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[thesisko]

Proven wrong how? I'm pretty sure that NWN2 sold over a million copies, not 60-70,000 copies.

It might have sold around a million, but I doubt it was much more. I haven't seen any official figures, other than this press release from 2007 and judging by the wording, I think it's likely that the original NWN+expansions was responsible for the bulk of the 3M figure.

 

[Infinitron]

Proven wrong how? I'm pretty sure that NWN2 sold over a million copies, not 60-70,000 copies.

It might have sold around a million, but I doubt it was much more. I haven't seen any official figures, other than this press release from 2007 and judging by the wording, I think it's likely that the original NWN+expansions was responsible for the bulk of the 3M figure.

Meh, this isn't really the point. The numbers aren't what matters.

The success of the Kickstarters should be regarded as an indicator of the general level of interest from the RPG fanbase in titles like these. A level of interest that Nathaniel Chapman and his ilk did not believe was there.

 

[St. Toxic]

I certainly wouldn't help in funding NWN2.

 

[thesisko]

The success of the Kickstarters should be regarded as an indicator of the general level of interest from the RPG fanbase in titles like these. A level of interest that Nathaniel Chapman and his ilk did not believe was there.

True, it's not like he said "Well, we could probably sell 500K if we did an old-school RPG on PC...". He was more like "LOL, why would anyone want to play an old-fart game like PS:T now that we have Skyrim?".

 

[Lhynn]

I certainly wouldn't help in funding NWN2.

Even if that meant missing out on mask of the betrayer?

 

[St. Toxic]

Mask of the what?

 

[tuluse]

No, because it's an indie game (I made a disclaimer earlier) and because it's an experiment, but I can guarantee you that Project Eternity will sell 500k easily.

This is more about the goodwill that Obsidian has built up over the years than really anything about the game itself (also RTwP which you said sells better than TB).

Fargo hasn't been involved with a good RPG since Planescape: Torment in 1999. He very well could have thought that no one cared about what he and InXile were making. And honestly, no one gave a fuck about InXile. Goodwill is a fickle beast, it's hard to measure and hard to capitalize on. I think it a very reasonable assumption on Fargo's part that no one really cared about what he did 15-30 years ago with some company that's only still in business because of dark French necromantic arts.

 

[Lhynn]

Mask of the what?

thats a no then.

 

[Drowed]

Several factors at once:
- the rise of digital distribution, which cut both the need to have a publisher and the upfront cost (packaging, shipping, etc)
- big budget titles becoming too big and too risky. If you need to sell 2 mil copies just to break even, then all is not well in the gaming industry. It forces developers and publishers to revisit the concept of 'smaller games for smaller profit', which is a win for us.
- KS: cash for promises

While I do agree with your points, the boom of turn-based games (not only RPGs) began about two years ago (counting from the announcements) while the situation you describe already exists for, arguably, three times that - maybe more. And as I said, many turn-based games are being made without the use kickstarter as well. So for these other companies, it makes little sense to wait that long. If they could ever be doing the games since before, it still doesn't seems plausible that many companies "coincidentally" decided to do something at the same time.

 

[felipepepe]

The success of the Kickstarters should be regarded as an indicator of the general level of interest from the RPG fanbase in titles like these. A level of interest that Nathaniel Chapman and his ilk did not believe was there.

Bro, the kickstarter raw numbers aren't that impressive. W2 has fucking 61k backers... wow. Meanwhile, Legend of Grimrock sold more than 600k copies. There was never any doubt that the audience was there. You won't blow anyone's mind with that. Besides, can you accurately say how many it will actually sell, besides backers? If you don't trust the market, it could be just 100k, it's a niche game after all.

But it was a risky endeavor that won't pay as much as NU-Call of Duty, so publishers weren't interested. Backers numbers & "proving there was a market" won't change anyone's mind, what REALLY matters is offering 3 Million dollars upfront, with no strings attached. Think about that, the game is already paid for, and they own 100% of it, with no need to pay any money back. If W2 sells 500k copies at $20, that's 10 Million dollars into inXile's pocket. No filthy publisher to take away the lion's share and their IP. Fargo can fund W3, 4 and 5 just with the money from moderate W2 sales.

 

[drae]

Both developers and publishers believed their games would be "lost in bargain bins" if they didn't crank out a high budget AAA production.

The point is, like it or not, the viability of CRPG projects of this caliber needed to be proved (or rather, re-proved). It was proved by tens of thousands of fans putting their money up front on Kickstarter. Not before.

Indeed, I'd brofist you if I could.

According to Avellone, kickstarter has finally made publishers sit up and take notice.

"These Kickstarters for RPGs have been really successful, they have garnered more backer support and more funding than many had thought, and we have noticed that publishers have paid attention to that and they are aware of the success these projects have had," Chris Avellone explained.

"We have actually had companies reach out to us and go 'you know what, for that price point, which is a much smaller risk than a lot of our AAA titles where there's a lot more at stake, that's much less risk for us and we wouldn't mind exploring the idea of doing old-school RPGs that are set up like this'. That totally floors me, I did not realise there would be that sort of sea change from publishers, but apparently there are a number of publishers that realise that doing an Eternity-style game is a good fit for them, and I am thankful for that."

http://www.strategyinformer.com/new...ol-rpgs-because-of-the-success-of-kickstarter

 

[Infinitron]

Bro, the kickstarter raw numbers aren't that impressive.

Didn't I just say it's not about the numbers? 4 million dollars upfront, repeated three times over the course of a year (W2, PE, ToN), is a sign of great fan interest, period.

Nothing was obvious about that. RPGs could just as easily have ended up with the same weaksauce success on Kickstarter that adventure games did. But they didn't.

 

[Excidium]

I'm unsure if they revealed the distance that it's impossible to use a sniper rifle - if it's low enough, I really have no complaints.

I agree, if the distance is low enough.
If sniper rifles work like Roguey says (quote below), I don't have a problem with it. Seems fine and realistic enough.

BN said you can't use a sniper rifle at all against any foe in an adjacent square. Anything farther than that is fine, though there's still an accuracy penalty

It wasn't about realism, it's just that "no you can't do that because no" is p. bad RPG design. Instead it should give a really harsh penalty for trying to fire a sniper rifle at an adjacent enemies. Shouldn't be impossible, just really unlikely to go well. Shouldn't be just sniper rifles either, it should be a penalty based on weapon size.

 

[Lady_Error]

According to Avellone, kickstarter has finally made publishers sit up and take notice.

"These Kickstarters for RPGs have been really successful, they have garnered more backer support and more funding than many had thought, and we have noticed that publishers have paid attention to that and they are aware of the success these projects have had," Chris Avellone explained.

"We have actually had companies reach out to us and go 'you know what, for that price point, which is a much smaller risk than a lot of our AAA titles where there's a lot more at stake, that's much less risk for us and we wouldn't mind exploring the idea of doing old-school RPGs that are set up like this'. That totally floors me, I did not realise there would be that sort of sea change from publishers, but apparently there are a number of publishers that realise that doing an Eternity-style game is a good fit for them, and I am thankful for that."

http://www.strategyinformer.com/new...ol-rpgs-because-of-the-success-of-kickstarter

That IS very encouraging news. So the Ubisoft MMX may not have been just an exception.

 

[Roguey]

It wasn't about realism, it's just that "no you can't do that because no" is p. bad RPG design. Instead it should give a really harsh penalty for trying to fire a sniper rifle at an adjacent enemies. Shouldn't be impossible, just really unlikely to go well. Shouldn't be just sniper rifles either, it should be a penalty based on weapon size.

The harsh penalty is a 0% chance to hit.

Even the 10% from a couple of spaces away is low enough to make me never want to take those chances.

 

[felipepepe]

BTW, does W2 allows you to equip two weapons at once, like in Fallout? Looking at the inventory UI from their previous demo, it seems to have 2 weapon slots...

 

[Grunker]

Proven wrong how? I'm pretty sure that NWN2 sold over a million copies, not 60-70,000 copies.

It might have sold around a million, but I doubt it was much more. I haven't seen any official figures, other than this press release from 2007 and judging by the wording, I think it's likely that the original NWN+expansions was responsible for the bulk of the 3M figure.

Meh, this isn't really the point. The numbers aren't what matters.

The success of the Kickstarters should be regarded as an indicator of the general level of interest from the RPG fanbase in titles like these. A level of interest that Nathaniel Chapman and his ilk did not believe was there.

Bingo. That's the central element I take away from Kickstarter as well. There's this narrative that publishers do what's good for business, and Kickstarter is a way to circumvent that, but the reality is that publishers make mistakes and get caught in paradigms. The last ten years the business paradigm was that people want simplicity and linearity and cutscenes, but just because the main bulk of the industry believe that, it doesn't mean it is true.

I've given the example before that I have a friend who LOVES complex P&P systems and can stay up all night debating the complex system mechanics of GURPS into the details, but when I asked him one day in an unrelated conversation whether he had played The Witcher 2, he said "nah man, I'm not a big fan of arbitrary complexity in video games, I can't be arsed to sit down and read up how the system in those RPGs work." And I was just baffled. TW2 is fucking simplicity incarnated. And at the same time, this guy can't wait for the new Torment. It makes no sense. But he's caught up in the paradigm. People tell him 'streamlined video games are good, complex video games are bad.' That's the truth. And for someone who just video games casually, why should it be challenged?

That's how these things work, that's how a population of geeks who love complex games hate complexity in video games, and how publisher's become convinced they can't sell anything but.

Judged on recent developments, perhaps some people in the business are waking up to that fact, but the problem is more deeply rooted than this. I.e. most publisher are dependent on the paradigm because they've constructed business models and development teams and experience bases and engines that all rely on games being simplistic and broad. They can't simply reverse that development even if they begin to realize that perhaps they were a bit wrong.

That's part of the reason why companies like THQ go bankrupt, I think.

 

[Monty]

The last ten years the business paradigm was that people want simplicity and linearity and cutscenes, but just because the main bulk of the industry believe that, it doesn't mean it is true.

And perhaps 75% of the market does prefer this sort of game, so the industry focused on that, but kickstarter is showing the possibilities of serving the other 25% - including older gamers prepared to spend quite a bit on kickstarters etc.

 

[undecaf]

The last ten years the business paradigm was that people want simplicity and linearity and cutscenes, but just because the main bulk of the industry believe that, it doesn't mean it is true.

And perhaps 75% of the market does prefer this sort of game, so the industry focused on that, but kickstarter is showing the possibilities of serving the other 25% - including older gamers prepared to spend quite a bit on kickstarters etc.

I guess it could be worth a shot finding out whether or not some of that 75% estimate of yours would be "Ok" or at least interested enough to give a shot at something more if the production values were at the right place. Many people are omnivorous in this regard, but it seems to me that since there hasn't been enough supply, those more varied and less vocal about their appetites might've become indifferent about the subject, and perhaps partially led into thinking that games inherently mean obsolete tech and obsolete everything -- everyone remembers the debates at 2007 when the common consensus in certain parts of the interwebz was that making Fallout 3 a mechanically faithful sequel to the series would mean "ugly 2D sprites from the 90's and decade old clunkiness" (that spirit is still alive and well for some).

 

[Grunker]

The last ten years the business paradigm was that people want simplicity and linearity and cutscenes, but just because the main bulk of the industry believe that, it doesn't mean it is true.

And perhaps 75% of the market does prefer this sort of game, so the industry focused on that, but kickstarter is showing the possibilities of serving the other 25% - including older gamers prepared to spend quite a bit on kickstarters etc.

I guess it could be worth a shot finding out whether or not some of that 75% estimate of yours would be "Ok" or at least interested enough to give a shot at something more

Neo X-COM shows that they are. I know it's not exactly on par with Codex standards, but a turn-based, squad-based tactical game did insanely well and was praised across media platforms, and is still played enough to warrant a full-fledged expansion. Meanwhile some obscure company makes an obscure square-dance successor to an old game and the shit sells like it was tits and coke (Grimrock).

There is no need for "finding out anymore." If the production values are there (as on X-COM and Grimrock), people are more than willing to try out a broad category of shit. Not the casual sportsguy playing FIFA and CoD only, of course, but you don't need him to turn a profit.

 

[undecaf]

The last ten years the business paradigm was that people want simplicity and linearity and cutscenes, but just because the main bulk of the industry believe that, it doesn't mean it is true.

And perhaps 75% of the market does prefer this sort of game, so the industry focused on that, but kickstarter is showing the possibilities of serving the other 25% - including older gamers prepared to spend quite a bit on kickstarters etc.

I guess it could be worth a shot finding out whether or not some of that 75% estimate of yours would be "Ok" or at least interested enough to give a shot at something more

Neo X-COM shows that they are. I know it's not exactly on par with Codex standards, but a turn-based, squad-based tactical game did insanely well and was praised across media platforms, and is still played enough to warrant a full-fledged expansion. Meanwhile some obscure company makes an obscure square-dance successor to an old game and the shit sells like it was tits and coke (Grimrock).

There is no need for "finding out anymore." If the production values are there (as on X-COM and Grimrock), people are more than willing to try out a broad category of shit. Not the casual sportsguy playing FIFA and CoD only, of course, but you don't need him to turn a profit.

Yes, that's true - funnily enough, I didn't remember (or register) either while writing my post.