Wasteland Wasteland 2 Pre-Release Discussion Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Jim the Dinosaur]

I dislike percentile systems in general

I've been meaning to ask, what is it exactly that you and Grunker have against percentile systems? I'm assuming it's not just a PnP convenience thing because I remember you (at least Grunker) complain about it in SPECIAL.

Also, less off-topic: W2 will be using a percentile system, right (just like, IIRC, PE and AoD)?

 

[shihonage]

This thread has become so clever it literally hurts my brain trying to understand it.

 

[Roguey]

Roguey A fine theory, but consider the Perception skill. Unlike Brute Force, it's not competing with any other more traditional skill.

The same learn-by-use problem. Awareness affects x number of skills and likely other non-skill things. Successfully using perception as an active ability would then improve all those things instead of just your ability to perceive things in the world.

 

[Infinitron]

The same learn-by-use problem. Awareness affects x number of skills and likely other non-skill things. Successfully using perception as an active ability would then improve all those things instead of just your ability to perceive things in the world.

Obviously if Awareness was directly usable it would not improve on use in such a fashion.

 

[imweasel]

This thread has become so retarded it literally hurts my brain trying to understand it.

Beware the sperge of the Infintron.

 

[Roguey]

The same learn-by-use problem. Awareness affects x number of skills and likely other non-skill things. Successfully using perception as an active ability would then improve all those things instead of just your ability to perceive things in the world.

Obviously if Awareness was directly usable it would not improve on use in such a fashion.

Ad hoc shit. "Using these abilities improves them, but using those doesn't."

 

[Excidium]

I dislike percentile systems in general

I've been meaning to ask, what is it exactly that you and Grunker have against percentile systems? I'm assuming it's not just a PnP convenience thing because I remember you (at least Grunker) complain about it in SPECIAL.

It's mostly in the context of pnp, where % (or any linear roll, like d20 too) have too much randomness to be worth using in a main resolution system in my experience. In games like D&D/d20 or Dark Heresy & Derivates or Call of Cthulhu, luck is generally more decisive than your character's actual ability which is p. dumb.

The problem with Fallout's skills that I remember saying is something else, it's the way it's too easy to cap your hit chance.

Also, less off-topic: W2 will be using a percentile system, right (just like, IIRC, PE and AoD)?

AoD skills are rated at 1-10 now. But this is not really relevant since those games don't use rolls, they just compare your stat with the check requirement.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

AoD skills are rated at 1-10 now. But this is not really relevant since those games don't use rolls, they just compare your stat with the check requirement.

Yeah, my mistake was that I was really only thinking about To Hit Chance, which I know is percentile in PE (though they have that whole "you almost never miss" thing going on as well), and I'm guessing is in W2 and AoD as well. That's probably why I couldn't wrap my head around your objections about randomness, but in the case of skill checks it makes sense. Skill rolls are pretty silly in crpg's anyway (maybe that was Grunker's hang up, because they were pretty rampant and retarded in Fallout, though Fallout 2 mostly eliminated them for the greater good).

 

[Sensuki]

Well technically in D&D you can take 10 or 20 on lots of activities when you aren't under pressure. But no cRPG implemented that so

 

[Infinitron]

Well technically in D&D you can take 10 or 20 on lots of activities when you aren't under pressure. But no cRPG implemented that so

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Take_20
http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Take_20

 

[Sensuki]

Oh yeah forgot about that. Haven't played that since 2002

 

[Endemic]

A variant of that was in the KOTOR games as well IIRC.

 

[Sduibek]

Oh? Fallout is primarily a skill-centric game, where the primary function of the stats is applying a modifier to the skills. I'm not sure to what degree Fallout uses the SPECIAL stats directly - can anybody answer this question?

It checked 'em in dialogues very frequently.

Perhaps Sduibek could assist here. How much does Fallout use direct attribute checks and how much does it use skill checks?

Also, is there any perceivable logic determining where the game uses a Speech skill check and where it uses a Charisma check?

Per might would probably know better than I, but here's what I can tell you: You're both correct, basically. Stats are checked a bunch, but skills matter arguably more and are also checked. I think a general rule in Fallout 1 might be for GAMEPLAY such as combat and interacting with the environment, skills are important, while for DIALOG, stats (and Speech skill) are important.

1) Most dialog options require a minimum intelligence, usually a 4 or 6 (out of max of 10), sometimes higher. For example there's an option when talking to Zax the supercomputer that requires Intelligence of 10. If it makes any difference for this discussion, these are checked with stat modifiers applied, so for example if you're stupid and then take Mentats, you can talk to people as if you're smart.

2) Stats are checked during dialog for things like threatening the person (high strength) or seducing the person (high charisma). Checks in dialog are usually against stats or Speech skill, not other skills. There's a couple times where something like Barter skill is checked during dialog.

3) Skills are used in obvious situations though, like fixing shit checks the Repair skill. But those should be obvious to the player. Even in times where you aren't actually "using" the skill on the object, it should still be pretty clear it's a skill check (i.e. trying to repair some armor).

4) Most checks are random rolls, not actually "minimum X of stat Y" type checks:

Another big difference from Fallout 2 is that there are many more random skill and stat checks as opposed to fixed value requirements. For one thing, this tends to randomize the game and reduce the difference between various character types. For another thing, the threads where you must pass a check are often ones you cannot revisit. For this reason you might want to save before every conversation even if you know what you're doing.

Some examples of checks (random rolls), ripped from Per's guide at http://user.tninet.se/~jyg699a/fallout.html

-- On level 3, use Science on the computers in the room to the left for 350 xp from each - but if you fail an INT check you'll simply spend time "surfing the interweb" and gain nothing.
-- You can actually go and talk to Theresa at any time and convince her the Overseer is right for 750 xp. This requires IN 6 and a Speech check and you only get one attempt, so save first.
-- You can then accost and search him and crack the case for 1000 xp. If you fail a CH check he'll attack and you'll only get 500 xp for killing him.
-- Unless you go out of your way to anger him he'll consider joining you for $100, but if you offer him "a piece of the action" (IN 6) and pass a Speech check he'll come along for free.
-- If you talk to the cook and pass a LK check you get to compliment her on her cooking and gain 1 karma.
-- If Garl thinks you're his father you can tell him to release Tandi if you have IN 6 and pass a CH check or a Speech check.
-- If you get the 1000 xp and tell Sinthia she should move on with her life, you'll get a "freebie" if you're male or if you make a CH check.
-- Male characters can hit on her: if you are a Berserker, or if you have CH 7 and make a CH check.

 

[Infinitron]

Good post, but what I really meant was...

Checks in dialog are usually against stats or Speech skill

When does it use Speech and when does it use stats?

 

[Infinitron]

Nutjob on W2 forums is obsessed with dev console cheats: http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4310&start=80#p73785

 

[Onholyservicebound]

Nutjob on W2 forums is obsessed with dev console cheats: http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4310&start=80#p73785

Nah, having something like that turns what was once a game, into a toy.

 

[Sduibek]

Good post, but what I really meant was...

Checks in dialog are usually against stats or Speech skill

When does it use Speech and when does it use stats?

Heh, oops. Well for starters some background for your previous question: it appears Fallout checks Speech a lot more often than Charisma. There is a check against Charisma in 17 scripts, whereas checks against Speech happen in 103 scripts. I didn't realize until I looked right now that it was that big a difference. Looks like I was wrong, Speech matters way more.

As for the original question itself, Charisma is checked:
1) Whenever trying to seduce somebody (Harry, Jennifer, Keri, Sinthia)
2) Sometimes alongside Barter skill check (meaning it's not unique at all, just a more realistic "stat-or-skill" type check)
3) Sometimes alongside Speech skill check (meaning it's not unique at all, just a more realistic "stat-or-skill" type check)

Which takes care of 10 of those 17 scripts. The other charisma rolls in dialog are:
-- check against strength-or-charisma to see if Bob doesn't want to pay his blackmail dues any more (if he was blackmailed and it's time to pay up),
-- minor difference in a dialog result with Demetre that has no impact on the game,
-- you can get pulse grenades from Michael for letting him know some chick has a crush on him (although I've been informed it's broken in the shipped version of the game)
-- if female, Rhombus can tell you a vague hint about the mutant army if asked for rumors
-- convincing the Vault13 water thief to come peacably (otherwise you have to kill him).
-- while talking to Rutger about missing caravans, seems like with the checks it's easier to get the job back if you fucked up or changed your mind
-- if pass the check, the Master will go into combat instead of giving you one more chance to get dipped (lol, i think they reversed this check on accident)

For other stats.... it generally uses a stat check when it "should", so like there's a few times in the game where you can threaten to kick their ass if they don't do what you want, and those are usually Strength checks instead of Speech checks.

Strength for threatening, Charisma for charming, etc. I don't really feel like digging through all the scripts to check the other stats, sorry. Not at this time anyway. If you search for the word "check" in Per's guide you'll find most examples of stat checks in the game.

 

[Infinitron]

That's okay bro, you've done more than enough to satisfy my curiosity.

 

[Sduibek]

I was going to jokingly reply with "What needs to be done to satisfy other things of yours?" because I'm disgusting and really tired and have a lame sense of humor, but I totally won't do that.


In seriousness though, you're welcome and actually thanks are in order, because of that research I found 3 bugs that need to be fixed. Good ol' buggy Fallout, we do so love it in spite of its many flaws. There should be some kind of Fallout Love emoticon.

 

[Sduibek]

Heh, 3 bugs and 3 typos actually.

So I haven't been following the Wasteland 2 status besides the Update emails, what's going on with it lately? Are most fans pleased with how the development is going? I loved the original but don't have time to follow the various websites of updates.

 

[Endemic]

The checks aren't all hard-coded either, some have random values.

 

[felipepepe]

So I haven't been following the Wasteland 2 status besides the Update emails, what's going on with it lately? Are most fans pleased with how the development is going? I loved the original but don't have time to follow the various websites of updates.

Codex is debating hypothetical implementations of stats/skill rolls, so you can be sure that they are doing well and didn't provide anything for us to hate yet.

Worst "complain" so far is that Fargo is hyping it A LOT, saying many good things, many hearts will be broken if it fails...

 

[Sduibek]

felipepepe Isn't that kind of his job though? I assume that a team that small doesn't have a Marketing Department...

 

[felipepepe]

felipepepe Isn't that kind of his job though? I assume that a team that small doesn't have a Marketing Department...

That's why it is a "complain".

But seriously, we are like starving prisoners watching The Cooking Channel, hosted by Brian Fargo... may it be that once we are freed from the bonds of popamole and partake on Fargo's feast, that it is as good as he makes it looks.

 

[slackerwizrd]

Nutjob on W2 forums is obsessed with dev console cheats: http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4310&start=80#p73785

After reading that entire reply, I felt my will to live begin to fade ever so slightly. I can only hope he's still in grade school and that English is not his first language.