What do you think about AoD?

[Infinitron]

TalesfromtheCrypt
You nailed it.

What Bioware did with romance and character drama, AOD does with EXTREEM C&C. The cherry has taken over the ice cream.

 

[hiver]

Yeah, he nailed what others like him have been saying all along and that is that they want to have it all in single playthrough.

Youre the part of the market that got tapped into by mainstream and thats why you got all those "great games" and design direction RPGs went into.

 

[RK47]

Yeah, Skyrim is great, man.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

Hiver, except I'm a fan of branching and having multiple paths trough a game, I just don't think that having a path where the only thing you do is clicking trough dialogue options without doing anything else is particulary exciting.
And don't ever accuse me of being part "the mainstream market" again you fucking moron, unlike a large part of the Codex I haven't spent a single dollar in years on shit like Dragon Age, Diablo 3, Mass Effect or any other popamole bullshit.

Also, could you name those different games that offer exclusive content for different character archetypes and don't allow you to see everything in a single playtrough? I'd love to play them.
It sure as hell wasn't Fallout, Arcanum or Planescape. Because if you created a fighter/diplomat hybrid in those games you could potentially see 95 percent of the content these games had to offer. Didn't make them worse games.

 

[hiver]

o_O

why didnt you say you dont understand written words right away, ...imbecile?

 

[zeitgeist]

I'm not sure anymore if it's even possible to make a good game using dialogue skills and non-violent gameplay as a core design element. See, on the codex you could always read that Fallout provided three different character types, fighter, diplomat, thief - and each of those would offer a unique path through the game and gameplay experience. But that's basically bullshit.

Could it maybe, possibly be that combat is one of the integral parts of a cRPG?

I feel that denying the player option to be a hybrid and forcing him to choose exclusively between being a pure fighter and a pure diplomatic character is disastrous for gameplay. Because let’s face it, clicking through dialogue options and using your [intimidate] [persuade] etc. skills JUST ISN'T THAT MUCH FUN from a gameplay perspective. Without more or less regular combat encounters to balance them out these options become boring pretty fast.

It would be pretty fun (to me at least) if there was a decent amount of options that lead to different outcomes to choose from, instead of the usual "you have the right skill(s), press the win dialogue button" or "your skill is too low, no win for you" choices.

Hiver, except I'm a fan of branching and having multiple paths trough a game, I just don't think that having a path where the only thing you do is clicking trough dialogue options without doing anything else is particulary exciting.

A "non-combat" path should ideally feature more than just dialogue options. But for that you'd have to have a more realized/fleshed out gameworld that offers other possibilities (exploration as the biggest obviously, sneaking, various interactive elements, puzzles etc).

 

[Ethan Duvall]

This should be AoD main theme:

 

[Phelot]

And so the Codex comes full circle and realizes it doesn't actually like CnC, but likes combat instead. FALLOUT IS VINDICATED! IT IS TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO AVOID COMBAT IS NOW IRRELEVANT!


BTW, nice writeup Talesfromthecrypt

 

[Captain Shrek]

And so the Codex comes full circle and realizes it doesn't actually like CnC, but likes combat instead. FALLOUT IS VINDICATED! IT IS TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO AVOID COMBAT IS NOW IRRELEVANT!


BTW, nice writeup Talesfromthecrypt

Untrue.

Read up on my CnC article: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...choice-and-consequences-in-video-games.69180/

/:selfadvertisement:

 

[Marsal]

Untrue.

Read up on my CnC article: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...choice-and-consequences-in-video-games.69180/

/:selfadvertisement:

It was kinda meh. Still better than the everyday garbage you see on Gamasutra, though. How appropriate for this thread.

 

[Phelot]

Untrue.

Read up on my CnC article: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...choice-and-consequences-in-video-games.69180/

/:selfadvertisement:

Says you, I remember the thousands of posts going on and on about the importance of CnC

 

[Captain Shrek]

Says you, I remember the thousands of posts going on and on about the importance of CnC

A lot of saysme is going to be very important later in the history of gaming /napoleon.

 

[Mangoose]

Could it maybe, possibly be that combat is one of the integral parts of a cRPG?


It would be pretty fun (to me at least) if there was a decent amount of options that lead to different outcomes to choose from, instead of the usual "you have the right skill(s), press the win dialogue button" or "your skill is too low, no win for you" choices.


A "non-combat" path should ideally feature more than just dialogue options. But for that you'd have to have a more realized/fleshed out gameworld that offers other possibilities (exploration as the biggest obviously, sneaking, various interactive elements, puzzles etc).

I somewhat disagree with your first statement but I think your second two statements are good. Combat isn't integral theoretically, but in practice it's been the main fleshed out CRPG mechanic. I think a very high non-combat game can possibly be done, but it's not something that anyone has nearly perfected yet. VD really tried to do it in AoD, and whether or not it worked in implementation, it doesn't mean it was a wrong design choice. Perhaps, yeah, it just needs to be tried again with different ideas such as your suggestions here.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Just got killed by making a bad decision. I even got a custom death message for that decision . I think it's quite nice - the combat and the text adventure stuff. Oh and the whole darker and edgier thing. I don't like the 3D thing, though. Sometimes I find having to manoeuvre the camera quite bothersome.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

A "non-combat" path should ideally feature more than just dialogue options. But for that you'd have to have a more realized/fleshed out gameworld that offers other possibilities (exploration as the biggest obviously, sneaking, various interactive elements, puzzles etc).

I agree, and judging from the demo that's AoD's biggest problem. In Fallout, even if I take the diplomatic path and try to minimize combat situations as much as possible or avoid them altogether, I still face more than just a couple of dialogue screens where I can apply my persuasion skills. I still have to explore the world, find and talk to specific people, avoid traps in dungeons, gather information, collect specific items etc. etc.
In reducing the element of world exploring (filler as VD would say) to a bare minimum and turning the non-violent path into a graphical choose-your-own-adventure AoD actually takes a huge step back from Fallout instead of advancing the concept.

 

[Bruma Hobo]

Meh, C&C is interesting when influences the gameplay... Combat is gameplay, solving puzzles is gameplay, finding secrets is gameplay... Picking dialogue options is not gameplay.

AoD's C&C is for storyfags.

 

[Johannes]

Compare to an adventure game - the challenge is to figure out what you need to use where, how to talk to someone, whatever. Not choosing between a few options given to you on a dialogue box.


If you want pure CYOA with stats, the "Choice of"-games do a pretty good job while keeping the process enjoyably simple, and also legitimately giving you real options constantly. At least the dragon one, haven't tried the others.

 

[betamin]

Meh, C&C is interesting when influences the gameplay... Combat is gameplay, solving puzzles is gameplay, finding secrets is gameplay... Picking dialogue options is not gameplay.

AoD's C&C is for storyfags.

Picking dialogue options I guess it's not gameplay since there's no difficulty, if it wasn't clear what option is the optimal one and you would have to think about it then I guess it could be gameplay... this would require a crazy good writer I guess (and it would probably degenerate into some stupid minigame so I guess I'll shut up)

 

[Castanova]

Going back to the teleportation for a second, I think all the game would need to improve it is to have an "establishing shot" every time you're teleported.

 

[Vault Dweller]

That's a very good idea, actually.

 

[Castanova]

I knew those film credits would come in handy some day.

 

[Bruma Hobo]

Picking dialogue options I guess it's not gameplay since there's no difficulty, if it wasn't clear what option is the optimal one and you would have to think about it then I guess it could be gameplay... this would require a crazy good writer I guess (and it would probably degenerate into some stupid minigame so I guess I'll shut up)

That would not help if the game requires a reload after a failed check (or start over again).

 

[l3loodAngel]

skills JUST ISN'T THAT MUCH FUN from a gameplay perspective. Without more or less regular combat encounters to balance them out these options become boring pretty fast.

It's not a design issue, but a psychological. A diplomat character has no uncertain outcomes, while a combat is almost always uncertain. Your character can get hit with crits and die, then there are RNG issues in AoD and etc.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_9251000/9251687.stm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement#Simple_schedules
Therefore dialogue wheel of Beth was not a bad decision from psychological perspective, but it was retarded from logical perspective.
Thing is that we are mammals with larger brains and nothing more.
He definitely agrees with you:

 

[hiver]

Hiver, except I'm a fan of branching and having multiple paths trough a game, I just don't think that having a path where the only thing you do is clicking trough dialogue options without doing anything else is particulary exciting.

Neither do I. Unless that dialogue provides branching and different paths through the game. Which isnt the problem of dialogue itself.

And don't ever accuse me of being part "the mainstream market" again you fucking moron, unlike a large part of the Codex I haven't spent a single dollar in years on shit like Dragon Age, Diablo 3, Mass Effect or any other popamole bullshit.

I did not accuse you of any such shit, imbecile.

Also, could you name those different games that offer exclusive content for different character archetypes and don't allow you to see everything in a single playtrough? I'd love to play them

Where did i mention "those different games" ? What the FUCK are you talking about ?

It sure as hell wasn't Fallout, Arcanum or Planescape. Because if you created a fighter/diplomat hybrid in those games you could potentially see 95 percent of the content these games had to offer. Didn't make them worse games.

Nope. And who claimed those games were like that in the first place? Who claimed it made them worse? Is your brain mulfunctioning?
Who are you talking to moron? Yourself and some hiver in your head that youre mimmicking?

Well have fun RETARD!

 

[MetalCraze]

You retards seem to confuse C&C with dialogues.

Skipping the gameplay is not C&C