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Incline Warhammer 40,000 Lore Thread

Shig

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I gotta tell ya Louis, I think the real issue is that Necrons were given personalities. There is an old quality meme about this, some MSPaint fa/tg/uy comic, that I wish I had saved.

To me, Necrons were always "cooler" when they were a silent wave of death that just came out of the fucking ground. No rhyme or reason to what they did, at least not as far as anyone could tell, and they would just relentlessly exterminator everything without so much as a whisper. Now you've got Trazyn, the Meme King, who just goes around nabbing his anime figurines from across the galaxy. And while that does indeed have its own charm, it certainly takes a bit of that horrifying mystique away from the Chromb Kings.
 

Mangoose

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I gotta tell ya Louis, I think the real issue is that Necrons were given personalities. There is an old quality meme about this, some MSPaint fa/tg/uy comic, that I wish I had saved.
That was the expectation.

The result was two named characters with everything else the same. The only difference is that the named C'Tan who have personalities have been replaced by named Necrons with personalities.
 

Shig

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That was the expectation.
That is the reality. The comic was definitely overblowing things, purposefully, but all named Necron characters (and some unnamed, as made evident in Mechanicus, Rogue Trader, and a few other games) have voices and/or personalities. If you are out of the loop on this, feel free to search "Pariah Nexus" on YouTube for a good rundown or some examples. In fact, I believe the codex (or perhaps the 9th ed codex to be fair) now states that all but the lowest of the low in the Necron dynasties have reained (at least some) of their original self.
 

Louis_Cypher

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I gotta tell ya Louis, I think the real issue is that Necrons were given personalities. There is an old quality meme about this, some MSPaint fa/tg/uy comic, that I wish I had saved.

To me, Necrons were always "cooler" when they were a silent wave of death that just came out of the fucking ground. No rhyme or reason to what they did, at least not as far as anyone could tell, and they would just relentlessly exterminator everything without so much as a whisper. Now you've got Trazyn, the Meme King, who just goes around nabbing his anime figurines from across the galaxy. And while that does indeed have its own charm, it certainly takes a bit of that horrifying mystique away from the Chromb Kings.
Agreed, that's it man :)

Maybe when all is said and done, it's one of the few times I appreciated a faction having less individuality, as Skynet, say, in Terminator, is all the more horrific because it is a silent will directing essentially a race war on human life. I guess Oldcrons had a vibe like Skynet rising from the grave, I dunno how to put it. Newcrons have their will essentially directed by an individualistic king, with individual foibles.
 

fizzelopeguss

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What I meant is lore-wise, they were portrayed as endless in numbers, barely any having awoken yet, millions of years more advanced than any other faction, and united in purpose. Another existential horror on the level of the Tyranids. Now they are broken into dynasties, disunited, etc.
Yeah you're repeating skub that's been repeated for over a decade.

They are also barely haven woken up yet. They are united in purpose - their 1# most powerful king went on a journey, didn't expect them to have woken up yet. Then he saw they are awoken, he's regathering the kingdom.

They are fine. Read the actual lore/novels or even 1d4chan/1d6chan.

Or try playing the game.

Or maybe you can just pretend to do one or the other.

We don't need another existential horror on the level of the Tyranids, specifically because they are an unthinking hive/hordemind.. 40k isn't about doing the same thing again. It's about having a new type of absurdity to deal with every time. Otherwise it's stupid, would be edgy, not grimdark.

Lol bollocks to that. And fucking no, I shall not.

Some yank consoomer telling us what 40k is or isn't as it swallows, regurgitates and swallows again MARVELised novella slop.

:negative:
 
Last edited:

Mangoose

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What I meant is lore-wise, they were portrayed as endless in numbers, barely any having awoken yet, millions of years more advanced than any other faction, and united in purpose. Another existential horror on the level of the Tyranids. Now they are broken into dynasties, disunited, etc.
Yeah you're repeating skub that's been repeated for over a decade.

They are also barely haven woken up yet. They are united in purpose - their 1# most powerful king went on a journey, didn't expect them to have woken up yet. Then he saw they are awoken, he's regathering the kingdom.

They are fine. Read the actual lore/novels or even 1d4chan/1d6chan.

Or try playing the game.

Or maybe you can just pretend to do one or the other.

We don't need another existential horror on the level of the Tyranids, specifically because they are an unthinking hive/hordemind.. 40k isn't about doing the same thing again. It's about having a new type of absurdity to deal with every time. Otherwise it's stupid, would be edgy, not grimdark.

Lol bollocks to that. And fucking no, I shall not.

Some yank consoomer telling us what 40k is or isn't as it swallows, regurgitates and swallows again MARVELised novella slop.

:negative:
Who said I pay for it?
 

Mangoose

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That was the expectation.
That is the reality. The comic was definitely overblowing things, purposefully, but all named Necron characters (and some unnamed, as made evident in Mechanicus, Rogue Trader, and a few other games) have voices and/or personalities. If you are out of the loop on this, feel free to search "Pariah Nexus" on YouTube for a good rundown or some examples. In fact, I believe the codex (or perhaps the 9th ed codex to be fair) now states that all but the lowest of the low in the Necron dynasties have reained (at least some) of their original self.
Lol

Been in the loop since Matt Wardian 5th edition.

This was already done and complained about a decade ago.
 

RaggleFraggle

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This is why I’m opposed to the existence of IP monopolies like 40k. If the current owner makes changes you don’t like, then you’re stuck with it and have no alternatives. This has been happening to every IP for decades: Star Trek, Star Wars, Doctor Who, Starship Troopers, etc.

We need to make our own IPs and lots of them to insulate ourselves against unlikeable changes and bad writing.
 

Shig

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Been in the loop since Matt Wardian 5th edition.
Then you shouldn't need me to tell you.

This was before your time, but when the Necrons first officially hit the scene in 3rd, they were just shambling silent horrors. If you truly believe nothing about them, apart from "two named characters," has changed since then, you're not being genuine. Either that, or you're just being obtuse for funsies.
 

fizzelopeguss

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Been in the loop since Matt Wardian 5th edition.
Then you shouldn't need me to tell you.

This was before your time, but when the Necrons first officially hit the scene in 3rd, they were just shambling silent horrors. If you truly believe nothing about them, apart from "two named characters," has changed since then, you're not being genuine. Either that, or you're just being obtuse for funsies.

I've still got my early metal raiders and scarabs floating about somewhere.

r62r1mh1g0881.jpg


They were in Digganob iirc, the feral humans were digging under pyramids for the Orks.
 

Mangoose

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Been in the loop since Matt Wardian 5th edition.
Then you shouldn't need me to tell you.

This was before your time, but when the Necrons first officially hit the scene in 3rd, they were just shambling silent horrors. If you truly believe nothing about them, apart from "two named characters," has changed since then, you're not being genuine. Either that, or you're just being obtuse for funsies.
Dude.

In 5th edition, Matt Ward made everyone hate Ultramarines and Guilliman, hated Mary Sues. Also, the Grey Knights.
In 6th edition, Matt Ward made Necrons into Tomb Kings.

6th edition was from 2012. That means, again, that you are bringing up complaints from over a decade ago. 2024-2012 = A decade + 2 years, in fact. I've already lived through and participated in these discussions over a decade ago. Either you're intent on boring me, or you're bringnig them up pretending trying to seem new and edgy.

On the other hand, with Matt Ward gone, BL has somehow managed to make Guilliman likeable ironically due to the Horus Heresy series (well, Dan Abnett).

In current lore, the Necrons are barely awakening, with their #1 leader on a sojourn, not back yet because he didn't expect them to awaken that fast. Because it was his decision to hide away and then prey on a future civilization. And that worked on all the Necrons, as he had control over all protocol.

The Tomb Emperor (Silent King) is very well Skynet and does have totalitarian control. He's just out of town.

Edit: Well, the most likely truth is that GW wanted to sell more new miniatures. There is nothing stopping you from pretending Necrons are still as before. In 40k the rule is that everything written is canon. Including that which has been retconned. The pre-retcon and the retcon are both considered official canon.

Point is, you got srs business about an absurd dystopia intentionally exaggerated for the rule of cool and/or the rule of laughs.
 

Mangoose

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This is why I’m opposed to the existence of IP monopolies like 40k. If the current owner makes changes you don’t like, then you’re stuck with it and have no alternatives. This has been happening to every IP for decades: Star Trek, Star Wars, Doctor Who, Starship Troopers, etc.
If the current owner of 40k makes changes you don't like, the Games Workshop rule is ignore it. Especially since canon that is retconned is still consider canon. Everything that has come from 40k GW is considered canon, even if retconned.
 

Louis_Cypher

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Someone on the last page directly asked what lore changes there had been, and how we felt about them. That's the only reason the Necron thing was brought up.
 

Louis_Cypher

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@Louis_Cypher gets it.
Actually man, you were rude on the last page, so don't invoke my name. I just have a policy of not saying anything, if I have nothing positive to say about someone, rather than compounding the bad karma by firing their ego-defence up even more. I walk away, before it becomes some gay rivalry or grudge, since the other person rarely does. When I made an off-the-cuff three-line reply to the question, I didn't expect anyone would take this much exception. Like everything we utter, it was just my perspective.
They are fine. Read the actual lore/novels or even 1d4chan/1d6chan.

Or try playing the game.

Or maybe you can just pretend to do one or the other.
I'll enjoy it however the fuck I want thanks.
 

Mangoose

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@Louis_Cypher gets it.
Actually man, you were rude on the last page, so don't invoke my name. I just have a policy of not saying anything, if I have nothing positive to say about someone, rather than compounding the bad karma by firing their ego-defence up even more. I walk away, before it becomes some gay rivalry or grudge, since the other person rarely does. When I made an off-the-cuff three-line reply to the question, I didn't expect anyone would take this much exception. Like everything we utter, it was just my perspective.
I make off-the-cuff arguments for fun.

I will exaggerated and/or lie if it's funnier that way.ther.
I'll enjoy it however the fuck I want thanks.
No, I do not permit this.
 

RaggleFraggle

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This is why I’m opposed to the existence of IP monopolies like 40k. If the current owner makes changes you don’t like, then you’re stuck with it and have no alternatives. This has been happening to every IP for decades: Star Trek, Star Wars, Doctor Who, Starship Troopers, etc.
If the current owner of 40k makes changes you don't like, the Games Workshop rule is ignore it. Especially since canon that is retconned is still consider canon. Everything that has come from 40k GW is considered canon, even if retconned.
That’s not how fandoms work.
 

Hag

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Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
How do you guys feel about how did the Wh40k lore changed over the years? Which is your favourite edition lore wise?
When I started playing 40k in the early days of v3 lore was very basic. All the cornerstones were already there, the space marines and their primarchs, the Emperor, the Heresy, Chaos and warp travel, most of the factions we know, etc. However it was all very mysterious : the Heresy was a long forgotten war with only major events remembered, the Necrons only appeared as a crude drawing in the "unknown species" page of lore with a "???" for caption - they were, like the Legion of the Damned, hard to find miniatures many player did not even know about. Lore was sprinkled here and there, in White Dwarfs and mostly in books from v2, some never translated in my country and all never ever reprinted. V3 was also the time of retcons, it was a major rewrite of 40k, dropping some 1st and 2nd editions armies and lore to focus on a darker and more coherent core, trying to consolidate the giant sci-fi ripoff that it was into an original universe. I believe that John Blanche and Jes Godwin are almost solely responsible of 40k vision and success and without them it would still be Vietnam War in space.

It also was a bit tongue in cheek, Andy Chamber was making funny faces on pictures, there was a double-page article at the end of the rulebook called "The ultimate secrets of the Galaxy revealed" that were some light-heartened design notes, along with an uncanny drawing of a space marine with a smiling-bird-like helmet. The "Chapter Approved" book that appeared mid-v3 was crammed with rules and funny articles (yes, funny like laughing-out-loud funny), selected reader's mail and the vehicles design rules illustrated by an old Rick Priestley grav-tank made out of a deodorant bottle (and the Machine Spirit was but a rule that allowed Land Raiders to move and shoot even if the crew was incapacitated).

It was all fun and kind of absurd ("there is only war", it did had a funny tone at the time), and only the incredible art was giving soul and life to the underlying silliness. It was a great background to the miniature games that was at the time the only focus of Game Workshop. There were no successful video games nor books, and nobody was interested in the lore itself if he was not already a player.

By the end of V3 the necrons appeared as a regular army, moving from being mysterious invincible robots totally lifted from Terminator and without any lore to space-Egyptian with some boring backstory involving Ancients, unknown at the time, and C'tan who, from the mysterious beings responsible for the Callidus Assassin sword (which was at the time the most deadly weapon around) became some giant space ghosts with ludicrous stats.
Game Workshop also tried plot advancement at the end of V3 with the Black Crusade campaign which was a total flop, but was one of the first tentative to milk the lore for profits. I stopped playing around this time and had to switch to Fantasy Battle, which I never really enjoyed. Soon after the first Dawn of War video game hit the shelves and introduced a whole new population to 40k, and it became a franchise.
 

Mangoose

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This is why I’m opposed to the existence of IP monopolies like 40k. If the current owner makes changes you don’t like, then you’re stuck with it and have no alternatives. This has been happening to every IP for decades: Star Trek, Star Wars, Doctor Who, Starship Troopers, etc.
If the current owner of 40k makes changes you don't like, the Games Workshop rule is ignore it. Especially since canon that is retconned is still consider canon. Everything that has come from 40k GW is considered canon, even if retconned.
That’s not how fandoms work.
Gav Thorpe said:
Often folks ask if Black Library books are ‘canon’. With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy.

The same applies to transference from Black Library back into the gaming supplements. If the developers and other creative folks believe a contribution by an author fits the bill and has an appeal to the audience, why not fold it back into the ‘game’ world – such as Gaunt’s Ghosts or characters from the Gotrek and Felix series. On the other hand, if an author has a bit of a wobbly moment, there’s no pressure to feel that it has to be accepted into the worldview promulgated by the codexes and army books. And beside, there simply isn’t enough room in those gaming books to include everything from the hundreds of novels – good, bad or indifferent as we each see them – so the decision must ultimately rest with the taste of individual readers and gamers.

Whether a particular author’s take on the world matches up with an individual gamer’s or readers is another matter. The fact that each of us is allowed to take possession of that world and envisage it to our own ideal means that it is inevitable our vision will sometimes clash with the vision of others. Such conflict does not render either vision obsolete.

https://mechanicalhamster.wordpress.com/2010/01/21/jumping-the-fence/

Andy Hoare said:
It all stems from the assumption that there’s a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or ‘true’ representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth.

I understand that Tolkien took decades developing his setting before publishing the stories set within it, and still made mistooks. 40k is an ever-evolving setting designed first and foremost to house a really cool game, and as such things don’t always mesh or translate, or they (actually very occasionally) get changed outright. I know which I’d rather be reading and writing

https://www.boomtron.com/grimdark-aaron-dembski-bowden/#comment-633170


George Mann said:
In further conversation, George emphasized that Black Library's main objective was to "tell good stories". He agreed that some points in certain novels could, perhaps, have benefited from the editor's red pen (a certain multilaser was mentioned) but was at pains to explain that, just as each hobbyist tends to interpret the background and facts of the Warhammer and 40k worlds differently, so does each author. In essence, each author represents an "alternative" version of the respective worlds. After pressing him further, he explained that only the Studio material (rulebooks, codexes, army books and suchlike) was canonical in that is HAD to be adhered-to in the plots and background of the novels. There was no obligation on authors to adhere to facts and events as spelled out in Black Library work.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/218542.page#383574

Marc Gascoigne said:
Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about ‘canonical background’ will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history…
Here’s our standard line: Yes it’s all official, but remember that we’re reporting back from a time where stories aren’t always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.

Let’s put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex… and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.
I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a ‘big question’ doesn’t matter. It’s all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is ‘Yes and no’ or perhaps ‘Sometimes.’ And for me, that’s the end of it.
Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note that answer may well be ‘sometimes’ or ‘it varies’ or ‘depends.’

But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies.
It’s a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nuclear war; that nails it for me.

https://adepta-astarte.home.blog/2014/09/29/keep-in-mind-warhammer-and-warhammer-40000-are/
 

Mangoose

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Not to mention every Codex starting "40K IS ABOUT YOUR DUDES AND YOUR IMAGINATINO MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE SO HAVE FUN"
 

Mangoose

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How do you guys feel about how did the Wh40k lore changed over the years? Which is your favourite edition lore wise?
By the end of V3 the necrons appeared as a regular army, moving from being mysterious invincible robots totally lifted from Terminator and without any lore to space-Egyptian with some boring backstory involving Ancients, unknown at the time, and C'tan who, from the mysterious beings responsible for the Callidus Assassin sword (which was at the time the most deadly weapon around) became some giant space ghosts with ludicrous stats.
Got retconned already. The Necrons managed to turn on the C'Tan and defeat them successfully so they reversed position after defeating the Old Ones (supposedly the ones from Fantasy). The Space-Egyptian part comes from this second retcon.
 

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