Wasteland Wasteland 2 Pre-Release Discussion Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Excidium]

Call of Cthulhu is a completely different game

At least it isn't Call of Cthulhu d20.

True.

I don't think CoC is that bad, it "werks" for the kind of game it is.

Systemless, WoD or GURPS all work better for the purpose depending on what kind of game you want. Hell, I imagine even Savage Worlds would be a better fit than the core CoC system.

When you say "werks", it's true. Any system does for anything. Most systems can be fun to toy around with.

No but you see, I dislike percentile systems in general but it works well for Call of Cthulhu specifically, the randomness if offset by the fact that investigators already start really high scores in the skills of their field (99% not terribly uncommon), because they are meant to be specialists from the get-go, and the little point in developing further (not to mention how hard it is) also fits the theme. That would be bad in other games (See Deathwatch or DH 2nd edition) but it fits CoC because investigators don't stay in play much longer beyond the point the game starts.

 

[Grunker]

Honestly, I dread to think what you people would've said if someone tried to make a cRPG based on Call of Cthulhu PnP

Call of Cthulhu has one of the worst P&P systems, mechanically speaking, so that's a pretty bad example. It uses percentile die rolls without really having a reason to do so (I.e., it's an arbitrary choice) and during play skills are often either precisely superflous or constantly employed.

I've used GURPS, the WoD-system or simply just played systemless pretty much since forever when playing CoC because the system is so sub-par.

That's nice, but completely irrelevant to what I said. So, do you think merging all the academic skills into a single Science skill would be a good idea in a CoC campaign?

It depends, but in most cases; yes. Though it's sort of an unfair question since you're asking me in the context of a system that certainly won't getting better by merging a handful of skills.

The point is that the different versions of academics rarely serve play in CoC. In the extremely few instances where it would (i.e. in the instances where I'd use GURPS to play CoC), we're talking a level of complexity that Wasteland 2 will not arrive at.

So sure: I would agree that 100 skills, some overlapping, would be ideal for a cRPG. In a land of milk and honey. Seeing as we are not in that land, seeing as we do cannot make unlimited content and complexity, I'd rather have a coherent set of mechanics that work than a long list of skills for the sake of having a long list of skills. In other words: the more, the merrier, in theory, but if Wasteland 2 succeeds in making that huge list of skills uniquely relevant - all at the same time - it'll be a first. A glorious first, I suppose, but a first. Even if they do, I'm left wondering why you don't cut Brute Force and spend your load on another skill altogether? Because the functionality of Brute Force is already in the game in the form of interacting with barred entry-points, of course, they had to be for Picklock and Demolition. As such, adding Brute Force amounts to little work and elongates the list of skills.

Again though, we're sort of 'sperg-guessing.

Call of Cthulhu is a completely different game

At least it isn't Call of Cthulhu d20.

True.

I don't think CoC is that bad, it "werks" for the kind of game it is.

Systemless, WoD or GURPS all work better for the purpose depending on what kind of game you want. Hell, I imagine even Savage Worlds would be a better fit than the core CoC system.

When you say "werks", it's true. Any system does for anything. Most systems can be fun to toy around with.

No but you see, I dislike percentile systems in general but it works well for Call of Cthulhu specifically, the randomness if offset by the fact that investigators already start really high scores in the skills of their field (99% not terribly uncommon), because they are meant to be specialists from the get-go, and the little point in developing further (not to mention how hard it is) also fits the theme. That would be bad in other games (See Deathwatch or DH 2nd edition) but it fits CoC because investigators don't stay in play much longer beyond the point the game starts.

That's the exact reason I like GURPS lite or systemless for Call, though. Honestly I think a really good, really well-designed scary Call game calls for systemless.

 

[tuluse]

Grunker, why is Toaster Repair fine because it "gives access to unique loot", but Brute Force isn't when it is likely to do the exact same thing?

 

[Infinitron]

There is a locked door. There is a person behind the door. Picking the lock allows you to sneak in. Brute Force alerts the person. Demolition kills him.

There is a barred or sealed door. It has no lock. Brute Force and Demolition are your only options.

There is a reinforced door. It is too strong to force open. Picking the lock is your only option.

Etc. Use your imagination, people.

 

[Grunker]

Grunker, why is Toaster Repair fine because it "gives access to unique loot", but Brute Force isn't when it is likely to do the exact same thing?

Because Brute Force is superflous. Other skills exist that do exactly the same but with minor tweaks. Merging them into one skill dependent on you highest skill would make very little difference. Seriously, I wrote about this stuff thrice already, go back and read

There is a locked door. There is a person behind the door. Picking the lock allows you to sneak in. Brute Force alerts the person. Demolition kills him.

There is a barred or sealed door. It has no lock. Brute Force and Demolition are your only options.

There is a reinforced door. It is too strong to force open. Picking the lock is your only option.

Etc. Use your imagination, people.

Minor differences. Effort better used elsewhere... Could make these differences based on attributes (Dex-picklock unlock silently, strength-picklock smash, intelligence-picklock makeshift explosive)... gah, I'm going to bed, tiring to state the same shit four times over now...

 

[Shadenuat]

intelligence-picklock makeshift explosive

Demolitions is also useable in combat. If it would calculate damage from grenades, plastid, used to break fortifications and vehicles, adding it to picklock would be completely retarded.

 

[Excidium]

Grunker, why is Toaster Repair fine because it "gives access to unique loot", but Brute Force isn't when it is likely to do the exact same thing?

Because Brute Force is superflous. Other skills exist that do exactly the same but with minor tweaks.

Wait I thought we were in agreement that Brute Force is bad and wrong mainly because it's basically just using your raw strength and shouldn't be a skill in the first place, not because it has some overlapping applications with other skills. It's a different situation from other skills like synth repair or surgeon that are basically heavily specialized versions of another.

intelligence-picklock makeshift explosive

Demolitions is also useable in combat. If it would calculate damage from grenades

@@

 

[Shadenuat]

There is no throwing skill, if you have not noticed. Unless grenades go in Anti Tank weapons.

 

[Excidium]

There is no throwing skill, if you have not noticed. Unless grenades go in Anti Tank weapons.

@@

M-maybe there are only grenade lauchers

 

[tuluse]

Grunker, why is Toaster Repair fine because it "gives access to unique loot", but Brute Force isn't when it is likely to do the exact same thing?

Because Brute Force is superflous. Other skills exist that do exactly the same but with minor tweaks. Merging them into one skill dependent on you highest skill would make very little difference. Seriously, I wrote about this stuff thrice already, go back and read

There is a locked door. There is a person behind the door. Picking the lock allows you to sneak in. Brute Force alerts the person. Demolition kills him.

There is a barred or sealed door. It has no lock. Brute Force and Demolition are your only options.

There is a reinforced door. It is too strong to force open. Picking the lock is your only option.

Etc. Use your imagination, people.

Minor differences. Effort better used elsewhere... Could make these differences based on attributes (Dex-picklock unlock silently, strength-picklock smash, intelligence-picklock makeshift explosive)... gah, I'm going to bed, tiring to state the same shit four times over now...

You could just have an "open" skill that opens doors and toasters, therefore Toaster Repair is superfluous. I seriously can't wrap my head around how you can *know* one skill is and one isn't without having played the game.

 

[Gurkog]

There should only be 1 skill, punching. Punch open doors, punch grenades so they fly out toward enemies, punch people to get them to agree with you, punch bullets to shoot lead at enemies, etc. Y'all are wasting your time with these multitudes of skills when they are just highly specialized punches.

 

[Shadenuat]

M-maybe there are only grenade lauchers

@@

There should only be 1 skill, punching.

I believe we already had enough Mass Effect
Dark Messiah of M&M qualify too
Now we can do THREE things to DOORS. RPG's evolve fuckers, you either accept that or stay behind rawrwrwreawwwwneee

 

[Monad]

The retard level in this thread is staggering.

 

[Sensuki]

The difference between me and you guys is that I'm not so selfish that I want every Kickstarter RPG to conform to my desires. I realize that every one of these games is meant to revive a specific subtype of CRPG, and I want them to be all they can be.

I want Wasteland 2 to be the best Wasteland/Fallout-style skill-centric, discovery-based RPG that it can be. I want Project Eternity to be the best gamist well-balanced tactical fantasy RPG that it can be. I want Torment to be the best storyfag RPG that it can be. Etc.

I don't believe all of us are selfish that we want all Kickstarter RPGs to conform to one specific design principle. I personally just have a very different opinion about what Project Eternity should be than you. I would prefer that P:E be a bit more true to the ruleset legacies than Josh Sawyer's "These rules are better than D&D" systems. Some of his ideas are good and some of them not so good IMO.

I agree on the other two points, but I would prefer the WL2 combat to be a bit more JA2 tactical than Fallout.

 

[Gurkog]

The only things about Fallout combat that Wasteland 2 should emulate are the death animations.

 

[tuluse]

The only things about Fallout combat that Wasteland 2 should emulate are the death animations.

C'mon we need that trademark realistic friendly fire too

 

[St. Toxic]

Summoning St. Toxic for a speech about the value of discovery.

Dear Ladies & Gentlemen.

Since its founding in 1982 as part of the Cable Educational Network Incorporated, the aim of Discovery has been to first inform, then entertain. With 70% of its content completely fresh on American television at the time, Discovery reached this goal with a moderate amount of success. Now, almost 30 years later, the network continues to draw an audience with shows about nerds blowing shit up and various groups of white-trash building ugly and impractical cars and bikes. The lessons learned are varied; from understanding how a pencil is manufactured in some obsolete factory in Tijuana, to how long one man can survive on a show that revolves around eating and drinking substances that aren't fit for consumption. So, how to size up the value of something so far gone up its own ass? How about we take a page from Jimmy Lee, who before he was shot dead by the police had this to say:

"The world needs TV shows that DEVELOP solutions to the problems that humans are causing, not stupify the people into destroying the world. Not encouraging them to breed more environmentally harmful humans."

 

[Cyberarmy]

Woohoo! Combat Shooting is back.
And it still sounds useless like before

 

[Lancehead]

The feeling I get from the skill list is that they seem to be having a skill for every conceivable action. It would be better to creatively use generic actions (which check your stats) to discover, instead of having a dedicated skill for every unique thing that can be done.

 

[shihonage]

Fargo has thrown the kitchen sink of RPG features at his game.

Regardless of how it turns out, one certainly can't fault his enthusiasm.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Fallout's Doctor, for instance, isn't intrinsically flawed, the game simply didn't have the content to make it useful.

Doctor was actually the useful one of the two (in Fallout 2 at least). You'd get the ridiculously powerful Living Anatomy perk, could get the combat implants, wouldn't have to crawl over to one of the 2 or 3 doctors in the game with crippled legs and got to have a cow in your party to fight off the loneliness after selling all your party members into slavery. Plus there were also some quests unlocked with it I think (Dr. Troy?). It even belongs in a Fallout 2 "ultimate build" (at least, according to Per's guide). First Aid was the pointless one due to stimpaks being everywhere and resting still being less annoying in the off-chance that you burned through the stims.

The division in W2 at the very least looks a lot better purely going by the description, with Field Medic (i.e. First Aid) being a skill used during combat (inconceivable in Fallout) and the other one essentially being the same as Doctor.

Wait I thought we were in agreement that Brute Force is bad and wrong mainly because it's basically just using your raw strength and shouldn't be a skill in the first place, not because it has some overlapping applications with other skills.

Yeah, it offends my delicate simulationist sensibilities that a 1 ST character with max Brute Force can be better at breaking down a door than a 10 ST character. Or is it impossible to increase a skill beyond a certain point if your attributes are too low or something? Either way they might as well have left it out.

 

[RK47]

Always thought New Vegas had it somewhat right, Doctor made stimpacks give more, etc. That's the right direction to take.
In fact, take it further - perhaps at certain threshold, Doctor skills make drugs last longer, lowers addiction chance, effectiveness increased.

That's what skill perks should be about - not some level up prize that people had to plan to pick. Reach a certain level of skill - and be rewarded with a tied perk instead of higher dmg, higher dmg and even higher dmg.

 

[undecaf]

Always thought New Vegas had it somewhat right, Doctor made stimpacks give more, etc. That's the right direction to take.

I thought that was an awfully boring solution. But then, I would've preferred the gameplay to be completely different anyway (even if retaining the FPP shit) so it kinda blended in.

 

[Wise Emperor]

Yeah, it offends my delicate simulationist sensibilities that a 1 ST character with max Brute Force can be better at breaking down a door than a 10 ST character. Or is it impossible to increase a skill beyond a certain point if your attributes are too low or something? Either way they might as well have left it out.

Instead of level cap of some sorts maybe better it would be to implement skill advancement penalty. Something akin to FO skills, over 100 you needed 2 SP to raise skill by 1 over 130 3 etc. Here having 10 strength would give you all the time possibility to raise skill like brute force by ratio 1:1, but having strength 5 after getting, let's say 30% of skill raise the ratio by 1 and so on.

 

[Infinitron]

Yeah, it offends my delicate simulationist sensibilities that a 1 ST character with max Brute Force can be better at breaking down a door than a 10 ST character. Or is it impossible to increase a skill beyond a certain point if your attributes are too low or something? Either way they might as well have left it out.

Instead of level cap of some sorts maybe better it would be to implement skill advancement penalty. Something akin to FO skills, over 100 you needed 2 SP to raise skill by 1 over 130 3 etc. Here having 10 strength would give you all the time possibility to raise skill like brute force by ratio 1:1, but having strength 5 after getting, let's say 30% of skill raise the ratio by 1 and so on.

You're both wrong.

The proper way to implement this is by making the skill highly stat-dependent.

A character with 7 STR could start out with 70 points in Brute Force, for instance. Once you have that many points, who needs to even invest in it any further?

In contrast, a character with 1 ST would start with only 10 points in Brute Force and would need to invest ungodly amounts of skill points in it to get it to a useful level, gimping himself badly.