Wasteland Wasteland 2 Pre-Release Discussion Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[MisterStone]

I'm not saying Fallout was all THAT bad. What I don't like about it is that it lacks realism in favor of balancing character builds. Take Fallout's system, add stances and cover, plus interrupts, none of that "firing a pistol takes as much time as kicking someone in the head" bullshit, and that's fine by me. I'd like to see some more exotic combat tactics in the later game (ie something that would allow you to use energy melee weapons like the proton axe on a large armored opponent) but I don't what the combat system built from the ground up to make this viable versus people with guns.

 

[flabbyjack]

This is Wasteland 2, not some fancy 'the new shit' RPG. I would want to see them attempt to stay as true to the original as possible by analyzing a set of updates that would be most easily rolled into a new version of the game(Such as dialogue trees). For example they COULD have kept the same combat system and saved themselves a bunch of work, but the interview reveals otherwise. Obviously they would at least update the graphics, audio, and UI, but I get the feeling they will be starting from scratch and WL2 will not play anything like WL1.

Since they're going with a new proprietary engine they probably won't use any original code -- although they should! With modern code design tools they could extract much of the original code(I assume it is written in C) into a base preliminary software design. This could work on the inventory/equipment system for example.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

 

[Gregz]

it lacked fully controllable party members, encounters tailored for such and just better balance overall. sure add in stances, tweak guns, that is simple enough. but more than that will just take development time that is better used somewhere else. we are talking about a rpg here, not a tactical squad game.

JA2 is probably the best example of a squad-based RPG. They are not mutually exclusive concepts.

So really what I'd like to see is super-detailed tactical combat, not something like you have in Fallout

In a fantasy world where a JA2 combat system isn't exceptional even to games in its own genre yeah, that's possible.

So you wont be looking forward to this if it had a combat system as good as fallout's. What are those rpgs you recently played with good TB combat that hasnt been released in the 80s or 90s again? Cause I'd love to play them, too.

There's not much point to look forward to game with combat system as good as Fallouts, cause Fallout combat was really mediocre.

I guess I misread his post, I thought he was saying we're asking for the moon because JA2s combat system is superior to just about anything "in its own genre", but 10+ years later developers still aren't using it. The question is why not?

In MOO2 the player can choose between tactical or quick combat. If you're in a hurry, and you know you are going to win without taking casualties then use the fast version. If you're a big combatfag (like me) or are facing difficult odds, choose tactical. Designing a combat engine like the original Wasteland's would be trivial, so it's not as if adding that option would be much on the budget. I think the winning formula would be:

The original Wasteland (2d top-down exploration, MisterStone 's "Use Skill/Stat on Object mechanic", same setting and style like the stuff MisterStone and Grim Monk mentioned) + JA2 squad-based combat and equipment options + brilliant writing (Brian Fargo is no longer the man for the job).

That would be the a good start in the right direction.

 

[Kalin]

Game needs some 3 Dawg.

 

[Marobug]

I was about to write a long ass post on what I would want in a wasteland sequel, but then I realized I could sum it up in a word. Fallout

 

[Wyrmlord]

What I want in Wasteland 2:

No more consulting the paragraph book.

Keep the Bard's Tale style combat (it's not perfect, I know), but add visual depictions of every combat encounter.

 

[Azrael the cat]

What with Brian Fargo getting the old Wasteland team back together to work on a sequel as their Kickstarter project,
I figured I'd make a thread where we could compile all our thoughts and ideas on it. Once it gets enough replies, I'll
send a link to it to Brian Fargo on twitter, so please don't let this thread go off topic and fill up with spam or flames.

I'll go ahead and get the discussion started with some stuff I'd like to see.

* Full party creation with detailed character portraits and backgrounds. Want I want to see the most. I
want to create a full party of my own unique characters, I do not want something like a Bioware
game where you only get to make the protagonist and recruit a bunch of emotionally immature crybabies
along the way.

For a bit of added depth, you could give us various character portraits to choose, as well as optional
backgrounds that give several bonuses and penalties to stats/skills, like the traits and background
stories in Fallout and Arcanum.

*Big party size, maybe 6-7 members as max size, no 3 party member bullshit.

* Tactical turn-based combat with full-party control. I don't want to only be able to control one while
the AI does the rest.

* Permanent death, maybe with bleedout system. Say, if a guy loses all hp, he starts to bleed out. You would
have a limited number of turns to get your first aid specialist over to him to patch him up, but if you
fail to reach him in time or an enemy finishes him before you reach him, he dies and is gone for good. Alternatively, just have someone get blasted into a billion gloriously violent pieces upon a critical hit, a la Fallout.

* 2D isometric visuals. Isometric angle is my favorite for these types of games. 2d is just my
personal preference, although 3D is fine too so long as the camera doesn't suck.

* No filler combat encounters. Fighting legions of trash mobs is never fun. Use a variety of different
enemy types and take time to handcraft fights that will be fun and challenging.

* Smaller amount of loot, but more customizable and varied (weapon mods, ammo types, etc). I do not like
the Diablo-style loot system where you find a new and better weapon/armor every five minutes. When I find a cool
new weapon I want it to feel like I've just gotten my hands on something special that will last me quite a while.

* No voice acting, I'd much rather just imagine the characters' voices myself and have longer
dialogues.

* Well designed dungeons. Something like Fallout's Glow would be a good example to follow with
places to put various skills to good use, and the dungeon provides good backstory. For something
more combat-centric, Icewind Dale's Dragon's Eye and Severed Hand dungeons could provide some
inspiration. Unique non-linear dungeons with multiple floors, full of varied enemy encounters and
ambushes, traps, etc; something that would really allow you to get the most out of the tactical
turn-based combat and your party's skills.

* No romances. Doesn't really need explaining on this one.

* Appropriate soundtrack. It's a sci-fi/post-apoc game so something ambient or lo-fi would be
appropriate. No orchestral shit. Maybe get Mark Morgan, he did Fallout 1-2 and Planescape's osts.

* No collect-a-thon/fetch quests. Quests like "Collect 15 Robo-Scorpion Tails" or "You found 6/30
hidden whatevers" or "Deliver a meal to Smitty" are boring as fuck. Please don't include them.

* No morality system nonsense. Just give me some options to take and I'll do the rest from there,
and live with the consequences. I don't want a post-apoc game lecturing me on good and evil.

And last but certainly not least:
* Killable children. Because why not?

It sucks in some ways that we have to state shit like 'no romances' to avoid Bio-horror-ware slashfiction style of writing, because romances can be part of a good plot, including good game plots. They were used well in PS:T, because they were about the game's theme, with the 'I choose to shag X or Y' part minimised - all of your followers have suffered the curse of Torment BECAUSE of their loyalty to you, and Annah's curse is that she's in the worst of all possible relationships (in love with a doomed immortal who brings misery to all who accompany him?...great boyfriend material there...). In case the player has missed the obvious, Ravel points it out painfully to each of them, leading to the one time in the game that Morte actually loses his shit and gets angry rather than deflecting comments about his bodiless state with counter-jibes and jokes, with the odd one out being Fall-from-Grace, who has only recently joined your party in the overall timeline (noting that Vhalior and Ignus copped their Torments a loooonggg time ago, and Nordrom copped his as soon as you open the box). Then in the best-possible-ending finale, you resurrect everyone, giving them all the opportunity to live free from your curse, only for FFG to vow (in a dimension where vows of that kind are binding) to return to the hells and never stop looking for you - when it's made very clear that's an impossible task and she's just been led by 'love'/curse-induced-idiocy to suffer her version of the curse of Torment.

Now that was fine because the romances came second to the plot and themes. None of this 'design me a few romance options, one slutty, one virginial'- instead it's 'here's a character, here's the theme, just happens that one way of implementing the theme in that case was through a romance plot.

What Bioware doesn't realise is that for some time now, they've been writing porn. Lame censored non-graphical porn, but porn nonetheless. Imagine Bladerunner written by Bioware. You'd have Decker as THE Bladerunner, the badass who EVERY motherfucking girl, guy, cyborg and alien AI on the planet wants to get it on with. IT'S A FUCKING PORN MOVIE!!!! One of those 70s ones, with plots and all, but still - a motherfucking porn film!!! Because everywhere he goes, he's getting in with folk for reasons that have nothing to do with the plot.

Compare that to the ACTUAL film. There's a romance and it's central to the plot AND themes, but to my memory there isn't even a sex scene. Decker falling in love with (forget her name - the replicant...ahem, the 'other' replicant, who doesn't know it is a replicant) reflects the moral ambiguity of any distinction between genuine intelligence, whether artificial or natural, and the 3 main characters - Decker, Rutger Hauer's lead rebel replicant and the love interest - all becoming ambivalent about the whole distinction, until Decker doesn't care that she's a replicant, doesn't care about knowing whether or not he's a replicant, and where Hauer accepts his mortality and lets Decker go as a fellow (and morally equal) living being. To take the romance out of that plot would trash the film. But to do Bioware-romances to it would be even worse.

You'd think that game developers would 'get' that. That they'd understand that sure there's money to be made in a dating sim, just like any other type of porn, but that doesn't mean that you throw it in your story-driven games as a fucking feature!. That romances can be used as wonderful story techniques (though I have to agree that the best ones have always been 'hatemances', just look at the classics - Hamlet driving Ophelia to insanity and suicide, Edmund playing Lear's daughters against each other having backstabbed his way from messenger boy to one step from the throne, Othello's jealousy being preyed on by Iago...). How did we come to this, where a legitimate story technique must be ruled out, because we can't trust game studios not to just dive headfirst into the porn market instead.

 

[Azrael the cat]

I'm not saying Fallout was all THAT bad. What I don't like about it is that it lacks realism in favor of balancing character builds. Take Fallout's system, add stances and cover, plus interrupts, none of that "firing a pistol takes as much time as kicking someone in the head" bullshit, and that's fine by me. I'd like to see some more exotic combat tactics in the later game (ie something that would allow you to use energy melee weapons like the proton axe on a large armored opponent) but I don't what the combat system built from the ground up to make this viable versus people with guns.

Best way of balancing melee, to my view, would be to take advantage of the NY Police's gun v knife tests from a few years back. An experienced officer with regular firearm practice, approaching normally (so weapon loaded, but with safety on and in holster), is at a disadvantage to an average knife-wielder at 30 feet or less (knife-wielder also has to draw from his pocket or belt). Commonly cited in defence of police shootings - that even with a gun, you're still in danger when the guy starts waving a knife around. That's a fucking huge distance - and let's not pretend that our characters walk around with their safety off and their weapons shoulder-mounted all day. Okay, maybe you can have a slower-moving 'readied' approach, provoking warnings and hostile reactions in populated areas (like if you went around waving a gun in a public place), but this is a crpg - so we aren't talking about the AVERAGE knife wielder. We're talking about a guy who seems like he's been custom-designed to kill people with knives (because he has been...um...custom designed to kill people with knives). Big point investment in speed and knives, and our guy is cutting off folks' trigger fingers before they can fire. In party-based tactical games, I like builds that give a character the option of being extremely useful in some circumstances, while weak in others, and I can think of 2 was that this kind of knife thinking could make for entertaining builds. The obvious one would be the speed/knife/stealth (slitting throats and trigger fingers before folks know where he is), and less obvious is the massive-investment-in-speed approach where he's a specialist in taking out heavy weaponry. He's the guy you send to rush the enemy's rocket launcher, fast enough to beat the reactions of the enemy squad's scouts and able to take out the heavy weapons guy before he can one-shot-kill most of your team. Both builds would have dominance over guns in enclosed environments and towns, due to the aforementioned 30 foot rule, but would have to switch to a backup pistol that they're pretty shit at using whenever the group is caught in a standard fire-fight (so helping the team greatly in some circumstances, but being a liability in others).

 

[MisterStone]

Both builds would have dominance over guns in enclosed environments and towns, due to the aforementioned 30 foot rule, but would have to switch to a backup pistol that they're pretty shit at using whenever the group is caught in a standard fire-fight (so helping the team greatly in some circumstances, but being a liability in others).

I think the whole 30-ft rule is based on the knife wielding person being the aggressor, and the cop not being aware right away that someone wants to stick him. Really, I think knives and other melee skills would really be useful mainly in a civilian setting (where you can't be carrying a gun around) or in non-lethal combat, where you need to hand someone their ass without killing them. Otherwise, it's probably only useful for stealth purposes (In JA, for instance, melee is generally only useful if you drop off of a building right behind a dude and stick them before they can fight back. ), or if they have some kind of crazy SF melee weapons (PROTON AAAAXE) that would have advantages that make up for the lack of range.

 

[SCO]

Except knifes are pretty fucking lethal.

I'd prefer to copy JA2 exactly. Knifes are a lethal silent weapon that becomes useless if they are aware of you from enough far away to get a interrupt, and are inferior in most ways to a silenced handgun (can be totally silent when attacking as a bonus, but you need high stealth anyway to approach) so are mostly used as a challenge in indoor fighting. Or they can be thrown but with severely limited range and only lethal on certain body positions of the target body position; back of the head, throat (harder)

 

[Albers]

Would actually be quite pleased if it was 3D. Not Oblivion with Guns nonsense, but let us swivel the camera, zoom in, pan out, etc.

Want to see funny/nonsensical stuff: talking mutant animals, STOP signs as shields, mutant prostitutes with 3 tits.

 

[laclongquan]

Fallout2 qualities plus FalloutTactics combat.

 

[Gregz]

Would actually be quite pleased if it was 3D. Not Oblivion with Guns nonsense, but let us swivel the camera, zoom in, pan out, etc.

Want to see funny/nonsensical stuff: talking mutant animals, STOP signs as shields, mutant prostitutes with 3 tits.

Sounds like you're describing Oblivion with Guns nonsense to me, in which case just play Fallout 3.

 

[Turisas]

There's not much point to look forward to game with combat system as good as Fallouts, cause Fallout combat was really mediocre.

Worse than that. It was terrible. Even Wasteland itself had a better combat.

Screw you guys. There was nothing wrong with it except those fucking slow melcars everywhere that at worst slowed everything into a crawl.

 

[Gregz]

JA2 combat > Fallout combat

 

[Shannow]

JA2 combat > Fallout combat

That wasn't the issue, but whatever.

And yeah, JA2-like combat would be great.

 

[Johannes]

JA2-style combat is fine if it includes meson cannons and blood sausages.

 

[Spectacle]

The main thing I want is for Wasteland 3 to be an excellent turn-based hardcore rpg that sells absolute bundles and makes publishers decide that there is a decent, untapped market for quality games.

 

[Ogg]

What I'd want for Wasteland 2 ?
Well, they should hire Mark Morgan for the soundtrack.
...
...
Wait, they've already hired him.

(cum in my pants)

 

[Johannes]

Would actually be quite pleased if it was 3D. Not Oblivion with Guns nonsense, but let us swivel the camera, zoom in, pan out, etc.

Want to see funny/nonsensical stuff: talking mutant animals, STOP signs as shields, mutant prostitutes with 3 tits.

Sounds like you're describing Oblivion with Guns nonsense to me, in which case just play Fallout 3.

In what way? I didn't play Oblivion but it seemed to be a pretty bland and generic world. And we already had VISA sign carrying monks in Wasteland, talking deathclaws in FO2, prostitutes in FO though # of tits was not mentioned.

Or if it's about the camera... It will most likely be 3D, deal with it. Is that a problem somehow?

 

[Gregz]

It will most likely be 3D, deal with it. Is that a problem somehow?

Honestly yeah, I want a 3D Wasteland as much as I want a 3D X-Com (I don't.) Sadly, they are making the latter.

Ideally it should be 2D top-down exploration with JA2 style isometric squad-based combat, with a MOO2 'fast combat' (non-tactical) option that plays similar to combat from Wasteland 1.

But you are right, they would never do something like that...sadly. I wish KoTC caught on with more people than just gamers. That game could have started a 2D renaissance/revival.

 

[Johannes]

So, is AoD just Oblivion with spears to you then?

 

[Clockwork Knight]

So, is AoD just Oblivion with spears to you then?

 

[Albers]

It will most likely be 3D, deal with it. Is that a problem somehow?

Honestly yeah, I want a 3D Wasteland as much as I want a 3D X-Com (I don't.) Sadly, they are making the latter.

Ideally it should be 2D top-down exploration with JA2 style isometric squad-based combat, with a MOO2 'fast combat' (non-tactical) option that plays similar to combat from Wasteland 1.

But you are right, they would never do something like that...sadly. I wish KoTC caught on with more people than just gamers. That game could have started a 2D renaissance/revival.

I've played my fair share of 2D games and, sure, you get used to it. But you have to admit there are times when you can't see around a corner, can't see an enemy cuz he's stuck behind an open door and the engine doesn't let you peek around it. Or you get the walls fading in and out so you can actually see that there's a guy on the other side of that wall -- or Fallout's green outline thing.

Point is, as in a table-top RPG, it's nice to have a good 3D view of the playing field. Makes things more tactical and (usually) needs less silliness like invisible walls, green outlines around enemies, etc.

 

[villain of the story]

Question: can we say that Wasteland has JRPG combat because if you cut out the graphics representation from JRPGs, it's basically the same as Wasteland ie. no careful maneuvering around game world and obstacles and just watching your characters and enemies go forth and back from their fixed positions to play out their attacks instead, which is handled by pure text in Wasteland.