Incline Warhammer 40,000 Lore Thread

[Mangoose]

Er, Dark Age of Technology.

 

[Storyfag]

Note that spirit machines also are AIs. Big machines like Knights and spaceships are implied to have not just a brain but legit AI, one that's usually self aware to some extent, a fact which the AM makes it vague so that people don't freak out.

They're specifically not AIs because AIs caused the Age of Darkness and this is why they are banned.

Are you familiar with the concept of "lies"? How might it relate to AdMech claims such as: "It's most definitely not an AI. Those are banned. It's a... Machine Spirit! Honest!"?

 

[Mangoose]

Note that spirit machines also are AIs. Big machines like Knights and spaceships are implied to have not just a brain but legit AI, one that's usually self aware to some extent, a fact which the AM makes it vague so that people don't freak out.

They're specifically not AIs because AIs caused the Age of Darkness and this is why they are banned.

Are you familiar with the concept of "lies"? How might it relate to the AdMech claims such as: "It's most definitely not an AI. Those are banned. It's a... Machine Spirit!"?

Those would be Excommunicated by the Cult Mechanicus. The Emperor is the Omnissiah and to disobey the Emperor is to disobey the Omnissiah.

 

[lightbane]

It's like how sometimes a Tech priest finds a convenient STC fragment that justifies a new vehicle design he "found" somewhere...

 

[Mangoose]

It's like how sometimes a Tech priest finds a convenient STC fragment that justifies a new vehicle design he "found" somewhere...

Those are the radicals. Such as Cawl. Dark Mechanicum. Etc.

For example:
- Fabricator General of the Adeptus Mechanicus creates the AI in "The Kaban Project" (and allying with Horus) which leads to the Adeptus Mechanicus Civil War on Mars, leading to the loyalists of the admech being sequestered on Earth during the Horus Heresy. And then reclaim Mars after the Heresy.
- Or when Cawl explains why he DOESN'T want a leadership position on Mars - Because it would lead to, again, civil war.

‘Of course I can’t be Fabricator General!’ said Cawl. He set off again, his feet tip-tapping on the glossy floor. ‘Half the Mechanicus think me the anti-maker cloaked in metal and flesh.’ He swayed in close to deliver a loud stage whisper to Felix. ‘I do research, you know. There are some that call me scientist!’ He laughed. ‘There would be immediate and devastating violence across all the forge worlds if I raised so much as a meaningful eyebrow in the direction of the Fabricator General’s Forge. We would suffer a replay of the Heresy itself. Though I do admit that makes me sound a little full of myself, it is true.’

Haley, Guy. Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work (Warhammer 40,000) (p. 239). Kindle Edition.

-- Cawl in fact has a "version" of himself installed into Guilliman's flagship and Guilliman suspects it's an A.I., but Guilliman is super practical.
- AI btw stands for Abominibal Intelligence, not Artificial Intelligence. In other words, yes they're same thing but semantically and conceptually, Artificial is considered Abominibal.

It's almost like the Inquisition tbh. The difference is that Radical Inquisitors are acknowledged as an official niche... Radical Mechanicus are on a range from death-row criminal to Heretic Faction To Be Purged.

Also, again, they worship teh Omnissiah. This is because the Emperor literally showed up on Mars and proclaimed himself the Machine God. In other words, the Omnissiah is not (fully) abstract. The AdMech have faith in the Emperor due to empirical evidence of his existence. Remember, they are the ultimate autistists. (Kinda like how the current Imperium worshipping the Emperor even though he's a mortal entity, not a transcendent one. People are nuts and dumb at that time)

 

[Fedora Master]

It's like how sometimes a Tech priest finds a convenient STC fragment that justifies a new vehicle design he "found" somewhere...

The AdMech believe all relevant knowledge has already been discovered earlier during the Dark Age of Technology. Their job is to rediscover, not innovate. "Experimenter" is used as a heinous insult among them.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Some vintage art, a Navigator of the Navis Nobilite in his chamber, the Sanctum Navis:

What's with the bat wings.

Batmarines

 

[Mangoose]

It's like how sometimes a Tech priest finds a convenient STC fragment that justifies a new vehicle design he "found" somewhere...

The AdMech believe all relevant knowledge has already been discovered earlier during the Dark Age of Technology. Their job is to rediscover, not innovate. "Experimenter" is used as a heinous insult among them.

Yeah. Mainly because when mankind innovates it becomes a weapon that backfires horribly and destroys civilization.

Actually a relevant and good book to read is Mechanicum by Graham McNeill. Then his "Priests/Gods/Lords of Mars" series. He writes them as well as he writes his Iron Warriors. Better prose than he has with, say, the Thousand Sons or his Ultramarines series. Not exactly sure why McNeill is like that but lol.

 

[luj1]

 

[NwNgger]

I completely lost what little respect I had left for Warhammer 40k and it's lore when Dan Abnett was allowed to reduce the entire Horus Heresy and everything after to the fault of a woman having a strop. It'd be funny if 40k was actually the satire tourists claim it to be. But we are meant to take this as a profound twist on par with Darth Vader being Luke's father. Something that is supposed to recontextuallize the entire 40k Universe. Someone at GW needed to smack Abnett with a rolled up newspaper. But GW don't care about the integrity of their setting beyond selling minis. So why should I?

 

[Storyfag]

I completely lost what little respect I had left for Warhammer 40k and it's lore when Dan Abnett was allowed to reduce the entire Horus Heresy and everything after to the fault of a woman having a strop. It'd be funny if 40k was actually the satire tourists claim it to be. But we are meant to take this as a profound twist on par with Darth Vader being Luke's father. Something that is supposed to recontextuallize the entire 40k Universe. Someone at GW needed to smack Abnett with a rolled up newspaper. But GW don't care about the integrity of their setting beyond selling minis. So why should I?

Given the quality of Abnett's other work, I would assume he was under strict orders to butcher the Heresy in this manner, rather than implementing the idea on his own.

 

[Louis_Cypher]

I'm sure you have all seen/done this before, but I tried to find each cinematic depiction of a "warp jump" (that I can remember).

Dawn of War 2:



Inquisitor - Martyr:



Battlefleet Gothic: Armada:



Mechanicus:



Darktide:

 

[Louis_Cypher]

Out of interest, which of the games containing space travel, contain the widest volumes of explorable space?

As far as I can remember (haven't yet played Chaos Gate 2), here are some.

1). Battlefleet Gothic: Armada 2 - 12 Sectors (Cadian, Agripinaa, Scarus, Medusa, etc...):

2). Inquisitor Martyr - 1 Sector (Caligari):

3). Rogue Trader - 1 Sector (Koronus Expanse):

4). Battlefleet Gothic: Armada - 1 Sector (Gothic Sector):

5). Dawn of War 2 - 1 Sub-Sector (Aurelia):

Honourable mention to pen-and-paper Calixis Sector, which is next to the Koronus Expanse, and the Scarus Sector of Eisenhorn. If Owlcat make another game, maybe it would be called "Warhammer 40,000: Dark Heresy", focused on the Inquisition, and set in the Calixis Sector. This bunch of Sectors around the Eye of Terror are covered more than any other, thanks to RPG rulebooks.

To the north of the Eye of Terror, linking up with the top map:

 

[RaggleFraggle]

The nature of machine spirits is obscured on multiple levels. From an in-universe perspective the truth is obscured by ignorance of the actual nature of technology and the religious beliefs without foundation in reality. Out-of-universe, GW hasn’t settled on a consistent explanation. Writers don’t know either. So you get incidents like that comic where a lasgun worries about disappointing its owner.

This is a universe where all humans have some degree of psychic ability that alters reality when properly channeled, so giving life to machines is perfectly in keeping with line, but what purpose does making a lasgun sentient serve? It can’t communicate or act autonomously, so only the reader would even know it’s sentient!

 

[Louis_Cypher]

In Rogue Trader, the question of machine spirits is less obscured, they almost present it in a clarified way.

As you can probably tell from my renewed interest in certain topics these last two pages, I'm making my way through Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader right now. The reason I bring up the topic of machine spirits, is that the game presents a lot of the Adeptus Mechanicus' POV. The Machine Cult theology does seem really Platonic. I would venture to say that it might even work as a real-world theology. Although obviously I disagree with it's emphasis on machines as opposed to humans.

Plato presented a conceptual idea, that perhaps there is a second "higher truth" layer to reality, the "world of forms". A form is the ideal concept of a thing. It is eternal. It would exist in some sense, even if there was no example of the given thing in the material world. The perfect form of Michaelanglo's David would exist, even if there were no carvings of David, in some sense as potentiality. An arist reaches toward the perfect form. Then there are higher forms that define the lower forms, like the "form of beauty". Then the ultimate higher form, is "the form of the good". Since "the good" is responsible in a sense, for all lower forms, the good, in a sense, animates all lower forms, and ultimately it animates us. Because heat, light, life, civilization, are all participants in "the good".

So the game presents machine spirits, and the Cult Mechanicus, in a Platonic way. The Omnissiah, being a prime mover, like "the good", is animating all lower mechanisms, in a metaphysical sense, like "the good" animates all light, heat, civilization and life. The "motive" force, literally. Then the lower devices that the Cult Mechanicus cares for, are varying participants in the motive force, even if they are dumb machines, like a steam-powered flywheel. The advanced psuedo-AI devices are merely "more" participants in the motive force, not sole participants, because they have higher complexity, the way the Greeks thought that human souls, animal souls and plant souls were of different systemic complexity, with humans being the most rational, thus most divine.

EDIT: Aquinas took Aristotle's position and rejected Plato's forms, but still the idea of a higher heavenly realm has many parralels with the two-layer view. I think I remember someone saying forms are like the thoughts of God, so AdMech theology is close to scholastic ideas. "In the beginning was the Word..." If Logos, an intelligable world, is God, then the AdMech focus on reason is very scholastic.

 

[Yaar Podshipnik]

I think you attribute a bit too much thought and depth to a setting that was designed by some british dudes way back in the 80s.

 

[Fedora Master]

Why do these faggots feel the need to make shit up.

 

[Fedora Master]

I think you attribute a bit too much thought and depth to a setting that was designed by some british dudes way back in the 80s.

Machine Spirits are what happens when you don't clean your Temp folder for ten thousand years.

 

[SpaceWizardz]

I recall Rogue Trader being couched in the interpretation that human technology is mundane and AdMech theurgy being pure drivel.
Every instance of a "Machine Spirit" ends up being an AI/Xenos tech, tech use skill checks have the player operating machines without any of the rituals, while their Canticles and Hymms are ultimately just them shouting voice commands to DDoS heretics or run the antivirus.

 

[Louis_Cypher]

I think you attribute a bit too much thought and depth to a setting that was designed by some british dudes way back in the 80s.

I dunno, maybe... I think people/writers put this stuff in almost by accident, if they happen to hold to it, or if they are consciously interested in it. I mean Tolkien is "consciously Catholic (in the revision)". Everyone has metaphysical axioms of some kind, even if they don't know it. Plus the Machine Cult is explicitly meant to resemble medieval monasticism, so they probably looked some stuff up to put in:

 

[SpaceWizardz]

Plus the Machine Cult is explicitly meant to resemble medieval monasticism, so they probably looked some stuff up to put in:

AdMech was pilfered from A Canticle for Leibowitz, with a little bit of Dune and Foundation sprinkled in for flavor. 40k's genome is predominately made up of classic sci-fi.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Neat idea, right? Well, publisher Rackham went bankrupt in 2010 and the game hasn't had a new edition since. That's the problem with 40k dominating the entire tabletop space.

Rackham killed itself.

It started out selling the most intricate and detailed lead figures that have ever existed, to swapping out immediately to pre-painted plastic shite.

Another candidate to dethrone GW messes up because they cannot help but shit the bed.

The noughties China boom fucked up metal prices for everyone, but Rackham (a boutique miniature company) tying themselves to what was essentially east asian toy manufacturing with its shipping timelapse and quality control issues is about the most retarded thing I think I've seen a miniature company attempt. Didn't something similar happen to privateer press?

This is basic info btw, try to at least google.

We are all aware of that. This is the 40K thread. Consider who you are amongst. There is ambiguity, however, in fandom, about whether a Machine Spirit always refers to cognition of some kind, or if Tech-Priests see even a 'dumb' mechanism, like a simple combustion engine, as possessing one. I was just speculating on whether Cult Mechanicus' theology is Platonic.

In classical Greek philosophy, the soul is the animating force, behind even DNA (not that they knew about molecules, but the entire contingent world was animated by The Good). Then Christianity also justified it's theology using similar terms. So I'm speculating that the theology of the Cult Mechanicus sounds very Platonic, with lower 'forms' animating things, and close to St Thomas Aquinas theology of Trinitarian Christianity.

Someone who writes the admech stuff is definitely someone having fun with the concept of metaphysics. I've always envisioned a medieval reverential treatment of relics combined with the reality of firearms and engines in tanks. I picture pre-industrial society making highly industrial and complicated products. A scribe laboriously copying code by hand for a targeting computer or operating system like a medieval illuminator rather than just simply right clicking copy/pasta, let alone deploying in mass.

Silk screening PCB's on a workshop scale or meticulously tracing by hand for the master crafted shit etc.

Grotesquely and agonisingly inefficient.

 

[Caim]

Neat idea, right? Well, publisher Rackham went bankrupt in 2010 and the game hasn't had a new edition since. That's the problem with 40k dominating the entire tabletop space.

Rackham killed itself.

It started out selling the most intricate and detailed lead figures that have ever existed, to swapping out immediately to pre-painted plastic shite.

Another candidate to dethrone GW messes up because they cannot help but shit the bed.

The noughties China boom fucked up metal prices for everyone, but Rackham (a boutique miniature company) tying themselves to what was essentially east asian toy manufacturing with its shipping timelapse and quality control issues is about the most retarded thing I think I've seen a miniature company attempt. Didn't something similar happen to privateer press?

I do remember having some company getting the molds for their miniatures stolen and repurposed by some Chinese company, but I don't remember which company that was.

Note that these molds can be incredibly expensive and the main financial hurdle for anyone to start making plastic sprues in bulk.

 

[Mangoose]

Neat idea, right? Well, publisher Rackham went bankrupt in 2010 and the game hasn't had a new edition since. That's the problem with 40k dominating the entire tabletop space.

Rackham killed itself.

It started out selling the most intricate and detailed lead figures that have ever existed, to swapping out immediately to pre-painted plastic shite.

Another candidate to dethrone GW messes up because they cannot help but shit the bed.

The noughties China boom fucked up metal prices for everyone, but Rackham (a boutique miniature company) tying themselves to what was essentially east asian toy manufacturing with its shipping timelapse and quality control issues is about the most retarded thing I think I've seen a miniature company attempt. Didn't something similar happen to privateer press?

This is basic info btw, try to at least google.

We are all aware of that. This is the 40K thread. Consider who you are amongst. There is ambiguity, however, in fandom, about whether a Machine Spirit always refers to cognition of some kind, or if Tech-Priests see even a 'dumb' mechanism, like a simple combustion engine, as possessing one. I was just speculating on whether Cult Mechanicus' theology is Platonic.

In classical Greek philosophy, the soul is the animating force, behind even DNA (not that they knew about molecules, but the entire contingent world was animated by The Good). Then Christianity also justified it's theology using similar terms. So I'm speculating that the theology of the Cult Mechanicus sounds very Platonic, with lower 'forms' animating things, and close to St Thomas Aquinas theology of Trinitarian Christianity.

Someone who writes the admech stuff is definitely someone having fun with the concept of metaphysics. I've always envisioned a medieval reverential treatment of relics combined with the reality of firearms and engines in tanks. I picture pre-industrial society making highly industrial and complicated products. A scribe laboriously copying code by hand for a targeting computer or operating system like a medieval illuminator rather than just simply right clicking copy/pasta, let alone deploying in mass.

Silk screening PCB's on a workshop scale or meticulously tracing by hand for the master crafted shit etc.

Grotesquely and agonisingly inefficient.

Actually I think they are quite efficient for that is part of their religion.

It just so happens that the AdMech religion is like a manual (<- which WOULD be interesting to talk about)

 

[Mangoose]

Plus the Machine Cult is explicitly meant to resemble medieval monasticism, so they probably looked some stuff up to put in:

AdMech was pilfered from A Canticle for Leibowitz, with a little bit of Dune and Foundation sprinkled in for flavor. 40k's genome is predominately made up of classic sci-fi.

Uh... You mean predominately Warhammer Fantasy.