Weird West: Definitive Edition - top-down immersive sim action-RPG from Arkane founder Raf Colantonio

[Roguey]

PS4 is 2013, my video card is 2016 (and as I mention can still run very good looking games in 2022 on medium/lowish settings).

Oh, when you said you had an old 480 I thought you were talking about having a 12 year nvidia card.

Yeah, that's bad.

 

[Infinitron]

https://www.gamedeveloper.com/desig...ections-from-weird-west-scribe-erin-firestine

Weird West scribe Erin Firestine on the complexities and intricacies of narrative design​

"I have to be constantly accounting for every single possibility that could occur and there's a ton of writing that goes into that."

Before Erin Firestine joined indie developer Wolfeye Studios as a narrative designer, she began her writing journey with a short story about her runaway hamster. "My mom was like, 'You should be a writer when you grow up,'" says Firestine, "and I was like, 'No, that's too much work.'"

After contributing to webcomics and graduating with a bachelor's in creative writing, Firestine still couldn't see a path to go professional. "I was sort of drifting a little bit trying to make ends meet," she says.

It wasn't until she watched an in-depth interview feature on Laurence Schick, loremaster for the Elder Scrolls series preparing for the launch of Elder Scrolls Online, that she learned that a writing career in video games was a possibility. "He posted a video talking about his job," Firestine remembers, "and how it was sort of his responsibility to make sure all of the games in the Elder Scrolls series used the right lore and was consistent in building a world that was real and living." Not long after, Firestine found a new objective to keep her motivated: "'I want that job,'" she remembers thinking, "Whatever I needed to do to get that -- I wanted it."

At the time, Firestine was working at Austin Community College and enrolled herself into the game design program, earning an associate's degree and getting to know instructor Rich Wilson, who was then Lead Level Designer at Arkane Studios, who recommended her when colleague Raphael Colontonio was looking for writers to help craft his new studio's debut title. "It feels like a series of lucky stumbles," Firestine says.

But after nearly two years of working with the development team on Weird West, Wolfeye's isometric RPG, Firestine couldn't be happier with what she's accomplished. "It's been a pretty serious ride," she says. "We've packed a ton of really good work into a very short period of time. Once we've shipped it and I've had a chance to sleep I'll be very proud of it!"

While Firestine wasn't always into video games, she enjoyed watching her little brother jump and fly his way through the Spyro series. Later on, Firestine took part in communal game nights at her college dorm, where students from multiple floors would meet in the middle common area to play mostly single-player games from such series as Resident Evil or The Legend of Zelda with accompanying commentary from friends. But she wasn't truly hooked until The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. "It was such a true and genuine world," says Firestine, "I'd never seen anything like it. I got immersed so quickly and I just wanted to live in that world as much as possible."

But currently, Final Fantasy XIV is what has truly captured Firestine's heart. "It would be pretty awesome to build a game that had that level of joy and love in it," she says. "I would really enjoy spending a really long period of time with the same set of characters and watching how their stories interact over time and how we can extrapolate new stories going forward. I think going with them on their journey would be a rewarding experience for sure."

Firestine finds inspiration in complicated characters who slowly reveal themselves to the player, specifically citing FFXIV's Thancred. "When you first meet him," she explains "he's sort of introduced as this smooth-talking, compliment-dropping womanizer but you learn relatively early on that he's got a lot of issues with inadequacy and self-esteem."

"[God of War's] Kratos is another great example," she adds. "On the surface he's just this murderous badass but the longer you spend with him the more you realize how much pain he's in and how much anger he has and how he recognizes that he's a monster and has to live with that. I love that duality!"

"That's one of the reasons Weird West has been a lot of fun to work on," says Firestine. "Practically every character in the game has something like that. Their surface appearance and the monster inside -- sometimes literally! It's been a lot of fun."

In order to make complex characters players will gravitate to, Firestine draws upon her history writing fanfiction. "Fanfic writers," she explains, "will take the tiniest detail and extrapolate it into this beautiful fractal of possibilities that the original writers might never have considered." For Firestine, it's eye-opening to be on the other side of the creator/fan relationship, experiencing the satisfaction of "putting those little details in and hoping people connect the dots."

But the nature of game development means writing and systems can rub up against each other in unexpected ways. "Our first goal is to make sure everything functions," says Firestine. "Our second goal is to make sure the player understands everything that's going on. Then after that we can worry about making it beautiful. But first you have to figure out what you're supposed to be doing next. If we can meld those two goals -- that's the dream."

For Firestine, "the ultimate moment of gameplay and narrative cohesion" comes from the original God of War released in 2005. She describes a sequence that requires the player to offer a living sacrifice to open a locked door. Said sacrifice is a caged soldier, who pleads for his life as Kratos pushes him up a ramp to the mechanical altar. Enemies then spawn into the level, halting the players' progress and forcing them to release the cage, letting it slide downward away from their goal, and fight. Upward progress is made in small chunks between battles, while the soldier's cries persist throughout.

"I realized that they're putting that murder in the player's hands," says Firestine. "You are participating in this horrible crime that Kratos is commiting. You're right there with him. It's that moment, for me, that I really understood what Kratos was going through. He had one goal, he had one possible path before him, and he was willing to do whatever it took to achieve that goal even if it meant becoming a monster."

Weird West is taking a different tack to narrative, one that provides an experience that is more emergent. "There's a lot of procedural generation going on," says Firestine, "and writing for that has been a really fascinating challenge."

"Ours is a pretty set storyline but the world itself is very open," she explains, "I have to be constantly accounting for every single possibility that could occur and there's a ton of writing that goes into that." Firestine describes her responsibilities as threefold: creating genuine reactions from NPCs that don't become repetitive, offering players' ways to role-play with a wide variety of choices that suit their character, and fleshing out the gameworld with intriguing moments that contribute to the overall narrative.

"It's much less prose writing and much more building a box of LEGOs," Firestine says, "You're not even building the things out of the LEGOs. You're just seeing what the world will do with them and what the players will do with them. We're so excited to see what happens when the player gets a hold of it because there's a lot of stuff that not even we will be able to predict."

Game development requires a significant amount of time and effort and the complicated nature of Weird West's narrative systems compound the team's growing workload. "It's tough," Firestone admits, "that's the major downside to the job I'm doing - is all the stress. It makes a difference that I'm excited about the project and I love the people I work with but if neither of those things were true or even one of them wasn't true I would be having a much harder time."

There's no shortage of games industry horror stories that detail the fallout of overworking combined with poor people management. "That's definitely something everybody looking to get into this industry needs to be aware of," says Firestine, "It's such a high-stress environment that if you end up with a team that's not supportive, to put it politely, then it can really make things worse."

Luckily for Firestine and the rest of the Weird West team, Wolfeye has adapted well to its all-remote development environment. "I feel very lucky and privileged to be working with a team that's very supportive and very kind and loving to each other," says Firestine, "We're very fortunate to have Julian Roby as our producer -- he is a badass. He was put on this earth to solve problems and make things happen. He's been at the forefront of making sure everybody is able to communicate and get what we need to different people and making sure we have the tools we need and are connected to the right people -- that makes a huge difference!"

In a myriad of ways, Firestine's first role in the games industry has been an intense learning experience. "A lot of it has to do with my personal struggles with stress and anxiety," she says, "One of the reasons I relate to Thancred from FFXIV so much is I have a lot of issues about being good enough and doing enough to stick around and making sure that everybody likes me."

"It's occasionally been a kind of pitfall for me to fall into," Firestine continues, "'If I just put in 70 hours of work this week then everybody will love me,' but it doesn't work like that -- it really doesn't. Having to disconnect those two desires, those two drives and instincts is very challenging and that's something that anybody with anxiety should think about."

For Firestine, the challenging work put into making Weird West has helped her understand what she finds truly important. "It's sort of forced me to realize that the world is not going to end if I miss a deadline," she says, "It's learning to prioritize - it's learning to communicate with people if things go wrong." She continues, saying, "Collaborating with people has helped a lot. I've learned a lot about trusting my team and trusting myself."

The theme of trust and managing her own expectations extends into another of Firestine's great joys and stress-relievers - gardening. "There's so much in gardening that you can't control at all," she says, "In software development, you have to control everything. It gets overwhelming and exhausting trying to keep a leash on every single thing in your area of influence. In gardening, you can do your best with fertilizer and soil and picking plants that are right for the spots that you put them in but at a certain point it's up to the plant -- you just have to wait. You just have to sit there and wait for it to grow. That's just so freeing, in a way."

She says that working in the games industry is about being realistic with expectations for yourself and others. "It's occasionally deceiving going into an industry like this and you expect to enjoy yourself all the time," she reflects. "'You're working in games, you're a game writer. You should be thankful.' And I am thankful but there have also been days where it has been so hard and it's up to each individual person to decide if it's worth it."

But ultimately, Firestine feels she is in the right place. "For me it is [worth it] to be in the room where these decisions are being made and getting to see what's possible with what we create. But it's not going to be worth it for everybody and there's a reason why there's only a five year tenure in the industry. And I think that's something I think the industry needs to work on."

Firestine affirms her anticipation for sharing her work with the world. "Weird West felt a lot like getting tossed headfirst into the deep end," she says, "an immersive sim with the incredible demands on dialogue it needed fulfilled was definitely not the simplest place to start a career in game writing!"

Now that the project is out of her hands, Firestine has the space to reflect on how much she learned. "The big lesson I can take away here is to look at the systems first," she says, "Game writing is half or more systems design at its heart and it's way more fun than you think!"

Firestine's next adventure is with another fully-remote studio called Twin Suns Corp, working on an as-yet-unannounced project that she's looking forward to helping usher into the world.

 

[luj1]

Weird West scribe Erin Firestine on the complexities and intricacies of narrative design​

text dumps + binary/ternary choices incoming

 

[Ibn Sina]

I really tried to like this game but it is so piss easy you don't need to use any fucking skill to complete any section. It has a lot of neat ideas but because of how simple it is (every encounter can be finished with shooting no skill required) they are of no use.

 

[SumDrunkGuy]

I really tried to like this game but it is so piss easy you don't need to use any fucking skill to complete any section. It has a lot of neat ideas but because of how simple it is (every encounter can be finished with shooting no skill required) they are of no use.

Doesn't help that every character plays exactly the same. I like the idea of each chapter featuring a new character who gives a different perspective of the story but it was poorly executed here. Also the story feels like it was written by Larian. Same exact style of humor.

 

[luj1]

Also the story feels like it was written by Larian. Same exact style of humor.

Humor in weird west which is a subgenre of horror lol

they should also give characters oversized heads i guess

 

[Roguey]

Humor in weird west which is a subgenre of horror lol

There are a lot of funny horror stories out there, weird west tales included.

 

[ArchAngel]

I really tried to like this game but it is so piss easy you don't need to use any fucking skill to complete any section. It has a lot of neat ideas but because of how simple it is (every encounter can be finished with shooting no skill required) they are of no use.

I tried playing it on Xbox and it is not easy with a controller lol. Forced me to use Stealth as much as possible.

 

[LarryTyphoid]

Also the story feels like it was written by Larian. Same exact style of humor.

Larian humor? Good grief. Count me out on this one.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

The writing isn’t amazing, but it’s far, far better than anything Larian has shit out (haven’t played BG3); SDG is being dumb.

 

[Tsubutai]

I wanted to like this but completely lost interest mid-way through the third character's story. I really dislike the level design; all of the best immersive sims have huge sprawling and densely interconnected maps with many ways to get from one point to another, which is sort of necessary for the whole "play your own way" idea because it gives you lots of different ways of approaching or avoiding groups of enemies and getting around, but Weird West's maps are very cramped and linear. I also dislike the random encounters, which is another thing that I think is completely incompatible with immersive sim design principles; how can it be "play your own way" if you frequently get dumped into combat directly in front of a bunch of alerted enemies for no reason beyond "rng said so, lol"?

 

[LarryTyphoid]

Still reading the thread. Looks like this game is beloved by all the typical Codex Arkane shills, so that's a pretty dire indication of its quality.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

I wanted to like this but completely lost interest mid-way through the third character's story. I really dislike the level design; all of the best immersive sims have huge sprawling and densely interconnected maps with many ways to get from one point to another, which is sort of necessary for the whole "play your own way" idea because it gives you lots of different ways of approaching or avoiding groups of enemies and getting around, but Weird West's maps are very cramped and linear. I also dislike the random encounters, which is another thing that I think is completely incompatible with immersive sim design principles; how can it be "play your own way" if you frequently get dumped into combat directly in front of a bunch of alerted enemies for no reason beyond "rng said so, lol"?

Yes. 100% this. I like the game... fine, but this is completely spot-on criticism.

 

[Trithne]

Still reading the thread. Looks like this game is beloved by all the typical Codex Arkane shills, so that's a pretty dire indication of its quality.

As a Codex Arkane Shill, while I initially found the game fun, it completely failed to hook me like their other games and I didn't even finish the first story. I'll probably give it another go when they finish patching it, but while I like the setting, I'm not sold on the perspective change from the typical first person, and it's just kinda clunky.

 

[1451]

There are no Arkane shills, I like Arx Fatalis and the Dishonored games but I dislike Messiah and the Prey game.
A developer can be making different games and a player can like some of them and dislike others, what a surprise.

 

[purupuru]

Finally got around to playing this, currently on the second character and I must say I agree with a lot of the criticisms here. I don't feel like I'm playing an immersive sim but rather skyrim with clunky top-down combat: copy-pasted side quests, boring loot and bad itemization, corridor dungeons, generic followers, and the way that magic and thievery exists but it's almost always much less of a hassle to just shoot everyone dead. I suppose TES games do possess significant immersive sim elements, but I highly doubt this was what Colantonio was originally going for.
I am however pleasantly surprised by the way they implemented verticality in the game, it works smoother than I had expected, too bad it's a total non-factor in level design most of the time.

 

[Blutwurstritter]

Why is this associated with the term "immersive sim"? It looks to me like a top down shooter with some rpg mechanics, having watched a review and some gameplay. Even reminded me a bit of Max Payne/Stranglehold with all that bullet time and jumping around. But Thief or Deus Ex? Not once.

 

[Infinitron]

https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1097350/view/3293842268886702474

Weird West Update 1.04 is Live

"Nimpossible," Weird West's Patch 1.04, is now live on all platforms!

This patch features the brand new "Nimpossible Mode," an alternate aiming system, plus tons of miscellaneous polishing and bug fixes. Find out more below!

https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1097350/view/3230790606208126872

https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1097350/view/3230790606201067335

 

[Fedora Master]

Hey remember this game? Yes me neither.

 

[Grunker]

Finally finished this.
Can only imagine Raph was mostly disconnected from the development of the game outside of high level ideation.
Because I can't imagine there were actual humans that played through this thing and said "Yes Weird West is playable, this is fine, this will be received well".

The combat is ridiculous and absolutely has it's wires crossed. It's designed like it was made for a turned based, almost Final Fantasy 7 Remake style combat system.
But it all actually plays out in real time with clunky controls (that eventually you get used to but are still never in your favor).
AI and general game movement is so fast it's silly. Like you're playing a top down shootemup except everything's hitscan and there's no cover system, resulting in constant unmitigated damage and quick reloads when you die to some stupid shit.
They clearly didn't have a single person on the team who actually plays action games. Which I guess is fairly typical for 'immersive sim' tier game design.

Speaking of, the 'immersive sim' stuff actually just doesn't impact the game at all.
There's a few systems going on in the overworld that mean ziltch to your actual experience. The first time in the tutorial you kick an acid barrel will be the last time you meaningfully interact with any physics.
And there's obviously some effort made to allow you to walk into towns in different directions, and initiate combat with NPCs in an unscripted manner.
But Dark Messiah or Arx Fatalis this isn't.
I don't know what it is with these old guard game designers with these 'return to form' games.
It's like they think that just the implementation of a bunch of goofy mechanics like upturned barrels making a water pool, or entities being near a fire catching aflame, is good enough.
But they never actually do anything with it. Sure, you can spend the time and effort setting up to electrify water and deal 5% damage to a bunch of guys that will turn around and shoot you in the head. Or you could just, shoot them.
We should've learned these lessons from games like Breath of the Wild, Bioshock 2, and Divinity Original Sin.
Deathloop had the exact same problem. You can't care about these systems when 99.9% of the time you're simply walking around and shooting because it's so easy.

And it's not like they're completely blind to this stuff. In my playthrough there was an instance that required something other than shooting, or pressing A to interact.
It was secret area where a couple of electrical poles needed electricity to activate (throw a lightning grenade at them). I guess that's immersive.

In terms of progression and itemization it's just bonkers. By the time you get to character 3 I guarantee you won't use the upgrade points beyond just seeing what each individual character's unique skills do.
Not only is it tiresome to re-unlock the same 'general' abilities over and over. But beyond one or two of them they're all genuinely useless.
In fact, once you hit the midgame and have realized the dominant strategy is just run around with guns doing the gundodge move, the entire progression and item loop is completely sidelined. I was hoarding things like dynamite, bandages, and all the different throwables in the off chance that something would require their use. There never is. (Maybe during some cave explorations you'll use dynamite to blow up some rocks every now and then).
Also, the actual finding and picking up of items is completely indefensible. All the notes and books and even quest items are difficult to spot from this topdown perspective. This only adds to the frustration and lack of intentionality.

And finally, the story, as mildly sticky as it is, is not interesting. The ending isn't worth the squeeze, and it's rubbed in even more with the finale dialogue which does and means nothing. Expositioning an explanation that reveals nothing of great interest.
So much potential with the core idea but totally fumbled.
Credit where it's due though, if they ever re-design the game, I'd come back for a second runthrough, to see how a couple of things go differently.

Speaking of due credit. As badly made as this game is, and how much they essentially lied throughout the gamedev playthroughs and marketing, I'm happy Raph and co got to makeand release a scuffed and non-standard videogame.
I appreciate all the systems (friend for life, wanteds, multiple characters, ghost towns, etc) but can't help but feel they got like half way through the initial design docs and wrapped things up just to ship it.

Saved me 40 euros, thx m8

 

[LarryTyphoid]

Why is it assumed that Colantonio isn't to blame for the faults in Weird West? Paul Neurath designed Ultima Underworld and worked on all the Looking Glass classics, and then he produced Underworld Ascendant. All Colantonio worked on were some shitty Arkane knock-offs, so why should he get more of the benefit of the doubt?

 

[ADULF HITLOR FAN KLUB]

The writing isn’t amazing, but it’s far, far better than anything Larian has shit out (haven’t played BG3); SDG is being dumb.

Does the game still have Larian-style indirect dialogue?

 

[Renevent]

Writing may be okay (I ignored it) but the game itself is kinda shitty. Starts out promising but you quickly see it's faults and how shallow everything is. It's a shame because I do like the other games they've (Ralf and whoever left for this team) made like Arx Fatalis, Prey, etc.

 

[Child of Malkav]

 

[Mega Black]

Why is this associated with the term "immersive sim"? It looks to me like a top down shooter with some rpg mechanics, having watched a review and some gameplay. Even reminded me a bit of Max Payne/Stranglehold with all that bullet time and jumping around. But Thief or Deus Ex? Not once.

Because the team wanted to use the "Immersive Sim" label as marketing to draw in a specific crowd who likes Arkane games, which is hilarious, because "Immersive Sim" is basically sales-poison as a title and any dev striving to make a game similar to Thief or Deus Ex should stay as far the fuck away from it as possible, since it scares the average videogame consumer away.