Wasteland Wasteland 2 Pre-Release Discussion Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Ignatius Reilly]

I think at times the writer was trying not to gush about this game so much being that it's only a preview. He really seems to be grasping at straws though with his criticism, and the best he could come up with is that bit about Bethesda's FO3 being more open ended. Of course, he immediately follows that up with locations being more varied. read: interesting, well-design, actually places you want to explore. Hopefully games like this make people remember what playing an interesting RPG is all about, and future articles will read, "It's not as boring as Bethesda, thank god for that."

I can't wait.

 

[Excidium]

People in this thread: "ALL RPGS MUST HAVE MY IDEALIZED DESIGN PHILOSOPHY THAT EXISTS ONLY IN MY HEAD."

"I want the skills to be balanced...but not TOO balanced! I want the combat to be complex...but not TOO complex!"

Don't be stupid. It's not about "balance", it's about intelligent design. There is no complexity in having a ton of skills, it's just bloat for its own sake like Grunker points.

 

[Infinitron]

People in this thread: "ALL RPGS MUST HAVE MY IDEALIZED DESIGN PHILOSOPHY THAT EXISTS ONLY IN MY HEAD."

"I want the skills to be balanced...but not TOO balanced! I want the combat to be complex...but not TOO complex!"

Don't be stupid. It's not about "balance", it's about intelligent design. There is no complexity in the number of skills, it's just bloat for its own sake like Grunker points.

This is a Wasteland and Fallout sequel and that's the type of skill set that it needs to have to remain faithful.

If you think that's insufferable bloat, then ask for a refund, because this isn't the type of RPG for you.

 

[Grunker]

Grunker: It's not about balance.

Infinitron: YOU JUST WANT BALANCE.

People in this thread: "ALL RPGS MUST HAVE MY IDEALIZED DESIGN PHILOSOPHY THAT EXISTS ONLY IN MY HEAD."

"I want the skills to be balanced...but not TOO balanced! I want the combat to be complex...but not TOO complex!"

Don't be stupid. It's not about "balance", it's about intelligent design. There is no complexity in the number of skills, it's just bloat for its own sake like Grunker points.

This is a Wasteland and Fallout sequel and that's the type of skill set that it needs to have to remain faithful.

If you think that's insufferable bloat, then ask for a refund, because this isn't the type of RPG for you.

I didn't back Wasteland 2. I'm just making a comment on an internet forum. Chill the fuck out.

 

[Infinitron]

Grunker: It's not about balance.

Infinitron: YOU JUST WANT BALANCE

Balance, choices, whatever. I don't give a fuck what you call it. This is what the game needs to do to remain faithful to its legacy, period.

 

[Excidium]

This is the key to understand CRPG players.

Perpetuating bad design is part of our legacy

"if the combat was good Fallout would be shit" suddenly makes sense to me

 

[Infinitron]

Summoning St. Toxic for a speech about the value of discovery.

 

[Grunker]

Grunker: It's not about balance.

Infinitron: YOU JUST WANT BALANCE

Balance, choices, whatever. I don't give a fuck what you call it. This is what the game needs to do to remain faithful to its legacy, period.

It needs superflous skills? What the fuck are you even saying? You think if I asked Brian Fargo he would say "oh yeah, those skills are totally superflous. They gotta be to remain faithful to their legacy!"

Fuckin' hell Codex, sometimes I just...

 

[Infinitron]

It needs superflous skills? What the fuck are you even saying? You think if I asked Brian Fargo he would say "oh yeah, those skills are totally superflous. They gotta be to remain faithful to their legacy!"

Actually, yes.

Dude, this is Wasteland. Toaster Repair is critical to its identity. TOASTER REPAIR.

 

[NotTale]

People in this thread: "ALL RPGS MUST HAVE MY IDEALIZED DESIGN PHILOSOPHY THAT EXISTS ONLY IN MY HEAD."

"I want the skills to be balanced...but not TOO balanced! I want the combat to be complex...but not TOO complex!"

It can't be that bad.

I agree with the idea that character build options should be relatively well balanced. And that exceptions to it should be minimized with respect to the difficulty it takes to balance and the diminishing returns. And at the same time, outliers of strange options are cool too, as long as they're up front about the limited use.

But even then, if it's a spectacular mess of poorly integrated systems, it might still work out to something interesting and fun. I'm sure we have few here that are strangers to games with esoteric knowledge skills, social characters in heavy combat campaigns, or character classes that clearly spent more time in the writing stage than the actual playtest. And have enjoyed those very games played that way, if in spite of the system.

Let's not assume everyone's an aspie who must have it one way. Maybe they just prefer the ideals.

 

[Grunker]

It needs superflous skills? What the fuck are you even saying? You think if I asked Brian Fargo he would say "oh yeah, those skills are totally superflous. They gotta be to remain faithful to their legacy!"

Actually, yes.

Dude, this is Wasteland. Toaster Repair is critical to its identity. TOASTER REPAIR.

Well, a fail is you I suppose. Toaster Repair doesn't look superflous (it says you'll use it to gain random special rewards from objects in the world - that sounds cool). Just because it has a funny name it isn't necessarily superflous.

Also:

It needs superflous skills? What the fuck are you even saying? You think if I asked Brian Fargo he would say "oh yeah, those skills are totally superflous. They gotta be to remain faithful to their legacy!"

Think about what your saying. Your saying that if I asked Fargo, and he were to respond honestly, he would say "we purposely added useless skills to the game to remain faithful to our legacy"?

That's funny, because everything I've read from Fargo on this game has him stating the important of reactivity and how your skills interactions with the world must bring about immediate change and advantage. How his reactivity philosophy stands on the legs of choice, consequence and skill-use.

 

[Grunker]

This is the key to understand CRPG players.

Perpetuating bad design is part of our legacy

"if the combat was good Fallout would be shit" suddenly makes sense to me

I wept for the genre when I read that fucking post. Jesus christ, yeah.

 

[Infinitron]

The difference between me and you guys is that I'm not so selfish that I want every Kickstarter RPG to conform to my desires. I realize that every one of these games is meant to revive a specific subtype of CRPG, and I want them to be all they can be.

I want Wasteland 2 to be the best Wasteland/Fallout-style skill-centric, discovery-based RPG that it can be. I want Project Eternity to be the best gamist well-balanced tactical fantasy RPG that it can be. I want Torment to be the best storyfag RPG that it can be. Etc.

Think about what your saying. Your saying that if I asked Fargo, and he were to respond honestly, he would say "we purposely added useless skills to the game to remain faithful to our legacy"?

That's funny, because everything I've read from Fargo on this game has him stating the important of reactivity and how your skills interactions with the world must bring about immediate change and advantage. How his reactivity philosophy stands on the legs of choice, consequence and skill-use.

OK, I'll bite. What "useless skills" are you talking about?

 

[NotTale]

I want Wasteland 2 to be the best Wasteland/Fallout-style skill and discovery-based RPG that it can be.

It seems unnecessary to assume that it can't be that and balanced. Though I'd agree with you if you're wanting to make a limited development resources argument. If they want to focus away from combat or skill balance, I'm more than able to appreciate that, assuming they do well in their focus. And I suspect I'm not alone. Humans are capable of breadth.

 

[Shadenuat]

Picklock/Bash seems strange, unless game doesn't have STR characteristic. Maybe you could use one to do job silently and another to open jammed doors, but again, real locksmith should be able to handle both with right instruments, because opening jammed doors and replacing locks is his job.
Safe cracking is probably the only one I would drop.
Other than that it's pretty logical. Weapon skills almost mirror Shadowrun Returns, with exception of weapons you just won't need against enemies in Shadowrun, but could meet those in Wasteland; two skills for "science" - it's like Slicing and Repair in KoTOR; two melee skills - hey, AoD has like five and every weapon still feels different; two medical skills - so you can't pick one and become best healbot; three conversation skills - your standard Diplomacy/Intimidate/Bluff from every 3d&d; there seems to be two crafting skills - one for upgrading stuff, and one for scavenging (although merging Salvaging and Stripping or Stripping and Outdoorsman would make sense I think). Stealth, Disarm traps (alarms), Demolitions, "Dodge", Outdoorsman, Perception and Ld - self explanatory.
What's left (animal whisperer, toaster repair, shooting) are more of perks you will probably have to find in a world, and one is only for people who backed the game (which is like D&D "Lore" skill).

 

[Infinitron]

Picklock/Bash seems strange, unless game doesn't have STR characteristic.

Bash? Do you mean Brute Force?

The game does have STR, but you can't "use" it. I believe that the Brute Force "skill" is simply a reflection of a character's Strength score. Brother None, do you know if Brute Force will be upgradable as a skill at all?

 

[Grunker]

The difference between me and you guys is that I'm not so selfish that I want every Kickstarter RPG to conform to my desires. I realize that every one of these games is meant to revive a specific subtype of CRPG, and I want them to be all they can be.

Jesus Christ dude, STOP IT. If this strawman had any gleam of truth to it, you would give a straight up YES, OF COURSE HE WOULD answer to the question of whether Fargo would state that of course he had implemented a bunch of useless skills. The fact that useless skills can be perceived as a positive thing is a special brand of Codex autism - I know of not a single other circle, forum or whatever where this attitude is mirrored. It sure as hell hasn't been by Fargo when he has spoken publicly. He has always held that each skill will be worth putting points into and will make you interact with the environment in ways you couldn't do before.

Codex likes games with skills that aren't used. Codex cannot fathom to criticize these games. Ergo, non-used skills must be a good thing!

OK, I'll bite. What "useless skills" are you talking about?

Useless was hyperbole. I said superflous and I meant it.

Computer Tech and Synth Tech are different versions of the same skill. Brute Force, Demolition and Picklock are different versions of the same skill. Animal Whisperer is a textbook example of a skill that has two or three notes of "haha" to it but will be wasted skillpoints in practice. You have a bunch of combat skills that are split for unknown reasons. A backer skill without a mechanical purpose (the fact that you can literally invest skill points into nothing is pretty telling). Perception has the class A annoyance of never-used Search modes in RPGs: you either walk around with it on constantly (and thus play slow as fuck) or you never use it. Two skills for healing (one of which reminds you of the - even by diehard fans - very criticized Doctor). A circumstancial skill in Outdoorsman (spot how many additional random encounters? one? two? three? during the entire game... how much to be worth an entire skill?)

I'm not demanding perfect balance here, I'm just saying the list looks bloated to me. If every skill had at least some kind of reason to exist I wouldn't even question it.

 

[Monad]

The point is to have multiple ways of doing the same thing isn't it....

 

[Infinitron]

Computer Tech and Synth Tech are different versions of the same skill.

How do you know?

Brute Force, Demolition and Picklock are different versions of the same skill.

How do you know?

Blowing shit up is the same thing as picking a lock, really?

Animal Whisperer is a textbook example of a skill that has two or three notes of "haha" to it but will be wasted skillpoints in practice.

Yes, like Toaster Repair. Part of the game's design philosophy and legacy, deal with it.

Discovering those "haha" moments is what the game's about.

Also D&D has Animal Empathy.

You have a bunch of combat skills that are split for unknown reasons.

Also a part of the game's design legacy.

A backer skill without a mechanical purpose (the fact that you can literally invest skill points into nothing is pretty telling).

Ditto.

Perception has the class A annoyance of never-used Search modes in RPGs: you either walk around with it on constantly (and thus play slow as fuck) or you never use it.

Oh, give me a break.

Two skills for healing (one of which reminds you of the - even by diehard fans - very criticized Doctor). A circumstancial skill in Outdoorsman (spot how many additional random encounters? one? two? three? during the entire game... how much to be worth an entire skill?)

Also a part of yadda yadda yadda

 

[Grunker]

Computer Tech and Synth Tech are different versions of the same skill.

How do you know?

It says so in the description. Both "are used to activate robots."

Brute Force, Demolition and Picklock are different versions of the same skill.

How do you know?

It says so in the description. All are used to gain entry. Hell, Brute Force even fucking says it's the same as Demolition, just for free and with less bang.

You didn't read the list, did you?

Animal Whisperer is a textbook example of a skill that has two or three notes of "haha" to it but will be wasted skillpoints in practice.

Yes, like Toaster Repair. Part of the game's design philosophy and legacy, deal with it.

You repond to my arguments or I don't respond to yours. I already said Toaster Repair gives unique loot, and they can dump that shit all over. Animal Whisperer just lets you run off animals in combat and perhaps a few unique encounters that aren't worth spending a skill on.

Discovering those "haha" moments is what the game's about.

No, it wasn't. You and all the fucking fanboys claiming this cheapen brilliance of Fallout.

Also D&D has Animal Empathy.

D&D is a tabletop game with permadeath. You get eaten by the bear, you make a new character. Saying "please don't eat me" gets more useful that way. Saying "please eat the enemy" even more so. Though, it's interesting you mention this... firstly, because D&D is notorious for superflous skills (Pathfinder fused Listen and Spot into Perception, and Move Silently and Hide into Stealth, for example) AND because Animal Empathy is a class-specific Druid-ability, freely given, which isn't a skill and thus doesn't compete with other skills for skill points.

You have a bunch of combat skills that are split for unknown reasons.

Also a part of the game's design legacy.

Excidium has an excellent point, you know. You should go read his posts and my quoting them. There's no reason for me to repeat my point for the fifth time.

Perception has the class A annoyance of never-used Search modes in RPGs: you either walk around with it on constantly (and thus play slow as fuck) or you never use it.

Oh, give me a break.

I just discussed this in the P:E thread, actually. I can't remember a game where such a skill was useful. Except Wizardry 8 because you could use a Ranger to circumvent its stupidity. It's pretty useful in Might & Magic where you don't have to crawl to use it.

Two skills for healing (one of which reminds you of the - even by diehard fans - very criticized Doctor). A circumstancial skill in Outdoorsman (spot how many additional random encounters? one? two? three? during the entire game... how much to be worth an entire skill?)

Also a part of yadda yadda yadda

Almost every Fallout fan will criticize Doctor, yet you STILL claim they do it this way as a way to live up to the legacy?

I'm done here man, QED. You seem to have flip-flopped a bit since the Fallout thread. Pressure getting to ya?

 

[Infinitron]

Grunker Not flip-flopping. I've already explained. I want Wasteland to be Wasteland, and I want PE to be PE. I understand each game's philosophy, and I want them to embody it.

I personally have a preference for the PE/gamist-type philosophy, but I can enjoy both.

Re: Opening skills

On RPS, Crosmando said this:

I disagree about the redundant thing with Brute Force and Demolitions, for one Brute Force is meant to be a skill replacement for using Strength (the attribute) as a skill in the original, you could directly use a characters’ Strength attribute to knock down a door for example. They wanted to preserve this, so they just made it a skill, Brute Force, which is checked with Strength.

Demolitions on the other hand will probably check another attribute like Intelligence. So the purpose is probably so the player can make a dumb brute who kicks down doors, or a smart engineer who blows them up.

Also, blowing shit up makes noise, which might have side effects. Picking locks doesn't. Bashing something down is somewhere in the middle. Remember, this is a game about reactivity.

 

[Grunker]

I've already explained. I want Wasteland to be Wasteland, and I want PE to be PE. I understand each game's philosophy, and I want them to embody it.

Jesus Christ dude, STOP IT. If this strawman had any gleam of truth to it, you would give a straight up YES, OF COURSE HE WOULD answer to the question of whether Fargo would state that of course he had implemented a bunch of useless skills. The fact that useless skills can be perceived as a positive thing is a special brand of Codex autism - I know of not a single other circle, forum or whatever where this attitude is mirrored. It sure as hell hasn't been by Fargo when he has spoken publicly. He has always held that each skill will be worth putting points into and will make you interact with the environment in ways you couldn't do before.

So yeah... You going to repeat it a fourth time, or we done with that? :/

I disagree about the redundant thing with Brute Force and Demolitions, for one Brute Force is meant to be a skill replacement for using Strength (the attribute) as a skill in the original, you could directly use a characters’ Strength attribute to knock down a door for example. They wanted to preserve this, so they just made it a skill, Brute Force, which is checked with Strength.

Demolitions on the other hand will probably check another attribute like Intelligence. So the purpose is probably so the player can make a dumb brute who kicks down doors, or a smart engineer who blows them up.

"So yeah, we made a pretty much identical skill, when we could have just had one skill and make it look for the highest of you STR or INT when used. But hey, that makes the list longer, right?"

 

[Infinitron]

I've already explained. I want Wasteland to be Wasteland, and I want PE to be PE. I understand each game's philosophy, and I want them to embody it.

Jesus Christ dude, STOP IT. If this strawman had any gleam of truth to it, you would give a straight up YES, OF COURSE HE WOULD answer to the question of whether Fargo would state that of course he had implemented a bunch of useless skills. The fact that useless skills can be perceived as a positive thing is a special brand of Codex autism - I know of not a single other circle, forum or whatever where this attitude is mirrored. It sure as hell hasn't been by Fargo when he has spoken publicly. He has always held that each skill will be worth putting points into and will make you interact with the environment in ways you couldn't do before.

So yeah... You going to repeat it a fourth time, or we done with that? :/

OK, let's try to ask Fargo if he thinks those skills are "useless" or superfluous.

 

[Grunker]

I've already explained. I want Wasteland to be Wasteland, and I want PE to be PE. I understand each game's philosophy, and I want them to embody it.

Jesus Christ dude, STOP IT. If this strawman had any gleam of truth to it, you would give a straight up YES, OF COURSE HE WOULD answer to the question of whether Fargo would state that of course he had implemented a bunch of useless skills. The fact that useless skills can be perceived as a positive thing is a special brand of Codex autism - I know of not a single other circle, forum or whatever where this attitude is mirrored. It sure as hell hasn't been by Fargo when he has spoken publicly. He has always held that each skill will be worth putting points into and will make you interact with the environment in ways you couldn't do before.

So yeah... You going to repeat it a fourth time, or we done with that? :/

OK, let's try to ask Fargo if he thinks those skills are "useless" or superfluous.

If he says that the skills in his game are superflous, I fucking owe you a beer man.

Otherwise, you owe me the local brew next time I'm in Jerusalem.

Also: Never make me go through the process of long-ass quote-by-quote replies again without taking the time to reply youself, or I will strangle you with a toaster!

 

[tuluse]

I think I remember reading one of their design goals was that you couldn't have every skill in the game at a reasonable level with a single party. For better or worse they want content cut off in a single playthrough.