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MjKorz

Educated
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Jul 11, 2022
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530
Making the Concentration limit a hard 1 in 5E is a missed opportunity.

Wiz could get a familiar/homunculus at lvl 6 that concentrates on one spell while the caster concentrates on another or you could upcast any concentration spell by 3 lvls to make it no longer require concentration or whatever.
Yeah, a hard limit of 1, without ways to expend it is a bit harsh.

Also greatly lowers the value of most Concentration spells - and makes the value of non-Concentration spells skyrocket.


Edit: I still think its a good direction, only some allowances should have been made - a feat and/or subclass (like Desiderius' suggestion) that increases the limit. Maybe even some item that can "hold" an active spell.
I think a top limit of about 3 Concentration spells active could be just about right overall.
Specialist Wizards should get 1 free concentration for their school of choice. This way a Conjurer, for example, could cast Evard's Black Tentacles (free concentration) and then buff a melee character with Haste or envelop everyone caught in the tentacles via Cloudkill (Haste/Cloudkill expend the 1 concentration everyone has).
 

Yosharian

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That would make Sorcerers, and all other casters, absolute shit compared to Wizards, which are already the most powerful caster class in PNP
 

Haplo

Prophet
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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
That would make Sorcerers, and all other casters, absolute shit compared to Wizards, which are already the most powerful caster class in PNP
Well, right now the wizards are generally rather shitty as pure casters compared with Sorceres in BG3.
 

Haplo

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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire

Abundant spells are worthless on Nenio, because when properly built she will be reliably disabling even the hardest unfair encounters with one spell and you already get more than enough spells in chapter 3:
7jef3z.jpg

As a DC caster, Nenio should be using her Mythic Feats to stack 5 Expanded Arsenals for 5 different schools and her Mythic Abilities to get school-specific synergy (e.g. best Jokes for Enchantment, Corruptor for Conjuration) and Favorite Metamagics.
A lot of cheese here. I don't think stacking Exapanded Arsenal is intentional. For that matter, I don't think Evil Eye stacking is intentional.
 

MjKorz

Educated
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That would make Sorcerers, and all other casters, absolute shit compared to Wizards, which are already the most powerful caster class in PNP
Sorcerers already get metamagics which wizards for some retarded reason do not. Sorcerers can already use twin spell metamagic to cast Haste on two targets. WHAT WERE THEY THINKING!?

A lot of cheese here. I don't think stacking Exapanded Arsenal is intentional. For that matter, I don't think Evil Eye stacking is intentional.
It just werks.
 

Dishonoredbr

Erudite
Joined
Jun 13, 2019
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2,442
Making the Concentration limit a hard 1 in 5E is a missed opportunity.

Wiz could get a familiar/homunculus at lvl 6 that concentrates on one spell while the caster concentrates on another or you could upcast any concentration spell by 3 lvls to make it no longer require concentration or whatever.
Honestly i really disliked Concentration. It was so limiting to play as Druid and most buff were simply not worth casting.

It might be boring to pre buff , but I take that over having concentration and be so limited.
 

Yosharian

Arcane
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That would make Sorcerers, and all other casters, absolute shit compared to Wizards, which are already the most powerful caster class in PNP
Sorcerers already get metamagics which wizards for some retarded reason do not. Sorcerers can already use twin spell metamagic to cast Haste on two targets. WHAT WERE THEY THINKING!?

And yet Wizards are still much stronger

Your idea suggests that you don't have much experience with PNP, no offence
 

thesecret1

Arcane
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Niche concentration spells that could be useful in certain tactical scenarios become useless since they simply cannot compete with the top general purpose ones like Haste.
Can you elaborate on why Haste in particular seems so great? If we're talking 5e, it's +2 to AC, which is nice, and an extra weapon attack, which is also nice. But neither seems like a must-have.
 

MjKorz

Educated
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Niche concentration spells that could be useful in certain tactical scenarios become useless since they simply cannot compete with the top general purpose ones like Haste.
Can you elaborate on why Haste in particular seems so great? If we're talking 5e, it's +2 to AC, which is nice, and an extra weapon attack, which is also nice. But neither seems like a must-have.
It's good when you have a balanced party with a dedicated damage dealer like a Champion with a two-hander or a Paladin.

Also, it's a general purpose spell that is good in literally every encounter and carries no risk of failure besides concentration break which applies to any other competing concentration spell anyway. You can't go wrong with using it so any niche offensive concentration spell carrying a possibility of failure that tries to compete with Haste has to offer dramatically more benefit in a particular tactical scenario and scenarios like that are rare.
 
Last edited:

ERYFKRAD

Barbarian
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Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Niche concentration spells that could be useful in certain tactical scenarios become useless since they simply cannot compete with the top general purpose ones like Haste.
Can you elaborate on why Haste in particular seems so great? If we're talking 5e, it's +2 to AC, which is nice, and an extra weapon attack, which is also nice. But neither seems like a must-have.
+2 to ac and an extra attack and also more movement. Makes already good frontliners very good.
 

Haplo

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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Niche concentration spells that could be useful in certain tactical scenarios become useless since they simply cannot compete with the top general purpose ones like Haste.
Can you elaborate on why Haste in particular seems so great? If we're talking 5e, it's +2 to AC, which is nice, and an extra weapon attack, which is also nice. But neither seems like a must-have.
In BG3, its also another Action that can be used for a 2nd spell/ability in a round.

Outside of Honor mode, that action actually allows a 2nd full attack (so +3 attacks in case of Figher 11+ or martial Blade Warlock multiclasses).
 

thesecret1

Arcane
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+2 to ac and an extra attack and also more movement. Makes already good frontliners very good.
Yeah, it's no doubt useful, but doesn't seem like something you would always pick 100% of the time. There are many other concentration spells that can prove better, depending kn the circumstance

In BG3, its also another Action that can be used for a 2nd spell/ability in a round.
Then that's Larian going against RAW
 

MjKorz

Educated
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Messages
530
+2 to ac and an extra attack and also more movement. Makes already good frontliners very good.
Yeah, it's no doubt useful, but doesn't seem like something you would always pick 100% of the time. There are many other concentration spells that can prove better, depending kn the circumstance
Keyword: can, but not guaranteed. Haste always works, always provides a massive benefit with a party composition that has a dedicated melee damage dealer. Even for casters it's extremely useful as they can haste and throw more damage spells per round (I played BG3 on launch on tactician and have no idea what changes Larian have introduced in their newest updates). Stacking spell DC to a point where you beat enemy saves 95% of the time is non-trivial in 5e due to the "bounded accuracy" design philosophy, although BG3 has very good itemization for DC casters. Still, even if you can reach 95% success rate on your disabling spells, you still get extra roadblocks like legendary wards. Meanwhile: Haste just works. Always.
 

thesecret1

Arcane
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Messages
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+2 to ac and an extra attack and also more movement. Makes already good frontliners very good.
Yeah, it's no doubt useful, but doesn't seem like something you would always pick 100% of the time. There are many other concentration spells that can prove better, depending kn the circumstance
Keyword: can, but not guaranteed. Haste always works, always provides a massive benefit with a party composition that has a dedicated melee damage dealer. Even for casters it's extremely useful as they can haste and throw more damage spells per round (I played BG3 on launch on tactician and have no idea what changes Larian have introduced in their newest updates). Stacking spell DC to a point where you beat enemy saves 95% of the time is non-trivial in 5e due to the "bounded accuracy" design philosophy, although BG3 has very good itemization for DC casters. Still, even if you can reach 95% success rate on your disabling spells, you still get extra roadblocks like legendary wards. Meanwhile: Haste just works. Always.
But if they can be better, then it's not true that "Niche concentration spells that could be useful in certain tactical scenarios become useless since they simply cannot compete with the top general purpose ones like Haste." It's not like you can only have one conc spell in your spell list
 

MjKorz

Educated
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Jul 11, 2022
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530
+2 to ac and an extra attack and also more movement. Makes already good frontliners very good.
Yeah, it's no doubt useful, but doesn't seem like something you would always pick 100% of the time. There are many other concentration spells that can prove better, depending kn the circumstance
Keyword: can, but not guaranteed. Haste always works, always provides a massive benefit with a party composition that has a dedicated melee damage dealer. Even for casters it's extremely useful as they can haste and throw more damage spells per round (I played BG3 on launch on tactician and have no idea what changes Larian have introduced in their newest updates). Stacking spell DC to a point where you beat enemy saves 95% of the time is non-trivial in 5e due to the "bounded accuracy" design philosophy, although BG3 has very good itemization for DC casters. Still, even if you can reach 95% success rate on your disabling spells, you still get extra roadblocks like legendary wards. Meanwhile: Haste just works. Always.
But if they can be better, then it's not true that "Niche concentration spells that could be useful in certain tactical scenarios become useless since they simply cannot compete with the top general purpose ones like Haste." It's not like you can only have one conc spell in your spell list
That was in reference to the "many cases" mentioned in the previous sentence of the same post. Other concentration spells can be better in particular tactical scenarios, but there has to be a very strong reason to make them objectively superior or at least competitive and that is a problem when competing against a universally useful spell that provides amazing benefit.

For example, I refused to submit to Jaheira when encountering her for the first time in Last Light and fought her along with all of her supporters in the immediate vicinity of the bridge. In that case, I dropped Evard's Black Tentacles to prevent the huge group of enemies from overwhelming me and keep them trickling in manageable numbers instead. Haste wouldn't have helped as much due to a very high number of enemies that could be controlled:
cu35r8.jpg
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Idk, seems kind of boring on top of everything else. Guess I’m spoiled by the expectation of AoE Haste. I just focus on what my Arcane Caster is good at (controlling or Witch Bolting Wet stuff or whatever) and get extra attax from Bloodlust Elixir and the like.
 

Supermedo

Augur
Joined
Apr 12, 2013
Messages
338
I promised myself to wait until the year's end to buy Warhammer, but the Voidfarer Edition is available for $38 in my region from GMG. On a scale of one to ten, with one being completely broken, how bug-ridden is the game?
 

Aarwolf

Learned
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Dec 15, 2020
Messages
572
I promised myself to wait until the year's end to buy Warhammer, but the Voidfarer Edition is available for $38 in my region from GMG. On a scale of one to ten, with one being completely broken, how bug-ridden is the game?

For now it's about 6/10, but there is a new DLC ahead, and that's Owlcat, so it will be 4/10 at best after that.
 

ga♥

Arcane
Vatnik
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Feb 3, 2017
Messages
8,079
6/10 is too harsh. Never had to use toybox to fix anything.
Rumors (they are not even quests) were broken though but not a big deal.
I would say 7.5/10 on the bugs.
 

scytheavatar

Scholar
Joined
Sep 22, 2016
Messages
691
PoE/Deadfire tries to solve this by only allowing buffs in combat

Which is RIDICULOUS. And lead monsters to lose a lot of interesting abilities.

Imo if the party is in a undead crypt, spells like negative plane protection are a necessity. If is fine for a group to buy antidote before going into a poisonous swamp, why casting magical protection against poisons isn't fine? If you take it out from pcs, poison end up being less powerful as they can't protect themselves from it. You end up punishing preparation and makes no sense.

In wh40k Owlcat could have made having too much buffs from psyker being too dangerous to be worthy using endless buffs.
It's not ridiculous when the buffs have short duration which they do in PoE. You want to cast them precisely at the moment they're needed to maximize their usefulness and avoid wasting any of their brief duration which is measured in dozens of seconds at best.
Too high a cost in action econ. Some interesting tactics involved in letting fight come to you but overall an overcorrect.
That's the whole point. Buffs should not be free power, if they are then there's no reason not to use them and they are too OP. Buffs then become ticking a checklist before combat starts rather than something with tactical consideration. If buffs have a cost and there are reasons not to use them then there would actually be depth and meaning in the use of buffs.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
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It's not ridiculous when the buffs have short duration which they do in PoE. You want to cast them precisely at the moment they're needed to maximize their usefulness and avoid wasting any of their brief duration which is measured in dozens of seconds at best.
Too high a cost in action econ. Some interesting tactics involved in letting fight come to you but overall an overcorrect.
That's the whole point. Buffs should not be free power, if they are then there's no reason not to use them and they are too OP. Buffs then become ticking a checklist before combat starts rather than something with tactical consideration. If buffs have a cost and there are reasons not to use them then there would actually be depth and meaning in the use of buffs.

Consistency of lore and mechanics >>>>> "tactics".

This obsession with balance and gamey stuff lead to the creation of 4e and 4e clones everywhere.
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
5,428
This obsession with balance and gamey stuff lead to the creation of 4e and 4e clones everywhere.
But he is right - not having a cost means this choice is superior to any other. It's like having a free move: why would you not want it? And how do you provide something of equal value to make this a choice and not a no-brainer? In order to make builds interesting, they have to offer something, instead of being noob traps.
 

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