briefing screen expositing at you. Blizzard stories after WC2 are probably the worst in the genre, since they focus on superficial emotional suckerpunches for important scenes while completely ignoring things like basic logical consistency and basically competent worldbuilding.
With Starcraft they begin to make "each campaign is linked and nobody has a total victory with the destruction of the other factions". In older rts they did a campaign that progress until the enemy is destroyed and the capital razed or last territory captured, but then they get upset when they choose a canon ending when they develop a sequel.
Warcraft 1 hasn't a better style than 2? In 2 you have the book and the battles are chapters, in 1 you get the briefing by your bosses. Also in Warcraft 1 in the orc campaign you can betray the big boss to take the power that while has no effect is a cool concept. Dune 2 you had to choose the map, wasn't possible in any warcraft.
Emperor Battle for Dune had a super cheesy story (and early 3d engine and bad design for some units) but still allowed to recruit mutually exclusive subfaction. Harkonne could even decide their baron. The ending battle was always the same but was cool. Only Age of Wonders did better but it wasn't a rts.

Also did Starcraft started the trend or was Dark Reign? I remember that Dark Reign allowed to choose a faction but despite your results the winner and the historical outcome of the battle was already chosen.
 

anvi

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Part of me thinks mankind doesn't deserve any RTS after allowing Westwood to die. We are like people yelling at corn and wheat for not growing after we saw EA come in and napalm the land.
 
Last edited:

RaggleFraggle

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With Starcraft they begin to make "each campaign is linked and nobody has a total victory with the destruction of the other factions". In older rts they did a campaign that progress until the enemy is destroyed and the capital razed or last territory captured, but then they get upset when they choose a canon ending when they develop a sequel.
Yes, and? SC1 ends with everyone destroyed, and BW ends with the zerg killing everyone else, so it's a distinction without a difference. This isn't progress, this is just a creative decision and it's hardly the only one. Arguably, it's a worse one.

Another option is for the stories to occur concurrently (at the same time), as in Tiberian Sun Firestorm and Tiberium Wars.

The problem with having them occur sequentially, as in Blizz campaigns, is that it weakens the individual stories by forcing them to continue the previous story rather than telling their own that happens to tie in with the others. In SC1, the alien campaigns suffered hugely because they were reduced to continuations of the terran story. They couldn't stand on their own and didn't really make sense because key details were omitted and you never saw their perspective during previous campaigns.

Clearly, having the campaigns occur concurrently and allowing you to play them in any order is the better option.

Really, what do you expect them to do?

Warcraft 1 hasn't a better style than 2? In 2 you have the book and the battles are chapters, in 1 you get the briefing by your bosses. Also in Warcraft 1 in the orc campaign you can betray the big boss to take the power that while has no effect is a cool concept. Dune 2 you had to choose the map, wasn't possible in any warcraft.
This is an LP of the WC2 campaign:

The briefings are a disembodied voice telling you what to do. It is crude and rudimentary compared even to games that came out around the same time, like Command & Conquer's FMV briefings.

Emperor Battle for Dune had a super cheesy story (and early 3d engine and bad design for some units) but still allowed to recruit mutually exclusive subfaction. Harkonne could even decide their baron. The ending battle was always the same but was cool. Only Age of Wonders did better but it wasn't a rts.
Ok? What is your point here? I am a Westwood fan and I have a soft spot for it, but I'll be the first to admit that nobody remembers that game outside of diehard Westwood fans. The story isn't actively nonsensical like Blizz stories are, but clearly it never got very popular. It doesn't even have a lore explained video anywhere on youtube. The mechanics are more complex than many other games at the time, sure, but since then other games used those mechanics and improved upon them. For example, Dawn of War Dark Crusade had more complex metamap mechanics, with territories granting distinct benefits.

Also did Starcraft started the trend or was Dark Reign? I remember that Dark Reign allowed to choose a faction but despite your results the winner and the historical outcome of the battle was already chosen.
In retrospect that comes across as stupid and insulting. "Oh, you like this faction? Fuck you, they got obliterated." It's one the reasons why I find Blizz stories so terrible. You invest in their struggles, then the writer arbitrarily kills them off for the sake of cheap drama, over and over again. Meanwhile, stupid annoying characters you want to see die horribly get favored by the writer.

In any case, storytelling and world building has never been a strong suit in RTS. The most memorable moments are Mengsk betraying Raynor and Arthas joining the dark side, which happened over two decades ago. Nobody remembers the other stories, even in the same game as those moments, and the storytelling and world building is nothing to write home about.

I guess the 40k games have deep lore worth investing in, but that's only because those games are spin-offs of a tabletop wargame that has been going strong for three decades and received hundreds of books. Even then, it still suffers from problems like the Ultrasmurfs and Robot Girlyman.
 
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Supreme Commander ( the xbox release was half a year later), Wargame: European Escalation with succesors, WARNO, Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War I & II, Ground Control II: Operation Exodus, World in Conflict, Rome: Total War and every release sense, Blitzkrieg, Men of War, Assault Squad.
Most of these are wargames or RTTs, not really an RTS in a classic meaning of the term
Most of them. Not all. And if you had bothered to read I made a previous post in this thread explaining my views on rts vs rtt. tl;dr rts exist in an abstract almost board game level of abstraction for strategy with it's silly building and individual units size dimensions and the assembly line production of organic solders one at a time from barracs vs rtt that tries to bring a degree of realism and believability into what you are seeing. AKA rts were always doomed. They existed because of very high production values from Blizzard games and other good games like TA, or, for the time, novel gameplay features and relatively strong style over substance because of the production values.
Supreme Commander ( the xbox release was half a year later), Wargame: European Escalation with succesors, WARNO, Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War I & II, Ground Control II: Operation Exodus, World in Conflict, Rome: Total War and every release sense, Blitzkrieg, Men of War, Assault Squad.
Most of these are wargames or RTTs, not really an RTS in a classic meaning of the term

Most of those are also super old. Supreme Commander predates SC2, as do most of the ones in that list i recognize.

The you got shit like Total War which has become slop after Rome.
You slimy fuck. The king of strawman arguments. How is it that you ask me to name games that came out after xbox was released "Name one big game released after the shit box that wasn't developed and released simultaneously for console and PC." and when I do you turn around 180 degrees and says that the games I name are "super old" and move the goalpost by saying that they are not released after SC2. Not only do you have seriously issues with reading comprehension, evidently after reading through the Elden ring thread, but on top of that you are squirming and on the fly create more strawman arguments and again move the goal post. And you don't even have the decency to respond directly to my post, just ignore it like you do. You truly are just an old grumpy sad cunt.
 

Beans00

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Aren't you sort of proving my point?

I already said the genre was in a rut. SC2 was supposed to be the next big thing, the one that would have turned the trend around.

Then it comes out and it's obvious Blizzard was no longer the same company. That's what sealed the deal for me.
I'm actually genuinely confused what you're crying about at this point lol.
 

Lyric Suite

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You slimy fuck. The king of strawman arguments. How is it that you ask me to name games that came out after xbox was released "Name one big game released after the shit box that wasn't developed and released simultaneously for console and PC." and when I do you turn around 180 degrees and says that the games I name are "super old" and move the goalpost by saying that they are not released after SC2. Not only do you have seriously issues with reading comprehension, evidently after reading through the Elden ring thread, but on top of that you are squirming and on the fly create more strawman arguments and again move the goal post. And you don't even have the decency to respond directly to my post, just ignore it like you do. You truly are just an old grumpy sad cunt.

Obviously the change wasn't gonna happen like the next day the fag box was released.

The industry continued as it was for a while, but things begun to erode more and more until by the mid-2000s the decline and consolitis became terminal.

One company that got on board with the decline really quickly was Bioware. KOTOR was released in 2003 and that game was already ruined by consolization. It slowly happened to everybody.

By the time Supreme Commander was released the transformation was basically complete. This was the same year Bioshock was released after all.
 

Lyric Suite

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Aren't you sort of proving my point?

I already said the genre was in a rut. SC2 was supposed to be the next big thing, the one that would have turned the trend around.

Then it comes out and it's obvious Blizzard was no longer the same company. That's what sealed the deal for me.
I'm actually genuinely confused what you're crying about at this point lol.

The death of the RTS genre.
 

Damned Registrations

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More like the death of blizzard, and you're too much of a fanboy to try anything else.
 

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