Wasteland Wasteland 2 Pre-Release Discussion Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Sensuki]

x1000

 

[Grunker]

Oh FFS stop whining.

Sensuki is right. Cowboy Moment is just whining as usual though.

BTW, Codex has been BLACKLISTED on the official Wasteland 2 forums: http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=4388&start=60#p73403

Isn't he just saying we have less restriction than them? What's so blacklisting-ish in that?

Oh FFS stop whining.

BTW, Codex has been BLACKLISTED on the official Wasteland 2 forums: http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=4388&start=60#p73403

In before RPGCodex is word-filtered to "I love Wasteland 2".

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Sounds like Energy Weapons are fairly specialized in W2, so there's nothing particularly strange about being able to use them from the very beginning, aside from worldbuilding reasons I guess. In any case, I actually do agree with Sawyer on that - combat skills should either be usable from the very beginning of the game, or the player should be informed which of them aren't.

Oh FFS stop whining.

Sensuki is right. Cowboy Moment is just whining as usual though.

Whining as usual? Did my three posts in the PE thread really upset you that much, Grunker? You need to get out of these megathreads more bro, they're warping your perspective.

 

[Grunker]

Sounds like Energy Weapons are fairly specialized in W2, so there's nothing particularly strange about being able to use them from the very beginning, aside from worldbuilding reasons I guess. In any case, I actually do agree with Sawyer on that - combat skills should either be usable from the very beginning of the game, or the player should be informed which of them aren't.

Oh FFS stop whining.

Sensuki is right. Cowboy Moment is just whining as usual though.

Whining as usual? Did my three posts in the PE thread really upset you that much, Grunker? You need to get out of these megathreads more bro, they're warping your perspective.

"These"?

Basically the only one I frequent is P:E. Can't speak as to its effect on my perspective, but Sawyer definetely makes your butt seep blood.

 

[tuluse]

I like the idea of skills you can't put points in right away. It builds anticipation for when you finally get to use them.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

I like the idea of skills you can't put points in right away. It builds anticipation for when you finally get to use them.

I kinda think they necessitate arbitrary gating mechanisms. Like, the designer needs to specify a point past which content supports the use of such a skill, and then intuit a set of character requirements that correspond do it. Which can be hard to do in non-linear games.

I personally like the idea of skills that are available from the very beginning, but not necessarily usable, more. It makes sense to me that, in a party-based game, I'd like to develop one of my characters as an expert in heavy weaponry, even though such weaponry, or enemies it is effective against, might only start appearing in the game past a certain point. It's just important to unambiguously inform the player of this.

"These"?

Basically the only one I frequent is P:E. Can't speak as to its effect on my perspective, but Sawyer definetely makes your butt seep blood.

Sure, whatever you say bro.

 

[Weilard]

If i say that images looks scantily (i'm about 2 last screens)... afraid that i will be unoriginal. But... i can say that I'm looking forward to start beta test. Quote original:

InXile wrote:
Once the beta testing begins in October and once we have enough feedback from testing, we can evaluate where we’re at and set a new release date.

Without beta testing devs cannot evaluate at what stage game now? Understand me right. Fact that status of game, after 18 months of development still have name beta ... it's weird. Not so weird as alfa status but yet... weird.

As you know pledges on Kickstarter have a words - "early playable beta on steam". What lies behind word "early"? Version which been under and still under construction after of 15 months of development? Maybe would be worth present to public early beta really early? Or early beta has been canceled, and change name on late-beta? Who can answer?

 

[Lancehead]

I kinda think they necessitate arbitrary gating mechanisms.
[...]
I personally like the idea of skills that are available from the very beginning, but not necessarily usable, more.

If you can't use a skill from the early stages, then it means the content is at least somewhat gated anyway.

 

[Infinitron]

If i say that images looks scantily (i'm about 2 last screens)... afraid that i will be unoriginal. But... i can say that I'm looking forward to start beta test. Quote original:

InXile wrote:
Once the beta testing begins in October and once we have enough feedback from testing, we can evaluate where we’re at and set a new release date.

Without beta testing devs cannot evaluate at what stage game now? Understand me right. Fact that status of game, after 18 months of development still have name beta ... it's weird. Not so weird as alfa status but yet... weird.

As you know pledges on Kickstarter have a words - "early playable beta on steam". What lies behind word "early"? Version which been under and still under construction after of 15 months of development? Maybe would be worth present to public early beta really early? Or early beta has been canceled, and change name on late-beta? Who can answer?

'sup Rick Lion.

 

[Roguey]

Such a filthy simulationist character system, and the possibility of awful builds is confirmed! Thankfully we still have Josh Sawyer, the only game developer in the world who truly understands system design.

Energy weapons are gamey as all hell with their "more metal = more damage, no metal = practically no damage" aspect. As usual, this is quasi-sim.

 

[DeepOcean]

Such a filthy simulationist character system, and the possibility of awful builds is confirmed! Thankfully we still have Josh Sawyer, the only game developer in the world who truly understands system design.

Energy weapons are gamey as all hell with their "more metal = more damage, no metal = practically no damage" aspect. As usual, this is quasi-sim.

I found this strange too. They could had done something less "gamey", maybe energy weapons having massive bonus to accuracy but being terrible at penetrating body armor at long range and having a low rate of fire.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

I kinda think they necessitate arbitrary gating mechanisms.
[...]
I personally like the idea of skills that are available from the very beginning, but not necessarily usable, more.

If you can't use a skill from the early stages, then it means the content is at least somewhat gated anyway.

It is. My point was that it's better to gate the content than the character progression. If only because content gating can be "soft" in well-designed games, so enterprising players can get around it, which in my opinion is a good thing. In essence, I think the possibility of speed runs in Fallout is a very cool feature, a sign of robust and thorough design.

Of course, Sawyer wouldn't see it as such. God forbid players play the game in ways He hadn't envisioned.

Such a filthy simulationist character system, and the possibility of awful builds is confirmed! Thankfully we still have Josh Sawyer, the only game developer in the world who truly understands system design.

Energy weapons are gamey as all hell with their "more metal = more damage, no metal = practically no damage" aspect. As usual, this is quasi-sim.

So you're saying that they're not simulating the qualities of real-life ion cannons very accurately?

 

[tuluse]

Character progression gating can be soft to a degree too.

If you couldn't put points into energy weapons until small weapons were at 80 (just an example), it would be up to the player to decide when that happens.

 

[imweasel]

This game is turning out very nice. Brian is my fucking hero - and I don't give a shit how fucking gay that sounds.

After reading the Gamestar article I am quite sure that the scope of the project exceeds the the ~ $2.5 million from Kickstarter by far (don't forget the physical goods and Kickstarter/Amazon commisions). The article says that they have about 30 people working on the game; the scope is absolutely huge and larger than I think anyone here (including myself) expected. I know that Brian said that they were putting all profits (Bard's Tale iOS, etc.) into Wasteland 2, but I still wasn't expecting the game to grow this fucking big.

That can only mean one thing: Brian truly believes in this game. :D

Energy weapons are gamey as all hell with their "more metal = more damage, no metal = practically no damage" aspect. As usual, this is quasi-sim.

It made more sense in Fallout, where metal armor had a better chance of partially reflecting the beam of laser weapons (= less damage). So it should actually be the other way around, i.e. running around naked and getting zapped in the balls with a laser should hurt more than if you are wearing metal armor.

But, as they say, gameplay > simulation, even if the gameplay doesn't really respect the laws of physics.... but maybe some info was just lost in translation. We'll know more in the beta.

 

[Gurkog]

Looks good and am frothing at the mouth in anticipation of getting my grubby mitts on a copy.

 

[valcik]

Folklore: backers of the funding campaign get more detailed information about the world.

Does this mean two different versions of the game? Full Wasteland 2 for backers and Wasteland 2 Lite for future GoG/STEAM customers?

 

[Excidium]

It's probably just more text on some shit or another

 

[Lancehead]

I kinda think they necessitate arbitrary gating mechanisms.
[...]
I personally like the idea of skills that are available from the very beginning, but not necessarily usable, more.

If you can't use a skill from the early stages, then it means the content is at least somewhat gated anyway.

It is. My point was that it's better to gate the content than the character progression. If only because content gating can be "soft" in well-designed games, so enterprising players can get around it, which in my opinion is a good thing. In essence, I think the possibility of speed runs in Fallout is a very cool feature, a sign of robust and thorough design.

Resourceful players should be rewarded, that's true, but I don't value highly that which results from gaining the meta-knowledge of the game.

Of course, Sawyer wouldn't see it as such. God forbid players play the game in ways He hadn't envisioned.

New Vegas certainly says otherwise.

 

[Kem0sabe]

Folklore: backers of the funding campaign get more detailed information about the world.

Does this mean two different versions of the game? Full Wasteland 2 for backers and Wasteland 2 Lite for future GoG/STEAM customers?

It just means you will have to download the extra merchants from the web if you want the backer experience.

 

[Duraframe300]

Of course, Sawyer wouldn't see it as such. God forbid players play the game in ways He hadn't envisioned.

New Vegas?

I don't think Sawyer is at all against sequence breaking.

 

[Roguey]

So you're saying that they're not simulating the qualities of real-life ion cannons very accurately?

They're not simulating how many people expect energy weapons to work, much like Fallout 3 and New Vegas.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

So you're saying that they're not simulating the qualities of real-life ion cannons very accurately?

They're not simulating how many retards expect energy weapons to work, much like Fallout 3.

fixed

They are filthy simulationists who are attempting to simulate more science than fiction.

 

[dunno lah]

Why would laser weapons be weak against organic materials?

 

[Kem0sabe]

Why would laser weapons be weak against organic materials?

Because kinetic weapons are just better...

The story is set in some high-tech and/or futuristic society. There are massive computer networks, sentient robots, and ships that can zip across space with the same amount of effort it takes you to go to the store down the street. Despite all this technology, however, combat isn't all that different. Battle armor may have some gizmos on it, the guns may have higher muzzle velocities and an ammo count greater than the population of several rural communities, war vehicles may be able to do some fancy new tricks, but combat is the same at heart, bullets and shells still rule the battlefield.
If there are energy weapons in the universe, they either are experimental and wracked with issues like overheating and unwanted by-products, or they're horribly disadvantaged with few available shots before a recharge or a new power pack is required. They will often also be the first type of weapon to go wrong; the more complex parts a weapon has the more likely it is to break. The reason for favouring projectiles in fiction is Rule Of Cool — while subjecting stuff to melting or explosive evaporation is cool, broken pieces of the same stuff flying away with a boom may be even better than the mediocre zap of a laser. This does of course have its roots in the fact that Reality Is Unrealistic: serious laser weaponry actually uses short duration pulses with incredibly high energies that would simply explode an object into plasma the same as if it were hit by a high-velocity projectile... but audiences still expect to see Laser Cutters, so we're stuck with them. There are also real world scientific reasons for using projectiles instead of energy weapons, especially against shielded ships. In defending against lasers, the in-universe shields may be extremely effective at re-radiating heat back into space. To stop a projectile, the shield has to decelerate it, and any force applied to the projectile is in turn applied to the shield generator. Mike Wong of Stardestroyer.net does a good job explaining how the strength of even the strongest shield can come down to how well it's attached to the superstructure of the ship. Sometimes kinetic weapons themselves don't appear to have advanced, either. Future weapons won't necessarily ''look'' more "advanced" or really be that different from modern ones: whether rounds are fired from a modern rifle or a space railgun, it still functions the same. Precise guides held by a solid external structure are still required to accelerate the projectile. Compare Rock Beats Laser, Boring, but Practical, Modern Stasis and Break Out The Museum Piece. Usually goes hand in hand with Our Weapons Will Be Boxy In The Future. Contrast We Will Use Lasers In The Future, where energy weapons are more prevalent than kinetic weapons.

 

[dunno lah]

Why would laser weapons be weak against organic materials?

Because kinetic weapons are just better...

The story is set in some high-tech and/or futuristic society. There are massive computer networks, sentient robots, and ships that can zip across space with the same amount of effort it takes you to go to the store down the street. Despite all this technology, however, combat isn't all that different. Battle armor may have some gizmos on it, the guns may have higher muzzle velocities and an ammo count greater than the population of several rural communities, war vehicles may be able to do some fancy new tricks, but combat is the same at heart, bullets and shells still rule the battlefield.
If there are energy weapons in the universe, they either are experimental and wracked with issues like overheating and unwanted by-products, or they're horribly disadvantaged with few available shots before a recharge or a new power pack is required. They will often also be the first type of weapon to go wrong; the more complex parts a weapon has the more likely it is to break. The reason for favouring projectiles in fiction is Rule Of Cool — while subjecting stuff to melting or explosive evaporation is cool, broken pieces of the same stuff flying away with a boom may be even better than the mediocre zap of a laser. This does of course have its roots in the fact that Reality Is Unrealistic: serious laser weaponry actually uses short duration pulses with incredibly high energies that would simply explode an object into plasma the same as if it were hit by a high-velocity projectile... but audiences still expect to see Laser Cutters, so we're stuck with them. There are also real world scientific reasons for using projectiles instead of energy weapons, especially against shielded ships. In defending against lasers, the in-universe shields may be extremely effective at re-radiating heat back into space. To stop a projectile, the shield has to decelerate it, and any force applied to the projectile is in turn applied to the shield generator. Mike Wong of Stardestroyer.net does a good job explaining how the strength of even the strongest shield can come down to how well it's attached to the superstructure of the ship. Sometimes kinetic weapons themselves don't appear to have advanced, either. Future weapons won't necessarily ''look'' more "advanced" or really be that different from modern ones: whether rounds are fired from a modern rifle or a space railgun, it still functions the same. Precise guides held by a solid external structure are still required to accelerate the projectile. Compare Rock Beats Laser, Boring, but Practical, Modern Stasis and Break Out The Museum Piece. Usually goes hand in hand with Our Weapons Will Be Boxy In The Future. Contrast We Will Use Lasers In The Future, where energy weapons are more prevalent than kinetic weapons.

Are laser weapons prototypical/weak in WL1? Fallout seems to have ingrained in me some...misconceptions.