Wasteland Wasteland 2 Pre-Release Discussion Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Flacracker]

I think InXile is able to make Wasteland 2 so quickly because they had done a lot of work on it prior to pre-production.

So, they did a pre-pre-production before pre-production? Does it even make sense?

What's a lot of work? A working engine? No. Working systems? No. Areas design? No. Interface and assets? No. All written dialogues? No. They did have some work done before the KS, but from what's been mentioned, it was on a very limited scale. A story draft plus some ideas thrown around. In terms of time saved, its value is very low.

Anyway, as much as I'd love to play WL2 in a few months, I surely hope that they'd delay it for at least 6 months. It's not the kind of game I want done half-assed annd half-assed is all you can do in 18 months.

So how about that Age of Decadence game? I would love that play that in a few months. Huh? Yeah? 2013 release? Please. Oh god please.

 

[Infinitron]

Because more is better?

We'll see how people react to a game that is "good, but small" when Shadowrun Returns is released.

Re: Wasteland 2, it's possible that people expecting a Fallout 2-sized game will be disappointed, although who knows, inXile might end up surprising us.

Fallout 2 maybe not, but i expect at least Fallout size. Anything smaller i thing is too small, unless they make the most reactive and replayable game to date.

Well, we've already seen that it's larger than Fallout by number of areas.

half-assed is all you can do in 18 months.

It's going to be so fun rubbing it in when the game is released, VD.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Never wanted to be wrong so badly.

 

[Horus]

VD as a rpg game developer yourself, could you answer my questions if you have time?
What part of developement process consumes the most time?
How long would it take to test their games to make it nearly bug free after finishing the alpha?
From what i see, they made their own engine. How long would that take for a TB games?
I remember older game developers taking 3-4 years for making games so is there new technological advances that reduced speed of making games since then?







When will you release AOD?

 

[tuluse]

What's a lot of work? A working engine? No. Working systems? No. Areas design? No. Interface and assets? No. All written dialogues? No.

Working engine - well they bought one, so they didn't need to do any work to have a working engine
Working systems - they made 2 RPG-esque games prior to kickstarting Wasteland 2, I'm sure they could reuse some code. Plus, Fargo has been in this business for 25 years, I'm guessing his has some idea how hard and how long it will take to make most of the systems
Interface and assets - meh, the game might be annoying and ugly, but I have live with that
Written dialogs - This one is of the most concern to me, but I suspect this is where the "a lot work done" comes in. They probably had a good idea of what most of the important conversations were going to cover.

I think your experience with Torque and literally building every system from scratch has biased your views on what professionals can do. Neither Sawyer nor Fargo seemed concerned about implementation. They seem 100% occupied with making sure they get design right.

You might be right and Wasteland 2 will just be a shallow RPG-lite, but I think you're exaggerating the difficulty of implementation, while not seeming to worry about the real problems with such a tight design time, which is will they get to add real depth to the world, and will the systems be fun to use.

 

[Infinitron]

while not seeming to worry about the real problems with such a tight design time, which is will they get to add real depth to the world

Actually, that's exactly what VD is concerned about. He thinks an 18 month PE will be Icewind Dale 3 and 18 month W2 will be Wasteland: Tactics.

What I suspect is that he has a poor conception of the design and implementation pipelines used by experienced industry professionals, which allow them to crank out "reactivity" faster and more efficiently than he has with AoD.

 

[tuluse]

3 things in list of 5 concerns were about implementation: working engine, working systems, interface and assets.

 

[Vault Dweller]

VD as a rpg game developer yourself, could you answer my questions if you have time?

Certainly. Keep in mind, that I'm not a professional developer and my own experience doesn't really mean anything. My opinion is based on Tim Cain's quote (he said that it takes at least 3 years to make a full-scale RPG), personal observations (the only decent RPGs that were done in 18 months were straight sequels using existing engines, systems, and assets), and Fargo's track record (2 years for Bard's Tales, 18 months for Hunted).

Maybe Fargo will surprise us and I certainly hope that he will somehow, but Science! teaches us not to put out faith in miracles.

What part of developement process consumes the most time?

I'd say iterations, i.e. the process of turning mediocre into good.

How long would it take to test their games to make it nearly bug free after finishing the alpha?

No idea. Depends on the level of complexity, different paths, choices and consequences - something we know little about. Besides, there could be several different scenarios. Let's say people test and say OMG! It's heavan! Then it's just bug-fixing, which can be done relatively fast. Alternately, people may say 'feature X sucks' (see the reaction to the inventory screen) and this reaction would push InXile to make changes. Then it's a much longer haul.

From what i see, they made their own engine. How long would that take for a TB games?

No. They are working with Unity. The last game that used Unity was Conquistadors, if you need a reference. Overall, Unity's good at getting things to a playable stage fast, but playable and fully working are two different things. Still, I don't think that Unity will hold them back.

I remember older game developers taking 3-4 years for making games so is there new technological advances that reduced speed of making games since then?

There are better tools, so you can make a shitty game faster, but quality, in my humble opinion, always takes time.

 

[Infinitron]

3 things in list of 5 concerns were about implementation: working engine, working systems, interface and assets.

The issue here is implementation of content - scripting. I've a hunch that scripting is something that has become much easier over the years. What was true for Tim Cain (who is a programmer first and game designer second) back in 1995-1997 isn't necessarily true today.

 

[Vault Dweller]

What's a lot of work? A working engine? No. Working systems? No. Areas design? No. Interface and assets? No. All written dialogues? No.

Working engine - well they bought one, so they didn't need to do any work to have a working engine

lol

No, they bought a generic engine. To make it a working engine, it needs to be loaded up with systems: character, combat, stealth, inventory, journal, dialogue, crafting, AI, pathfinding, etc.

Working systems - they made 2 RPG-esque games prior to kickstarting Wasteland 2, I'm sure they could reuse some code. Plus, Fargo has been in this business for 25 years, I'm guessing his has some idea how hard and how long it will take to make most of the systems

He knows what to do, that's for sure, but knowing what to do and having to do it are two different things.

Interface and assets - meh, the game might be annoying and ugly, but I have live with that

Point is, it takes time. Take Kotor 2, for example. Obsidian got the engine, the systems, the tools, the assets, so they focused almost exclusively on content (and the game was still incomplete and buggy).

I think your experience with Torque and literally building every system from scratch has biased your views on what professionals can do. Neither Sawyer nor Fargo seemed concerned about implementation. They seem 100% occupied with making sure they get design right.

I'm not naive enough to think that my experience is everyone's experience. So, again, my opinion is based on a simple fact that not a single decent, full scale RPG was produced in 18 months. I want to believe Fargo, I really do, but faith in miracles isn't my strongest suit.

You might be right and Wasteland 2 will just be a shallow RPG-lite...

I certainly hope not. I hope that Fargo will take his time to do it right.

... but I think you're exaggerating the difficulty of implementation, while not seeming to worry about the real problems with such a tight design time, which is will they get to add real depth to the world, and will the systems be fun to use.

That's exactly what I worry about.

 

[Vault Dweller]

What I suspect is that he has a poor conception of the design and implementation pipelines used by experienced industry professionals, which allow them to crank out "reactivity" faster and more efficiently than he has with AoD.

Then why did Bard's Tales and Hunted took so long?

 

[Gakkone]

I think your experience with Torque and literally building every system from scratch has biased your views on what professionals can do. Neither Sawyer nor Fargo seemed concerned about implementation. They seem 100% occupied with making sure they get design right.

I'm not naive enough to think that my experience is everyone's experience. So, again, my opinion is based on a simple fact that not a single decent, full scale RPG was produced in 18 months. I want to believe Fargo, I really do, but faith in miracles isn't my strongest suit.

How about having faith in Tim Cain who's working on PE on a similar time scale?

 

[Infinitron]

What I suspect is that he has a poor conception of the design and implementation pipelines used by experienced industry professionals, which allow them to crank out "reactivity" faster and more efficiently than he has with AoD.

Then why did Bard's Tales and Hunted took so long?

First of all, Bard's Tale was the first effort of a new developer. So there might have been a "start-up time" factor.

Hunted was a scripted over the shoulder 3D action game for consoles, and neither you nor Tim Cain have much clue what kind of time it takes to make such a game.

Both of the games had external dependencies - publishers, milestones, voice acting, etc.

 

[tuluse]

3 things in list of 5 concerns were about implementation: working engine, working systems, interface and assets.

The issue here is implementation of content - scripting. I've a hunch that scripting is something that has become much easier over the years. What was true for Tim Cain (who is a programmer first and game designer second) back in 1995-1997 isn't necessarily true today.

I think code these days is much more modular. When Tim Cain wanted dialog in Fallout he probably had to write it from scratch. These days an RPG studio would have a dialog library and it would take far less time to integrate it with a new engine than creating one from scratch.

Evidence: This is what Obsidian said they did with Fallout New Vegas

 

[Horus]

Is there a possibility that they might be rushing because of KS? They might be feeling that community feedback would be lot harsher if they took their time.(Publishers might be easier to handle)
I think it would be interesting if they released an beta version in october for some part of the KS community.(If they aren't planning of doing this ofc) That would calm down user base if there were any problems.

 

[Infinitron]

Is there a possibility that they might be rushing because of KS? They might be feeling that community feedback would be lot harsher if they took their time.(Publishers might be easier to handle)
I think it would be interesting if they released an beta version in october for some part of the KS community.(If they aren't planning of doing this ofc) That would calm down user base if there were any problems.

There's already a beta planned for release in July or August.

I don't believe the Kickstarter crowd will care about a two month delay. Publishers are definitely not easier to handle since they need to pay for those delays.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I think your experience with Torque and literally building every system from scratch has biased your views on what professionals can do. Neither Sawyer nor Fargo seemed concerned about implementation. They seem 100% occupied with making sure they get design right.

I'm not naive enough to think that my experience is everyone's experience. So, again, my opinion is based on a simple fact that not a single decent, full scale RPG was produced in 18 months. I want to believe Fargo, I really do, but faith in miracles isn't my strongest suit.

How about having faith in Tim Cain who's working on PE on a similar time scale?

Like I said, not big one faith. The thing is, we don't know what the actual plans are. For example, it's possible that 18 months was chosen not because it's a realistic target but because it appeals more to the backers, sorta like 19.99 seems cheaper than 20. Make it 2 years and people will grow more skeptical and pay less upfront. Make it 1.5 years and it's like we're almost there. So, with Torment's revenues, inXile can definitely afford to take their time and then boost Torment with WL2 revenues.

Obsidian can easily make an IWD-like game without disappointing too many people and release it in 18 months. What bugs me is all the extra shit that's been added, which - quite magically - didn't seem to affect the timeframe at all. So, we gonna make this game we have no clue about yet in 18 months, but since you guys gave us so much money, we'll throw in another big city, a mega-dungeon, and a stronghold, yeah, all in the same 18 months. New tools weed, man ... makes all the difference.

 

[Gakkone]

Is there a possibility that they might be rushing because of KS? They might be feeling that community feedback would be lot harsher if they took their time.(Publishers might be easier to handle)
I think it would be interesting if they released an beta version in october for some part of the KS community.(If they aren't planning of doing this ofc) That would calm down user base if there were any problems.

I'd guess the only real pressure they have is budgetary, at some point they simply can't afford to keep working on it.

 

[Horus]

There's already a beta planned for release in July or August.

I don't believe the Kickstarter crowd will care about a two month delay. Publishers are definitely not easier to handle since they need to pay for those delays.

I guess it depends on the publisher and the crowd in question. RPG crowd is generally more older and have more patience but i see it as a long term problem in other KS genres.
You could convince your publishers as they are 5-10 people but it's a lot harder to convince 10-20 thousand people.

 

[Infinitron]

which - quite magically - didn't seem to affect the timeframe at all.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...rviewed-about-project-eternity-by-vgbr.83793/

 

[Davaris]

I think code these days is much more modular. When Tim Cain wanted dialog in Fallout he probably had to write it from scratch. These days an RPG studio would have a dialog library and it would take far less time to integrate it with a new engine than creating one from scratch.

Programming and scripting have come a long way since 1997. Things like behavior trees have made scripting a lot easier. I had my doubts about the project, until I saw how much they achieved in one month. I don't know what they are using for AI, as they haven't said so that I know of, but there are a lot of off the shelf tools you can buy with Unity. If those tools are good, it will speed the process a great deal.

 

[Brother None]

Yeah, Unity's a joy. At this point the game is in alpha-ish state, so we're doing pretty well, but getting it right is more important than any deadline, so if beta feedback is awful or if we want to keep adding reactivity we can and would delay. It just depends. Bit early to say now, we're still tracking well.

Is there a possibility that they might be rushing because of KS? They might be feeling that community feedback would be lot harsher if they took their time.(Publishers might be easier to handle)
I think it would be interesting if they released an beta version in october for some part of the KS community.(If they aren't planning of doing this ofc) That would calm down user base if there were any problems.

No, quite the opposute. Publishers would be on our asses the entire time. If we hit delays we'll just explain the how and why of it to the fans and I honestly expect them to be quite reasonable about it. All the feedback we've had so far is "take your time" and "get it right", not "release it asap". As Gakkone said, the main limiting factor here is budgetary, but we've been very fortunate in having a really good Kickstarter budget supplemented by other incomes such as The Bard's Tale, so if we need to delay, we can.

PS: Torment money is not going to Wasteland 2.

 

[tuluse]

Is there a possibility that they might be rushing because of KS? They might be feeling that community feedback would be lot harsher if they took their time.(Publishers might be easier to handle)
I think it would be interesting if they released an beta version in october for some part of the KS community.(If they aren't planning of doing this ofc) That would calm down user base if there were any problems.

I think the pressures of releasing on time are exactly the opposite of what you've described.

However, the big difference here is that with a kickstarter you have a set budget, there is no asking for extensions(*)(**).

*Yeah there is that space game that did two kickstarters, so there are exceptions, but those are precisely exceptions not the rule
**nb4 people say the Torment money is going into Wasteland 2

 

[Rake]

which - quite magically - didn't seem to affect the timeframe at all.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...rviewed-about-project-eternity-by-vgbr.83793/

Also it's not dificult to afford more time. They said 1 million bought 18 months. They have 4 times that budget, but they won't have 4 times a bigger team. They could have keep the same team and afford 4 times the timeframe. Obviously they won't do thae game it 4 years and they have a bigger team, but it wouldn't surprise me if both Obsidian and inXile can afford a 6month delay only with kickstarter funds without putting additional money from their pockets

 

[Horus]

I just wish they will took all time they need. I rather wait 6-12 months or whatever it takes instead of playing another flawed gem.