Warhammer Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader - turn-based Warhammer 40k RPG from Owlcat Games - now with Void Shadows DLC

[Haplo]

I have 5000 hours in Owlcat games. Here is a 50 page essay about why they sucks.

A Tldr version of your post.

Only a nitpick about the homebrew stuff. I liked some homebrew stuff on wotr. Like shadowcaster.

About rt, I agree 100% with your critique. But I am waiting for someone to fix the gamea

Would be nice. I'm holding my playtrough until there's some decent mod... or a hell lof of balance patching.

 

[MjKorz]

And they completely butchered Shadowcaster by making its Profane INT bonus not stack with the Profane Ascension buff.

There is still a lot of cool stuff in a class, besides profane ascension only comes in late chapter 3, you still benefit from increased int before ch3.

The problem with the Shadowcaster is that it loses 5 feats for what ends up to be absolutely zero benefit since you get Profane Ascension that replaces the Umbral Mind Profane INT bonus and its other features like Shadowy Specialization, Shadowsight and Summon Shadow are utterly worthless. The only good class feature it has is the Shadowform for the untyped +2 INT bonus, but you get it only at level 20 in chapter 5 when the game's pretty much over and even then it's nowhere near worth the loss of 5 bonus feats since those feats can be used to setup the whole Dispel feat suite (Dispel Focus + Greater Dispel Focus + Dispel Synergy + Destructive Dispel) which will massively increase your effective spell DC due to allowing the removal of enemy save buffs and debuffing their saves by -2 via Dispel Synergy. You can't get everything you might want on a DC caster with 10 measly feats the Shadowcaster gets.

Owlclowns could've made the Shadowcaster an interesting class by allowing it to reach 120% corporeality on Shadow spells against opponents who fail the additional Will save, something that was proposed to them many times over on the Steam forums, but, of course, they always ignore their playerbase when they're not too busy outright shitting on them.

 

[Yosharian]

The bigger issue here is that Profane Ascension really ought to be gated behind the most extremely evil playthroughs. You are dedicating yourself to the first Succubus to have ever existed for fuck's sake. One that becomes an actual GOD later.

For the record this is what standard Succubi are able to do to beings affected by their Profane Gift:

Once per day as a full-round action, a succubus may grant a profane gift to a willing humanoid creature by touching it for 1 full round. The target gains a +2 profane bonus to an ability score of his choice. A single creature may have no more than one profane gift from a succubus at a time. As long as the profane gift persists, the succubus can communicate telepathically with the target across any distance (and may use her suggestion spell-like ability through it). A profane gift is removed by dispel evil or dispel chaos. The succubus can remove it as well as a free action (causing 2d6 Charisma drain to the victim, no save).

So you are subject to at-will Suggestions and if she removes it you get CHA-drained. For Noct herself, she should basically be able to Dominate you at-will if you accept her gift. And if she removes it, you should probably just get completely wrecked.

Your companions, if they are not Chaotic Evil themselves, should almost certainly leave your party immediately and/or try to attack you. Regill for example should immediately attack you no questions asked. Instead, here's what happens: a few companions whine a bit. A tumbleweed sweeps across the screen. That's it. There are literally no consequences except for the ones that 'role-playing' dorks imagine in their own heads.

The issue here is getting a free Profane bonus to your best stats for zero cost. If that wasn't in the game, this Profane bonus that Shadowcaster gets would be decent, and Owlcat wouldn't have to balance every class around the fact that Profane bonuses are useless unless they stack with Noct's Ascension.

But that's Owlcat's approach to everything in this game, throw tons of consequence-free shit at the player such as insanely powerful mythic abilities, ridiculous items that make BG2's worst offenders look like children's toys, etc

 

[MjKorz]

The bigger issue here is that Profane Ascension really ought to be gated behind the most extremely evil playthroughs. You are dedicating yourself to the first Succubus to have ever existed for fuck's sake. One that becomes an actual GOD later.

For the record this is what standard Succubi are able to do to beings affected by their Profane Gift:

Once per day as a full-round action, a succubus may grant a profane gift to a willing humanoid creature by touching it for 1 full round. The target gains a +2 profane bonus to an ability score of his choice. A single creature may have no more than one profane gift from a succubus at a time. As long as the profane gift persists, the succubus can communicate telepathically with the target across any distance (and may use her suggestion spell-like ability through it). A profane gift is removed by dispel evil or dispel chaos. The succubus can remove it as well as a free action (causing 2d6 Charisma drain to the victim, no save).

So you are subject to at-will Suggestions and if she removes it you get CHA-drained. For Noct herself, she should basically be able to Dominate you at-will if you accept her gift. And if she removes it, you should probably just get completely wrecked.

Your companions, if they are not Chaotic Evil themselves, should almost certainly leave your party immediately and/or try to attack you. Regill for example should immediately attack you no questions asked. Instead, here's what happens: a few companions whine a bit. A tumbleweed sweeps across the screen. That's it.

The issue here is getting a free Profane bonus to your best stats for zero cost. If that wasn't in the game, this Profane bonus that Shadowcaster gets would be decent, and Owlcat wouldn't have to balance every class around the fact that Profane bonuses are useless unless they stack with Noct's Ascension.

You are correct, the consequences of acquiring Profane Ascension could've been far more severe, but Owlclown implementation has virtually no negative consequences unless you want to go Legend and can't muster up the saves to break the gift for whatever reason.

Regill just gives you a -1 point penalty during your Hellknight trial in chapter 5 which can be entirely negated by being a Hellknight yourself so you can come out completely clean out of the trial while having a profane gift and even with a one point fuckup you don't suffer any consequences, you need to fuckup harder for that:

Spoiler

Mephistopheles gives you a -1 point penalty when he puts you on trial that decides whether you're worthy of becoming a devil, but that entire trial is a circus and can be won by passing a single charisma check, making all of your previous choices irrelevant:

Spoiler

Not being able to get Baphomet's crystal while keeping the gift doesn't matter anymore, because the Midnight Isles DLC introduced an additional opportunity.

Basically, if you skimp the Profane Ascension you're just gimping yourself for no reason other than some lore blurbs, there are virtually no real consequences. No matter from which angle you look at the issue - it's an Owlclown fuckup, either in terms of balancing, or in terms of implementing consequences for major story decisions.

 

[Infinitron]

https://owlcat.games/news/88

GETTING TO KNOW OWLCAT PLAYERS

Some time ago, we reached out to you, our players, with a comprehensive survey to learn more about you and enhance your gaming experience.

We want to start by saying a huge thank you to everyone who found the time to participate! Nearly 23,500 people from all across the globe took our survey, not a small figure by any means. We sincerely appreciate each and every participant for dedicating their time and sharing their valuable feedback with us.

Today, we're excited to share some curious insights and findings we've made based on your feedback.

Please note that we won't cover every single question here, as that would turn this article into a novel! Instead, we’ll focus on the key highlights. So, sit back and enjoy the read!

​

Locations and languages​

Our players come from various corners of the world, with a majority from Europe (45.8%) and North America (39.8%). A more minor yet significant number hail from Asia (6%) and South America (3.4%). The remaining 5% of players are scattered across various other parts of the world. It's fantastic to see that Owlcat Games' captivating worlds are enjoyed across different regions worldwide. The more, the merrier!

When it comes to languages, English speakers make up the largest group at 61.55%. Following English, the top native languages among our players include German, French, Russian, Polish, and Spanish. This diversity enriches our community and adds to the global flavor of our gaming experience.

Many of our players are multilingual, which further enables them to connect with fellow enthusiasts globally, sharing experiences, lifehacks, and tips. In total, our players speak 217 languages—impressive, right? And this does not include C++, which one of our respondents also mentioned!

​

Platforms​

Our players love gaming on different devices. Most of them, 97%, prefer using Windows, enjoying its versatility. Many also appreciate the flexibility of portable devices such as the Nintendo Switch and Steam Deck, with 37.41% opting for mobile gaming.

PlayStation is favored by 28.6% of our community, while Xbox is only used by 10.16%. Curiously, 7.47% of players still find joy in retro consoles. Old habits die hard!

This wide range of platform choices not only enhances the gaming landscape but also highlights the importance of accessibility and options when catering to such a diverse range of player interests.

Genres​

Our players are passionate about RPGs. Surprising, isn’t it? They particularly enjoy isometric, action, and tactical RPGs. Alongside these, immersive sims and real-time strategy games are also significantly popular.

The top titles include Skyrim, Baldur's Gate 3, Divinity: Original Sin, Dragon Age, and Mass Effect. Did your favorites make the cut? Let us know in the comments!

Overall, our community showed a deep appreciation for RPGs, reflecting the genre's rich history from classic games to modern releases in their replies. The responses turned into a vast list of recommendations, including our favorite titles and even some new discoveries, which we will definitely check out in our free time.

Analyzing the titles mentioned, we've compiled a curious word cloud—keywords frequently appearing in the answers.

Gaming preferences​

Our players love escaping into fantasy worlds and exploring all sorts of imaginary universes to escape from reality for a bit—something we fully understand!

Some of the most popular settings include high fantasy, sci-fi, medieval adventures, cyberpunk dystopias, low fantasy, and post-apocalyptic scenarios. Each of these backgrounds offers a unique experience, whether it's battling dragons, navigating futuristic worlds, or surviving in a post-apocalyptic wasteland. In their responses, a significant number of people said they didn't care as much about the setting as they did about experiencing an engaging story.

Our players have clear favorites when it comes to game features: 16.42% enjoy open-world exploration, 14.54% appreciate romance options, and 10.95% value learning new things while playing. Players also seek challenging gameplay and a well-balanced game experience.

It's awesome that our tastes and interests match those of our audience—it's a sign we're on the right track! We strive to create story-rich games with complex, engaging mechanics and are really excited to find like-minded people in our playerbase who enjoy the same things in games as we do. Let's make story-driven games great again!

Regarding difficulty, over half of our players prefer to play on Normal, while about a third opt for Hard mode. Only a tiny portion, 3.79%, choose to take on Ironman mode, where a single mistake can end the game.

When it comes to multiplayer preferences, there is a pretty balanced spread among players. A significant 32.95% prefer solo PVE experiences. Nearly as many, 29.47%, enjoy both solo and co-op PVE gameplay.

Moreover, our community clearly favors computer and console gaming over mobile options, with 38% indicating that they’ve never played games on their phones.

Game purchases​

We all crave the excitement of discovering new worlds and stories, constantly looking to expand our game libraries. About a third of players purchase new games monthly, while a similar number buy one every few months, allowing enough time to fully explore each world.

On average, our players spend approximately $63 per month on games—clear dedication to their hobby. Around 47% of players are willing to buy games at full price after reading reviews and recommendations. However, many players tend to form their own opinions about a game by checking gameplay and reviews rather than blindly trusting others' thoughts.

An equal number prefer to wait for sales to get the best deal. A smaller 15% eagerly purchase games on release day to be among the first to play.

For many players, a crucial factor when choosing a game is the ability to play as diverse characters, such as women or non-human beings like elves, dwarves, or even furry or cat-like creatures. This customization allows players to immerse themselves more deeply in the game world and identify with their avatar.
Additionally, developer attitudes towards players and the community often play a role in decision-making. Players usually prioritize titles from developers who succeeded in building mutual trust with the community while avoiding developers perceived as unfriendly or dismissive. It’s a good thing that we connect with our community, are always ready to help, and provide them with up-to-date information and support!

Other interests​

Our players have diverse interests that extend beyond gaming, covering various facets of pop culture. The most popular hobby is tabletop gaming, particularly role-playing, with 71,50% of players claiming to be enthusiasts.

A significant 62% enjoy watching movies, while 56% indulge in TV shows. Music and anime are also popular, with 55% and 54% of participants enjoying these, respectively. Some of our players have more exotic hobbies, including historical reenactment, LARP (Live Action Role-Playing), heraldry, and even more extraordinary pursuits like necromancy and shamanic rituals. These players definitely choose to play as magicians or psykers in our games!

Others choose to partake in more earthly desires—for instance, one respondent is an avid beer enthusiast. In the glory of Cayden Cailean!

Our players carry a particular fondness for iconic franchises such as Warhammer 40,000 (of course!), Lord of the Rings, Fallout, Star Wars, and Dune. These universes offer rich narratives and imaginative worlds that resonate deeply with our community, inspiring them to explore and engage across diverse forms of media.

Unsurprisingly, a significant part of our players express a deep love of reading and immersing themselves in fictional worlds, which they emphasized repeatedly in their survey responses. Even though there was a specific question about books, many players persistently mentioned their reading habits when answering about their hobbies. Reading clearly holds a special place in their hearts!

That’s it for the moment! Overall, we’ve learned a lot from this survey, and we hope that we now know our community even better. Your feedback is so important to us, and it will undoubtedly help us to continue developing games that you, our community, love. Look out for a new survey next year, as we plan to make this an annual event!

 

[Fedora Master]

News???

 

[Camel]

Our players are passionate about RPGs. Surprising, isn’t it? They particularly enjoy isometric, action, and tactical RPGs. Alongside these, immersive sims and real-time strategy games are also significantly popular.

The top titles include Skyrim, Baldur's Gate 3, Divinity: Original Sin, Dragon Age, and Mass Effect. Did your favorites make the cut? Let us know in the

 

[Vulpes]

That's literally just a list of the most popular RPGs in the past 15 years.

 

[Camel]

That's literally just a list of the most popular RPGs in the past 15 years.

Fallout and Witcher are conspicuously absent.

 

[jf8350143]

That's literally just a list of the most popular RPGs in the past 15 years.

Fallout and Witcher are conspicuously absent.

It's really strange Fallout wasn't there. But Witcher I can understand.

It's not that popular anymore and there is no new game in the forseeable future.

 

[Harthwain]

It's really strange Fallout wasn't there. But Witcher I can understand.

It's not that popular anymore and there is no new game in the forseeable future.

There is The Witcher 4 in the works. Its release is speculated to be in 2025 or 2026.

 

[CoronerZg]

So, what's the state of the game? Should I wait for more content and polish or is it good enough already?
And how would you rate it compared to WoTR and Kingmaker? Are the enemy encounters finally good?

 

[MjKorz]

So, what's the state of the game? Should I wait for more content and polish or is it good enough already?
And how would you rate it compared to WoTR and Kingmaker? Are the enemy encounters finally good?

Wait for the DLC release since it'll supposedly be integrated into the early game and onwards.

Encounter design is worse than in Pathfinder games: it's even more chock-full of trash mobs - a deliberate design decision that serves to feed the player's momentum bar so that you can PRESS X TO WIN activate your heroic act and wipe the entire fucking map.

 

[ga♥]

And how would you rate it compared to WoTR and Kingmaker?

RT has less content than both.

Companions are better written.
Main plot takes a dive late game, together with the whole content, definetely worse, but until the dive is quite good.
Setting and athmosphere representation on par or slighty better.
Combat is worse, too easy and stops being rewarding at the start of mid game. Can't judge encounter design until this gets fixed (if).

Is it worth playing? Yes.

 

[MerchantKing]

https://owlcat.games/news/88

GETTING TO KNOW OWLCAT PLAYERS

Some time ago, we reached out to you, our players, with a comprehensive survey to learn more about you and enhance your gaming experience.

We want to start by saying a huge thank you to everyone who found the time to participate! Nearly 23,500 people from all across the globe took our survey, not a small figure by any means. We sincerely appreciate each and every participant for dedicating their time and sharing their valuable feedback with us.

Today, we're excited to share some curious insights and findings we've made based on your feedback.

Please note that we won't cover every single question here, as that would turn this article into a novel! Instead, we’ll focus on the key highlights. So, sit back and enjoy the read!

​

Locations and languages​

Our players come from various corners of the world, with a majority from Europe (45.8%) and North America (39.8%). A more minor yet significant number hail from Asia (6%) and South America (3.4%). The remaining 5% of players are scattered across various other parts of the world. It's fantastic to see that Owlcat Games' captivating worlds are enjoyed across different regions worldwide. The more, the merrier!

When it comes to languages, English speakers make up the largest group at 61.55%. Following English, the top native languages among our players include German, French, Russian, Polish, and Spanish. This diversity enriches our community and adds to the global flavor of our gaming experience.

Many of our players are multilingual, which further enables them to connect with fellow enthusiasts globally, sharing experiences, lifehacks, and tips. In total, our players speak 217 languages—impressive, right? And this does not include C++, which one of our respondents also mentioned!

​

Platforms​

Our players love gaming on different devices. Most of them, 97%, prefer using Windows, enjoying its versatility. Many also appreciate the flexibility of portable devices such as the Nintendo Switch and Steam Deck, with 37.41% opting for mobile gaming.

PlayStation is favored by 28.6% of our community, while Xbox is only used by 10.16%. Curiously, 7.47% of players still find joy in retro consoles. Old habits die hard!

This wide range of platform choices not only enhances the gaming landscape but also highlights the importance of accessibility and options when catering to such a diverse range of player interests.

Genres​

Our players are passionate about RPGs. Surprising, isn’t it? They particularly enjoy isometric, action, and tactical RPGs. Alongside these, immersive sims and real-time strategy games are also significantly popular.

The top titles include Skyrim, Baldur's Gate 3, Divinity: Original Sin, Dragon Age, and Mass Effect. Did your favorites make the cut? Let us know in the comments!

Overall, our community showed a deep appreciation for RPGs, reflecting the genre's rich history from classic games to modern releases in their replies. The responses turned into a vast list of recommendations, including our favorite titles and even some new discoveries, which we will definitely check out in our free time.

Analyzing the titles mentioned, we've compiled a curious word cloud—keywords frequently appearing in the answers.

Gaming preferences​

Our players love escaping into fantasy worlds and exploring all sorts of imaginary universes to escape from reality for a bit—something we fully understand!

Some of the most popular settings include high fantasy, sci-fi, medieval adventures, cyberpunk dystopias, low fantasy, and post-apocalyptic scenarios. Each of these backgrounds offers a unique experience, whether it's battling dragons, navigating futuristic worlds, or surviving in a post-apocalyptic wasteland. In their responses, a significant number of people said they didn't care as much about the setting as they did about experiencing an engaging story.

Our players have clear favorites when it comes to game features: 16.42% enjoy open-world exploration, 14.54% appreciate romance options, and 10.95% value learning new things while playing. Players also seek challenging gameplay and a well-balanced game experience.

It's awesome that our tastes and interests match those of our audience—it's a sign we're on the right track! We strive to create story-rich games with complex, engaging mechanics and are really excited to find like-minded people in our playerbase who enjoy the same things in games as we do. Let's make story-driven games great again!

Regarding difficulty, over half of our players prefer to play on Normal, while about a third opt for Hard mode. Only a tiny portion, 3.79%, choose to take on Ironman mode, where a single mistake can end the game.

When it comes to multiplayer preferences, there is a pretty balanced spread among players. A significant 32.95% prefer solo PVE experiences. Nearly as many, 29.47%, enjoy both solo and co-op PVE gameplay.

Moreover, our community clearly favors computer and console gaming over mobile options, with 38% indicating that they’ve never played games on their phones.

Game purchases​

We all crave the excitement of discovering new worlds and stories, constantly looking to expand our game libraries. About a third of players purchase new games monthly, while a similar number buy one every few months, allowing enough time to fully explore each world.

On average, our players spend approximately $63 per month on games—clear dedication to their hobby. Around 47% of players are willing to buy games at full price after reading reviews and recommendations. However, many players tend to form their own opinions about a game by checking gameplay and reviews rather than blindly trusting others' thoughts.

An equal number prefer to wait for sales to get the best deal. A smaller 15% eagerly purchase games on release day to be among the first to play.

For many players, a crucial factor when choosing a game is the ability to play as diverse characters, such as women or non-human beings like elves, dwarves, or even furry or cat-like creatures. This customization allows players to immerse themselves more deeply in the game world and identify with their avatar.
Additionally, developer attitudes towards players and the community often play a role in decision-making. Players usually prioritize titles from developers who succeeded in building mutual trust with the community while avoiding developers perceived as unfriendly or dismissive. It’s a good thing that we connect with our community, are always ready to help, and provide them with up-to-date information and support!

Other interests​

Our players have diverse interests that extend beyond gaming, covering various facets of pop culture. The most popular hobby is tabletop gaming, particularly role-playing, with 71,50% of players claiming to be enthusiasts.

A significant 62% enjoy watching movies, while 56% indulge in TV shows. Music and anime are also popular, with 55% and 54% of participants enjoying these, respectively. Some of our players have more exotic hobbies, including historical reenactment, LARP (Live Action Role-Playing), heraldry, and even more extraordinary pursuits like necromancy and shamanic rituals. These players definitely choose to play as magicians or psykers in our games!

Others choose to partake in more earthly desires—for instance, one respondent is an avid beer enthusiast. In the glory of Cayden Cailean!

Our players carry a particular fondness for iconic franchises such as Warhammer 40,000 (of course!), Lord of the Rings, Fallout, Star Wars, and Dune. These universes offer rich narratives and imaginative worlds that resonate deeply with our community, inspiring them to explore and engage across diverse forms of media.

Unsurprisingly, a significant part of our players express a deep love of reading and immersing themselves in fictional worlds, which they emphasized repeatedly in their survey responses. Even though there was a specific question about books, many players persistently mentioned their reading habits when answering about their hobbies. Reading clearly holds a special place in their hearts!

That’s it for the moment! Overall, we’ve learned a lot from this survey, and we hope that we now know our community even better. Your feedback is so important to us, and it will undoubtedly help us to continue developing games that you, our community, love. Look out for a new survey next year, as we plan to make this an annual event!

It's over. The west has fallen. Billions must die.

I also don't get their normal difficulty. "Normal" difficulty in my mind should imply no bonuses to either enemies or the player. Whereas in all three of their games, the "normal" difficulty is an easier difficulty than what should be the true normal difficulty. You have to do custom difficulty in this game to get it. In Kingmaker and Wrath you also had to play a custom difficulty to get no bonuses to anything at all and get the true normal difficulty. Calling a difficulty "normal" that gives the player buffs and enemies debuffs seems like a misnomer. It's an easy mode.

If they really want to make an easy game with romances they could just switch to pornographic visual novels, a format more appropriate for the audience they're trying to appeal to.

I decided to torrent this game recently. I'm not impressed by anything at all. It's quite boring. It's even worse than WotR. WotR at least has one fun element, putting 40 levels into a trickster/legend or making a Gnome lich illusion/negromancy caster. This game doesn't even have that. All the classes are boring. The character building is boring. The combat is boring. This game is easier than Solasta except Solasta is a lot more fun than RT. This game is so boring that I had more fun in the 30 minutes of PoE I played before removing it from my computer.

It's nothing but downhill from here.

 

[MjKorz]

I also don't get their normal difficulty. "Normal" difficulty in my mind should imply no bonuses to either enemies or the player. Whereas in all three of their games, the "normal" difficulty is an easier difficulty than what should be the true normal difficulty.

No bonuses to enemies relative to what? Even normal difficulty has stat inflation relative to tabletop. Stat bloat lies at the core of their enemy design.

 

[Lamiosa]

I also don't get their normal difficulty. "Normal" difficulty in my mind should imply no bonuses to either enemies or the player. Whereas in all three of their games, the "normal" difficulty is an easier difficulty than what should be the true normal difficulty.

No bonuses to enemies relative to what? Even normal difficulty has stat inflation relative to tabletop. Stat bloat lies at the core of their enemy design.

I don't get this argument and why it always come back. The tabletop is balanced for casual play with no "load game" after death and characters with no planned synnergy (and those people who like to play non optimally/make bad moves on purpose for roleplay) . Plus Owlcat give us a lot of powerful gear in the game (so we have more progression steps in the course of the game), far more than a normal tabletop game. It would be ridiculously easy if ever implemented as the normal difficulty.

 

[MjKorz]

I also don't get their normal difficulty. "Normal" difficulty in my mind should imply no bonuses to either enemies or the player. Whereas in all three of their games, the "normal" difficulty is an easier difficulty than what should be the true normal difficulty.

No bonuses to enemies relative to what? Even normal difficulty has stat inflation relative to tabletop. Stat bloat lies at the core of their enemy design.

I don't get this argument and why it always come back. The tabletop is balanced for casual play with no "load game" after death and characters with no planned synnergy (and those people who like to play non optimally/make bad moves on purpose for roleplay) . Plus Owlcat give us a lot of powerful gear in the game (so we have more progression steps in the course of the game), far more than a normal tabletop game. It would be ridiculously easy if ever implemented as the normal difficulty.

Because bloating the stats of trash mobs is the absolute worst way of increasing the challenge level of encounters. It is especially bad when implemented in the Owlclown way: as flat bonuses that cannot be dispelled instead of actual in-game legal buffs. You mention player party member synergy, but at the same time avoid asking the question: why didn't they just design encounters with enemy party synergy in mind?

There are many ways to make encounters more challenging without bloating enemy stats:

1. Smart enemy party composition. Tanks properly specced into combat maneuvers to both create a living shield for their allies and disrupt player characters. Reach weapon damage dealers specced into maximum attack bonus and damage that attack from behind the backs of their comrades. Clerics that provide not only minuscule heals or spam destruction or blade barrier, but actually use their strongest class feature - domain powers like madness, law, community, good, luck instead of just Nalfeshnees using touch of chaos. Arcane spellcasters that do not shy away from using actually powerful AoE disabling spells that fit the tactical encounter and their party composition. This and many other classes used together in tactically appropriate roles.

2. Smart target prioritization. If the player can see the enemy stats and prioritize attacking the weakest defenses, why can't the enemy do the same? Why can't the enemy archers prioritize player backline wizards? Or enemy wizards having a smart selection of level appropriate spells that target different saves and then using those spells against the weakest saves in the party?

3. Smart enemy spell selection and proper enemy caster itemization. Mages that use a combination of debuff/dispel + AoE or single target disabling spells, dispelling specialists that just spam dispel while having their dispel caster level check bonus maximized by legal in-game means. Mages using metamagic by any means including rods and casting selective/persistent/quickened AoE disables. The saddest part is that some enemies like that actually exist in the game, but they're extremely rare while they should actually be the common spellcaster representatives.

4. Liberal use of traps, ambushes and elevation. Traps that make charging the enemy formation head on deadly, enemy assassins dimension dooring on your backline, archers positioned on elevated ground that cannot be easily and quickly reached by player melee characters.

5. Liberal use of proper enemy prebuffing. If the player can prebuff, so should the enemy. And I'm not talking only about stat-increasing buffs, but various immunities as well that would make dumpstering entire encounters with one spell harder.

The problem with implementing all of these and other methods, however, lies in the fact that the developers need to actually understand the ruleset they're working with and how their game works in general. Owlclowns have demonstrated time and time again that they have absolutely no idea how their games work which is why all they can do is create statblocks and throw them in a pile without any kind of synergy.

 

[MerchantKing]

I also don't get their normal difficulty. "Normal" difficulty in my mind should imply no bonuses to either enemies or the player. Whereas in all three of their games, the "normal" difficulty is an easier difficulty than what should be the true normal difficulty.

No bonuses to enemies relative to what? Even normal difficulty has stat inflation relative to tabletop. Stat bloat lies at the core of their enemy design.

Relative to what they are when the sliders are set to neutral. For example, in KM and WotR you might notice that the enemies all have their damage and critical damage reduced by the sliders in normal difficulty. There's also the death's door mechanic which effectively reduces the consequences of a character dying.

As for the presence of statbloat, it's fairly minor to non-existent in Kingmaker with only a few examples of enemies that have their stats bloated compared to tabletop. While the worst you get will be some bonuses stacking that shouldn't. You only have to get to 70 AC or +30 saves on unfair. On "challenging" (closest thing to a true normal though enemies still get increases to attributes) you can play good tabletop builds and still trivialize the game.

You actually have to turn the difficulty up to Hard or Unfair to get any significant stat bloat in Kingmaker.

WotR is the game designed statbloat relative to tabletop became the norm as rather than fixing how mechanics are implemented, i.e. that Armor Enhancement increases an object's armor class and doesn't give the player an enhancement bonus or that most natural armor sources do not stack unless they are specified to either increase natural armor, i.e. mutagen natural armor and legendary proportions natural armor do not stack, or the flanking rules not being implemented.

Statbloat on everything comes from the ruleset. Players being able to spam buffs on everything and for everythign is a feature of WotC 3e just like how MTG has been since +1/+1 counters were added to the game. It was present in NWN, NWN2, ToEE. If you look at the average NWN1+2 builds for example, you'll always find calculations for saves and AB where all these bonuses are applied to show you can get +50 AB, 60 AC, +30 saves, etc. or something else along those lines because that's what the WotC ruleset allowed. Pf1e just took it to new heights by adding more abilities to everything. If anything, the statbloat already occurred in tabletop as buffing everything was made incredibly easy. In comparison, in spite of its many faults, WotC 5e does this better as attributes tend to be lower and you really cannot stack a billion effects at once due to constraints like concentration for magic buffs.

It would be ridiculously easy if ever implemented as the normal difficulty.

Kingmaker is ridiculously easy on normal difficulty. It's not very difficult on Hard either. Unfair is a different story as the difficulty is all rng and learning to stack as many AB bonuses as possible in the tutorial and exploit everything you can to make it out of the mansion and the encounters after that. The "difficulty" however goes away as you start to get to level 6+ and the characters start getting a lot more options for everyone. It's also ridiculously easy on normal difficulty in Wrath in spite of the bloat. You can get more of a challenge on Core difficulty as there are bigger encounters, though if you know what you're doing, these are also easy. You have to go to Unfair to get any "difficulty" though that just turns into stacking exploits to max AC, saves, and AB rather than having well-designed enemies and encounters in a well-designed game.

As for Rogue Trader, I'm not familiar with the 40k rpg. But based on how easy the game is with no effort on my part related to distributing character's stats, if the game is based on the 40k rpg, there doesn't seem to be any statbloat. This game seems even more casualized.

 

[Lamiosa]

I also don't get their normal difficulty. "Normal" difficulty in my mind should imply no bonuses to either enemies or the player. Whereas in all three of their games, the "normal" difficulty is an easier difficulty than what should be the true normal difficulty.

No bonuses to enemies relative to what? Even normal difficulty has stat inflation relative to tabletop. Stat bloat lies at the core of their enemy design.

I don't get this argument and why it always come back. The tabletop is balanced for casual play with no "load game" after death and characters with no planned synnergy (and those people who like to play non optimally/make bad moves on purpose for roleplay) . Plus Owlcat give us a lot of powerful gear in the game (so we have more progression steps in the course of the game), far more than a normal tabletop game. It would be ridiculously easy if ever implemented as the normal difficulty.

Because bloating the stats of trash mobs is the absolute worst way of increasing the challenge level of encounters. It is especially bad when implemented in the Owlclown way: as flat bonuses that cannot be dispelled instead of actual in-game legal buffs. You mention player party member synergy, but at the same time avoid asking the question: why didn't they just design encounters with enemy party synergy in mind?

There are many ways to make encounters more challenging without bloating enemy stats:

1. Smart enemy party composition. Tanks properly specced into combat maneuvers to both create a living shield for their allies and disrupt player characters. Reach weapon damage dealers specced into maximum attack bonus and damage that attack from behind the backs of their comrades. Clerics that provide not only minuscule heals or spam destruction or blade barrier, but actually use their strongest class feature - domain powers like madness, law, community, good, luck instead of just Nalfeshnees using touch of chaos. Arcane spellcasters that do not shy away from using actually powerful AoE disabling spells that fit the tactical encounter and their party composition. This and many other classes used together in tactically appropriate roles.

2. Smart target prioritization. If the player can see the enemy stats and prioritize attacking the weakest defenses, why can't the enemy do the same? Why can't the enemy archers prioritize player backline wizards? Or enemy wizards having a smart selection of level appropriate spells that target different saves and then using those spells against the weakest saves in the party?

3. Smart enemy spell selection and proper enemy caster itemization. Mages that use a combination of debuff/dispel + AoE or single target disabling spells, dispelling specialists that just spam dispel while having their dispel caster level check bonus maximized by legal in-game means. Mages using metamagic by any means including rods and casting selective/persistent/quickened AoE disables. The saddest part is that some enemies like that actually exist in the game, but they're extremely rare while they should actually be the common spellcaster representatives.

4. Liberal use of traps, ambushes and elevation. Traps that make charging the enemy formation head on deadly, enemy assassins dimension dooring on your backline, archers positioned on elevated ground that cannot be easily and quickly reached by player melee characters.

5. Liberal use of proper enemy prebuffing. If the player can prebuff, so should the enemy. And I'm not talking only about stat-increasing buffs, but various immunities as well that would make dumpstering entire encounters with one spell harder.

The problem with implementing all of these and other methods, however, lies in the fact that the developers need to actually understand the ruleset they're working with and how their game works in general. Owlclowns have demonstrated time and time again that they have absolutely no idea how their games work which is why all they can do is create statblocks and throw them in a pile without any kind of synergy.

Yeah I agree with you on that. But I think those points would only work beyond normal difficulty, as casual players, the majority of their player base, wouldn't be able to play with those terms ("what do you mean my glass cannon 150 IQ wizard self insert dies every fight before their first turn? Lame game"). I'm not sure if it's laziness, lack of time/resources or just technical incompetence, but the result is the same, these games could be a lot better than they are.

 

[MjKorz]

WotR is the game designed statbloat relative to tabletop became the norm as rather than fixing how mechanics are implemented, i.e. that Armor Enhancement increases an object's armor class and doesn't give the player an enhancement bonus or that most natural armor sources do not stack unless they are specified to either increase natural armor, i.e. mutagen natural armor and legendary proportions natural armor do not stack, or the flanking rules not being implemented.

Statbloat on everything comes from the ruleset.

But that would mean that the (falsely perceived) need for bloating enemy stats does not come from the ruleset, it comes from the incorrect implementation of the ruleset. If you implement the various stacking rules the way they should work in tabletop, you'd have less of a (falsely perceived) need to bloat enemy stats to compensate for the theoretical buff stacking the player can achieve.

Players being able to spam buffs on everything and for everythign is a feature of WotC 3e just like how MTG has been since +1/+1 counters were added to the game. It was present in NWN, NWN2, ToEE. If you look at the average NWN1+2 builds for example, you'll always find calculations for saves and AB where all these bonuses are applied to show you can get +50 AB, 60 AC, +30 saves, etc. or something else along those lines because that's what the WotC ruleset allowed. Pf1e just took it to new heights by adding more abilities to everything. If anything, the statbloat already occurred in tabletop as buffing everything was made incredibly easy. In comparison, in spite of its many faults, WotC 5e does this better as attributes tend to be lower and you really cannot stack a billion effects at once due to constraints like concentration for magic buffs.

Being able to stack numerous in-game legal buffs is actually not a problem, because you can use the same buffs to empower enemies during encounters. The problem lies with not wanting to use those in-game legal buffs on enemies and instead just giving every trash mob unexplainable +16 to all stats that cannot be dispelled. There wouldn't be much of a problem, if both the player and the enemies played by the same rules when it comes to (pre)buffing, the problem is that Owlclowns have a policy of buffing mostly just bosses and select end-game mobs while leaving the majority of trash unbuffed, even in cases where such buffs would make perfect sense due to enemies being accompanied by arcane/divine spellcasters.

 

[MerchantKing]

I also don't get their normal difficulty. "Normal" difficulty in my mind should imply no bonuses to either enemies or the player. Whereas in all three of their games, the "normal" difficulty is an easier difficulty than what should be the true normal difficulty.

No bonuses to enemies relative to what? Even normal difficulty has stat inflation relative to tabletop. Stat bloat lies at the core of their enemy design.

I don't get this argument and why it always come back. The tabletop is balanced for casual play with no "load game" after death and characters with no planned synnergy (and those people who like to play non optimally/make bad moves on purpose for roleplay) . Plus Owlcat give us a lot of powerful gear in the game (so we have more progression steps in the course of the game), far more than a normal tabletop game. It would be ridiculously easy if ever implemented as the normal difficulty.

Because bloating the stats of trash mobs is the absolute worst way of increasing the challenge level of encounters. It is especially bad when implemented in the Owlclown way: as flat bonuses that cannot be dispelled instead of actual in-game legal buffs. You mention player party member synergy, but at the same time avoid asking the question: why didn't they just design encounters with enemy party synergy in mind?

They develop all their games in less than a year and then release them in a nearly unplayable state.

2. Smart target prioritization. If the player can see the enemy stats and prioritize attacking the weakest defenses, why can't the enemy do the same?

Players shouldn't be able to see enemy stats. This is something that really should be done away with that Icewind Dale and even BG1+2 did better in this regard.

Why can't the enemy archers prioritize player backline wizards?

Line of sight, obstacles, etc. Line of sight is an often unimplemented idea in many games and it's especially absent in many D&D games. Unlike the movies, to actually hit something with a bow, you have to have to be able to see it and have a clear path to it while aiming at as directly as possible. The only D&D game that implements any kind of cover mechanic was KotC2. One of the few places I see friendly fire or obstacles being accounted for was in Battle Brothers.

Though in some cases, the enemies do target backliners in WotR. That being said, if you know enemies were to target exclusive wizards whenever possible, you either learn to exploit it, i.e. in Kingmaker's AI mod where you get tons of free AoO against enemies charging the backline. With archers targeting bakcliners, a player would simply designed Wizards around the fact that they're going to be targeted by making the wizard as invincible as possible against the archers so that either the archers will be baited into wasting their shots or to no longer prioratize wizards and still waste their shots while the enemies are cleared.

In Kingmaker and WotR, wizards already have access to a large number of spells that trivialize archers like protection from arrows, mirror image, all the AC they can already stack on themselves with their spells, etc. It wouldn't make any difference there.

4. Liberal use of traps, ambushes and elevation. Traps that make charging the enemy formation head on deadly,

The problem with traps in this game is that they are player character exclusive. I have yet to see any enemy let alone NPC trigger a trap in most games outside one of the few cutscenes. At this point in time, they seem to be nothing but a way to justify the existence of a trap removal skill. That being said, this is done quite a few times in WotR and even kingmaker as there are traps sometimes between you and nearby enemies.

enemy assassins dimension dooring on your backline,

This is done in a few encounters in WotR. Though the player just learns to put melees in the backline and to put "backliners" between characters. It doesn't add very much challenge in general.

archers positioned on elevated ground that cannot be easily and quickly reached by player melee characters

This is also done in a few encounters in WotR.

5. Liberal use of proper enemy prebuffing. If the player can prebuff, so should the enemy. And I'm not talking only about stat-increasing buffs, but various immunities as well that would make dumpstering entire encounters with one spell harder.

They use prebuffing in WotR.

 

[MerchantKing]

I also don't get their normal difficulty. "Normal" difficulty in my mind should imply no bonuses to either enemies or the player. Whereas in all three of their games, the "normal" difficulty is an easier difficulty than what should be the true normal difficulty.

No bonuses to enemies relative to what? Even normal difficulty has stat inflation relative to tabletop. Stat bloat lies at the core of their enemy design.

I don't get this argument and why it always come back. The tabletop is balanced for casual play with no "load game" after death and characters with no planned synnergy (and those people who like to play non optimally/make bad moves on purpose for roleplay) . Plus Owlcat give us a lot of powerful gear in the game (so we have more progression steps in the course of the game), far more than a normal tabletop game. It would be ridiculously easy if ever implemented as the normal difficulty.

Because bloating the stats of trash mobs is the absolute worst way of increasing the challenge level of encounters. It is especially bad when implemented in the Owlclown way: as flat bonuses that cannot be dispelled instead of actual in-game legal buffs. You mention player party member synergy, but at the same time avoid asking the question: why didn't they just design encounters with enemy party synergy in mind?

There are many ways to make encounters more challenging without bloating enemy stats:

1. Smart enemy party composition. Tanks properly specced into combat maneuvers to both create a living shield for their allies and disrupt player characters. Reach weapon damage dealers specced into maximum attack bonus and damage that attack from behind the backs of their comrades. Clerics that provide not only minuscule heals or spam destruction or blade barrier, but actually use their strongest class feature - domain powers like madness, law, community, good, luck instead of just Nalfeshnees using touch of chaos. Arcane spellcasters that do not shy away from using actually powerful AoE disabling spells that fit the tactical encounter and their party composition. This and many other classes used together in tactically appropriate roles.

2. Smart target prioritization. If the player can see the enemy stats and prioritize attacking the weakest defenses, why can't the enemy do the same? Why can't the enemy archers prioritize player backline wizards? Or enemy wizards having a smart selection of level appropriate spells that target different saves and then using those spells against the weakest saves in the party?

3. Smart enemy spell selection and proper enemy caster itemization. Mages that use a combination of debuff/dispel + AoE or single target disabling spells, dispelling specialists that just spam dispel while having their dispel caster level check bonus maximized by legal in-game means. Mages using metamagic by any means including rods and casting selective/persistent/quickened AoE disables. The saddest part is that some enemies like that actually exist in the game, but they're extremely rare while they should actually be the common spellcaster representatives.

4. Liberal use of traps, ambushes and elevation. Traps that make charging the enemy formation head on deadly, enemy assassins dimension dooring on your backline, archers positioned on elevated ground that cannot be easily and quickly reached by player melee characters.

5. Liberal use of proper enemy prebuffing. If the player can prebuff, so should the enemy. And I'm not talking only about stat-increasing buffs, but various immunities as well that would make dumpstering entire encounters with one spell harder.

The problem with implementing all of these and other methods, however, lies in the fact that the developers need to actually understand the ruleset they're working with and how their game works in general. Owlclowns have demonstrated time and time again that they have absolutely no idea how their games work which is why all they can do is create statblocks and throw them in a pile without any kind of synergy.

Yeah I agree with you on that. But I think those points would only work beyond normal difficulty, as casual players, the majority of their player base, wouldn't be able to play with those terms ("what do you mean my glass cannon 150 IQ wizard self insert dies every fight before their first turn? Lame game").

Somehow Fromsoft was able to get successful by ignoring casual gamers and making their games harder while using that as a selling point. Thinking about Dark Souls as an example, they doubled down on the difficulty with the next DLC and even released the "Prepare to Die edition" to use higher difficulty as part of the marketing.

If anything, casual gamers are best ignored until they learn that visual novels are the genre for them.

I'm not sure if it's laziness, lack of time/resources or just technical incompetence, but the result is the same, these games could be a lot better than they are.

It's likely all of the above.

 

[Fedora Master]

We've been over this. Owlscat can't design systems for shit and their only recourse is adding more NUMBAHS to enemies. They're the equivalent of a sweatty fat GM going "Uuuuh akshullly the boss has 40AC and there's like a dozen mooks in the shadows that you never noticed o-okay?"

You'd think these Asiatics were better with math.

 

[MjKorz]

Players shouldn't be able to see enemy stats.

Players not being able to see enemy stats still doesn't solve the target prioritization advantage players can enjoy just by looking at the enemy party composition and making intelligent guesses regarding target strengths and weaknesses. If the player can make intelligent guesses and prioritize targets based on weaknesses and threat level, so should the AI. Sadly, in an overwhelming majority of encounters, enemies target mostly the closest targets with only scripted encounters changing enemy target prioritization.

Line of sight, obstacles, etc.

Which means that the enemy archers shouldn't remain stationary and instead change position to hit easier targets. This is not some kind of otherworldly concept that requires alien tech, it's something that has already been implemented in countless TBT games and Japanese SRPGs.

Though in some cases, the enemies do target backliners in WotR.

Mostly scripted encounters where the enemies are coded to go for the MC after a cutscene who may or may not be in the back.

That being said, if you know enemies were to target exclusive wizards whenever possible, you either learn to exploit it, i.e. in Kingmaker's AI mod where you get tons of free AoO against enemies charging the backline. With archers targeting bakcliners, a player would simply designed Wizards around the fact that they're going to be targeted by making the wizard as invincible as possible against the archers so that either the archers will be baited into wasting their shots or to no longer prioratize wizards and still waste their shots while the enemies are cleared.

First of all, enemies should practice smart target prioritization which means targeting the weakest defenses which may or may not be backliners, depending on their buffs. Secondly, there is nothing wrong with active counterplay against enemy tactics as this is an expression of tactical depth - the need to adapt your tactics to specific situations and encounters.

The problem with traps in this game is that they are player character exclusive.

That's actually not a problem inherently, such behavior can be explained by a simple notion of enemies being informed about the locations of their own traps and not stepping into them. It's a crude explanation and requires some suspension of disbelief, but it's good enough for gameplay purposes. The real solution to this would be just code enemy pathfinding to walk around their own traps, but that requires competence.

That being said, this is done quite a few times in WotR and even kingmaker as there are traps sometimes between you and nearby enemies.

Yes, there are encounters with traps positioned between the player and enemy units like those you find in Currantglen underground, but encounters like these are extremely rare. Traps should be used far more liberally to create tactical depth (i.e. the need to adapt) and increase the usefulness of trickery skill in combat.

This is done in a few encounters in WotR.

Yes, Babau Infiltrators do that, which is good (their presence, not their extreme rarity, which is very bad).

Though the player just learns to put melees in the backline and to put "backliners" between characters. It doesn't add very much challenge in general.

It adds the need for active counterplay which is good and it also adds a strong element of danger when teleporting enemies use reach weapons and are capable of high burst damage that can chunk your vulnerable low AC characters in one flurry even if you surround them with martials.

They use prebuffing in WotR.

Mostly used on bosses and some select end-game enemies. Prebuffing should be far more liberal and should be applied to enemies at any stage of the game to compensate for the loss of stat bloat relative to tabletop.