Incline Warhammer 40,000 Lore Thread

[Mangoose]

Also, in terms of power already demonstrated in lore:
- The "War In Heaven" Old Ones vs. C'Tan were the first major conflict. That doesn't technically say the conflict was the hardest but the situation hints pretty hard towards that. Especially given the name. As well as the ramifications:
- The C'Tan created the Necrons as their army
- The Old Ones as a response created the Eldar and the Orks as their armies
-- Funny: Orks have technological knowledge and psyker capability bred/engineered into their DNA. That's why they use it but don't learn it.
- This War in Heaven created Chaos in what was once a neutral Warp.
- The Eldar created one of the four Chaos Gods. Slaanesh, the This is because the Eldar were a superbly powerful galactic civilization to the point where civilians had nothing to do but do more degenerate things - drugs, orgies, etc.
- Chaos is the biggest threat to civilization right now.

So if you go by this logic.. You'll fry your brain because it's the 40k setting is intentionally convoluted as fuck. I mean, this is when the the Creator makes his Creations stronger than himself. It's very much the opposite of normal logic. So who actually is the stronger - the progenitor or its descendants?

So Necrons > CTan? And Chaos > Old Ones?

Well retcon is that Necrons successfully betrayed the C'Tan. In terms "raw power" the C'Tan however they enforceably changed the Necron race from normal flesh aliens to what they are now. That being said, since the C'Tan are gone, they don't exactly have power lol.

Chaos > Old Ones.. Not in direct terms. I meant that Chaos was resultant in the Warp due to the war, so Chaos was a problem the Old Ones created for their grandchildren to suffer.

That being said, the "nature" of the Warp is completely determined by every living being's thought process... Chaos is essentially you attacking yourself.

None of it makes sense. But it's funny so it stays.

 

[lightbane]

Chaos could be defeated with proper isolation/monitoring of psykers, using proper FTL travel than the Warp, and promoting good values for living to avoid excessive negative emotions. Then Chaos would starve to death.
Easier said than done.

 

[Shig]

promoting good values for living to avoid excessive negative emotions.

This is incorrect, at least as far as total defeat goes. The Chaos gods do not simply feed off of negative emotion, as each of them exemplify some positive emotion(s) as well. While it is true that they get the most power from fervent devotion and excess (Khorne gets more power from mass murder than an honorable non-lethal duel, etc.), even in a perfect world they would still be lingering in the warp, and therefore probably trying to poke and prod at the moderated minds of good values.

Theoretically, you could effectively castrate Chaos. If you could somehow have an entirely lobotomized galaxy, the gods would just have to sit in the warp, waning in power, not really able to do much as the simple-minded masses meander around for eternity. This is obviously not realistic though, and that's the point, The forces of Chaos are the mirror of the living creatures of the universe, the mirror that looks back for that matter, and there is no way to erase them while life still exists.

 

[Mangoose]

Chaos could be defeated with proper isolation/monitoring of psykers, using proper FTL travel than the Warp, and promoting good values for living to avoid excessive negative emotions. Then Chaos would starve to death.
Easier said than done.

But Magnus.

 

[Louis_Cypher]

This is incorrect, at least as far as total defeat goes. The Chaos gods do not simply feed off of negative emotion, as each of them exemplify some positive emotion(s) as well.

Allegedly. Everyone is assuming that random inquisitors, or Chaos followers themselves, constitude a reliable narrator. As I argued a couple of pages back, Chaos might be false advertising. They essentially behave like demons from The Exorcist, not existential forces, and they clearly are organised rather than Chaotic. What else do they lie about?

 

[SpaceWizardz]

This is incorrect, at least as far as total defeat goes. The Chaos gods do not simply feed off of negative emotion, as each of them exemplify some positive emotion(s) as well.

Allegedly. Everyone is assuming that random inquisitors, or Chaos followers themselves, constitude a reliable narrator. As I argued a couple of pages back, Chaos might be false advertising. They essentially behave like demons from The Exorcist, not existential forces, and they clearly are organised rather than Chaotic. What else do they lie about?

This is a "word of god" explanation and consistent with how things work in Fantasy Battle/Age of Sigmar, not a matter of unreliable narrators. 40k fluff just doesn't care to examine these things beyond what's relevant to Space Marines.

 

[Mangoose]

This is incorrect, at least as far as total defeat goes. The Chaos gods do not simply feed off of negative emotion, as each of them exemplify some positive emotion(s) as well.

Allegedly. Everyone is assuming that random inquisitors, or Chaos followers themselves, constitude a reliable narrator. As I argued a couple of pages back, Chaos might be false advertising. They essentially behave like demons from The Exorcist, not existential forces, and they clearly are organised rather than Chaotic. What else do they lie about?

This is a "word of god" explanation and consistent with how things work in Fantasy Battle/Age of Sigmar, not a matter of unreliable narrators. 40k fluff just doesn't care to examine these things beyond what's relevant to Space Marines.

In 40k there is no reliable narrator. Quite a few times a narrator has explained the truth.. Only to admit they were lying at the end of the story. And you don't know which parts they lied about and which parts are true. "True." So lol.

 

[Caim]

The quality of JoyToy stuff varies, from my own limited experience with it. I have Big Blue, and he looks absolutely stunning. I got some Smurfs to accompany him and one of their faces looks like it was painted by an armless ten year old (which I suppose is in the realm of possibility for China's workforce). Luckily, I do not believe in not wearing your fucking helmet, so it didn't affect my display case, but it very well could have, and the return policy on JoyToys is: "lol, gl."

It wouldn't stop me from going back and getting another one I suppose, but I wouldn't feel 100% about it.

Now consider playing a game of Kill Team, but instead of GW models you use JoyToy ones.

 

[Fedora Master]

In 40k there is no reliable narrator.

It's not narrative, it's how GW designs the settings.
Besides, the entire concept of Chaos is cribbed from Moorcock where it very much is possible to fight against it.

Chaos doesn't want a galaxy full of Orks or Tyranids or Necrons because those are all inimical to it.

 

[Shig]

Allegedly.

If you want to go down this route, the whole setting starts to fall apart. It is true that, if you delve deep enough into a some of the lore, you'll get conflicting information. This is because GW employs so many writers and I don't think their editing team is as stringent as they maybe should be. That being said, this idea of the Chaos Gods having some measure of duality about them, has been pretty "common" lore for a long time. People typically use Grandfather Nurgle as an example of this, because he is low hanging (feculent) fruit, but there are other examples as well. Like Khorne allowing, and even going so far as to revive (I believe), a WAAAGH! of Boyz to run around his domain, he seems to enjoy and/or respect them. To your point though, this "common" lore could very easily be erased in the next damn BL book if the author wants it gone.

Kill Team, but instead of GW models you use JoyToy ones.

Fucking power move to walk into your LGS with a tub of action figures and just dump them out all over the table.

 

[lightbane]

his is incorrect, at least as far as total defeat goes. The Chaos gods do not simply feed off of negative emotion, as each of them exemplify some positive emotion(s) as well. While it is true that they get the most power from fervent devotion and excess (Khorne gets more power from mass murder than an honorable non-lethal duel, etc.), even in a perfect world they would still be lingering in the warp, and therefore probably trying to poke and prod at the moderated minds of good values.

While Chaos representing good values has been mentioned from time to time, they focus more on the negatives (heh). In a world with a less turbulent warp, they would have less power to influence the masses, especially if you kill off their remaining Marine legions, which would make things better as long as you keep an eye to prevent another Horus from appearing.

At least until a BL writer retcons everything to make yet another special snowflake, shit on the Emprah even more, or whatever, as mentioned here.

Theoretically, you could effectively castrate Chaos. If you could somehow have an entirely lobotomized galaxy, the gods would just have to sit in the warp, waning in power, not really able to do much as the simple-minded masses meander around for eternity. This is obviously not realistic though, and that's the point, The forces of Chaos are the mirror of the living creatures of the universe, the mirror that looks back for that matter, and there is no way to erase them while life still exists.

Isn't that what Necrons wanted to do with their nullifying pillars? Separate the Warp from the physical world, killing off most living creatures, except for Necrons.

But Magnus.

What about him? He used to be a well-intentioned arrogant nerd who thought there's no such thing as "harmful knowledge", thus corrupting himself to some degree, who later fell due Horus' fuckery and the mad dog burning up his planet, but IIRC BL writers turned him into an arrogant bastard who already made deals with Chaos, thinking himself above others, which means he had it coming. I haven't read the HH books though, only read some spoilers.

To prevent others like him, have them read Lovecraft's bibliography or equivalents in-universe first things first.

I was never that hardcore about the lore though, and nowadays it seems GW is trying to turn WH40k into something less grimdark by having Primarchs coming back. I wonder if the setting will end in another Age of Sigmar fiasco, or the Emprah will resurrect and destroy Chaos forever, or something even dumber.

 

[Caim]

Kill Team, but instead of GW models you use JoyToy ones.

Fucking power move to walk into your LGS with a tub of action figures and just dump them out all over the table.

If you're on something more of a budget you can also look at the McFarlane Toys line. They have both the painted regular and an artist-proof Ymgarl Genestaler at a 7" scale, at about 10 bucks less than the JoyToy Marines:

10 of these lads in total is enough for a Kill Team.

 

[Mangoose]

his is incorrect, at least as far as total defeat goes. The Chaos gods do not simply feed off of negative emotion, as each of them exemplify some positive emotion(s) as well. While it is true that they get the most power from fervent devotion and excess (Khorne gets more power from mass murder than an honorable non-lethal duel, etc.), even in a perfect world they would still be lingering in the warp, and therefore probably trying to poke and prod at the moderated minds of good values.

While Chaos representing good values has been mentioned from time to time, they focus more on the negatives (heh). In a world with a less turbulent warp, they would have less power to influence the masses, especially if you kill off their remaining Marine legions, which would make things better as long as you keep an eye to prevent another Horus from appearing.

At least until a BL writer retcons everything to make yet another special snowflake, shit on the Emprah even more, or whatever, as mentioned here.

Theoretically, you could effectively castrate Chaos. If you could somehow have an entirely lobotomized galaxy, the gods would just have to sit in the warp, waning in power, not really able to do much as the simple-minded masses meander around for eternity. This is obviously not realistic though, and that's the point, The forces of Chaos are the mirror of the living creatures of the universe, the mirror that looks back for that matter, and there is no way to erase them while life still exists.

Isn't that what Necrons wanted to do with their nullifying pillars? Separate the Warp from the physical world, killing off most living creatures, except for Necrons.

But Magnus.

What about him? He used to be a well-intentioned arrogant nerd who thought there's no such thing as "harmful knowledge", thus corrupting himself to some degree, who later fell due Horus' fuckery and the mad dog burning up his planet, but IIRC BL writers turned him into an arrogant bastard who already made deals with Chaos, thinking himself above others, which means he had it coming.

Well he made said deal with Chaos out of good intentions... and he trusted them to stick to their word and not backstab him decades later.

He's not arrogant in terms of ego but in terms of how he treats his sincerely true power. Shortly, instead of being cautious about his powers he's reckless with it. Overestimating his decision making skills, that kinda thing. He didn't get dramatic at the ban on Librarian/psykers in the Space Marine legions, instead just ignoring the ban, genuinely thinking he is making the correct decision.

Magnus doesn't imply he's better but he definitely implies knowing better than everybody else. In an annoying, subconscious way, not intentional. Also, the dickmeasuring "superiority" among the primarchs was about who was the biggest bestest general, which Magnus didn't care about. Besides he secretly believing the warp is stronger anyway.

So major bookworm.

The actual cringey thing is that Magnus feels so bad about what he did to the Emprah's gateway... That he tells his legion to surrender to the Space Wolves so they could receive their due punishment. And when they decide to keep fighting, he just abandons them.

tldr high INT low WIS is Magnus

and because of that his own name is often the butt of a joke

 

[Shig]

Isn't that what Necrons wanted to do with their nullifying pillars? Separate the Warp from the physical world, killing off most living creatures, except for Necrons.

I am not terribly up to date on my Necron lore, but I believe that is a part of what the null fields are for. The Chrome Tomb Kings have long been severed from the warp, and as such don't really view it as anything more than a potential threat for which they have very little to counter it. So they created these null fields to both shield their Tomb Worlds and act as a sort of counter to psychic entities. It is not something explicitly created to combat daemons, but it is clearly beneficial in that respect as well.

If you're on something more of a budget

My brother, I abandoned that dream when I fell into the black hole that is this hobby.

 

[Hag]

Fucking power move to walk into your LGS with a tub of action figures and just dump them out all over the table.

Games Workshop already tried it with its 54mm Inquisitor game but it was a major failure (economically, because the miniatures and rulebook were very nice) as far as I know.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

 

[Shig]

Inquisitor game

Holy shit, what a blast from the past. I remember that game. I think I only ever played it once (almost certainly incorrectly) at my local with a few shop buddies, and we just used our Warhammer minis to play it, because why the fuck not?

I really think that's what doomed it. The bigger models were fun, but I already have marines that I can pretend are Deathwatch. Its spirit lives on in Kill Team though, or so i've heard, I haven't gotten around to playing KT yet.

 

[Gandalf]

How do you guys feel about how did the Wh40k lore changed over the years? Which is your favourite edition lore wise?

 

[Louis_Cypher]

I remember when Necrons were first introduced they felt like an unassailable unstoppable end-of-times force of sheer horror. Now they feel like "Tomb Kings in Space". 40K lore has sometimes changed for the better, but like with most things, there has been a lot of decline, as newer ideas forget the principles of the setting. The Horus Heresy is no longer a dream-like surreal memory of some far off catacylysm, now it has actual surviving characters walking around.

40K has declined more slowly than other settings though; kept stable by the sacrifice of a thousand souls a day.

 

[Pika-Cthulhu]

I remember when Necrons were first introduced they felt like an unassailable unstoppable end-of-times force of sheer horror. Now they feel like "Tomb Kings in Space". 40K lore has sometimes changed for the better, but like with most things, there has been a lot of decline, as newer ideas forget the principles of the setting. The Horus Heresy is no longer a dream-like surreal memory of some far off catacylysm, now it has actual surviving characters walking around.

40K has declined more slowly than other settings though; kept stable by the sacrifice of a thousand souls a day.

Just have your army pop out of a warp storm from a previous edition, they fight with those rules because thats the era they are from

 

[NecroLord]

"The oldest legends tell of the noble Sanguinius, sire of the Blood Angels. They tell of his grace and beauty; his love of humanity; his pure soul and unwavering loyalty to the Emperor. Some claim that he had the power of prophecy, that his eye saw along the voiding tracks into the future. It is even maintained that he foresaw the terrible things to come, and was aware of his own doom long before the Emperor's realm was shaken to its foundations by the treacherous Warmaster. If this is true, then Sanguinius' acts are even more selfless because of it."
"Brave Sanguinius faced the Chaos Warmaster in his lair, when that foul beast was at the height of its powers. Even before he was imbued with the false energies of the Dark Gods, the traitorous Fiend was all but unstoppable. Yet, knowing this, noble Sanguinius still met it blade to blade, eye to eye. When the Treacherous Serpent whispered promises of glory and strength in his ear, Sanguinius did not listen. Even as the Great Traitor was poised on the brink of infernal victory, the Lord of the Blood Angels was not swayed, though he knew it would cost him his life. Like all true servants of the Emperor, the Noble Angel knew that his soul would be forever with the Emperor; a reward far greater than any in this mortal world."
"And so it was that they fought - the Angel and the Beast. Titanic must have been that struggle, between those two gods amongst men. Long must they have rained blows upon each other, until it seemed that the life of the universe itself hung in the balance. And yet, for all his glorious might at arms, and his noble and pure mind, Sanguinius was bested. The despicable trickeries of Chaos were his undoing. But at that last moment, even as the blade of death waited to strike him, Sanguinius would not turn from the path of Light. Thus it was that the noble Sangunius, Lord of the Blood Angels, passed from this world. He who was everything a man should be was taken from us by the Darkness. A thousand times a thousand years of lamenting will never atone for our loss."
"Therefore remember proud Sanguinius, young acolytes, when you are faced with hardship. When the armour of your faith is buckled and torn, see in your mind that magnificent hero. Think upon his deeds and be humble, for his like will never walk the galaxy again."

– Chaplain Lemartes' sermon to the Adeptus on the Cult of Sangunius

 

[Mangoose]

I remember when Necrons were first introduced they felt like an unassailable unstoppable end-of-times force of sheer horror.

I remember them being unstoppable because they would resurrect when they died.

Did that stop happening?

 

[Louis_Cypher]

What I meant is lore-wise, they were portrayed as endless in numbers, barely any having awoken yet, millions of years more advanced than any other faction, and united in purpose. Another existential horror on the level of the Tyranids. Now they are broken into dynasties, disunited, etc.

 

[Mangoose]

What I meant is lore-wise, they were portrayed as endless in numbers, barely any having awoken yet, millions of years more advanced than any other faction, and united in purpose. Another existential horror on the level of the Tyranids. Now they are broken into dynasties, disunited, etc.

Yeah you're repeating skub that's been repeated for over a decade.

They are also barely haven woken up yet. They are united in purpose - their 1# most powerful king went on a journey, didn't expect them to have woken up yet. Then he saw they are awoken, he's regathering the kingdom.

They are fine. Read the actual lore/novels or even 1d4chan/1d6chan.

Or try playing the game.

Or maybe you can just pretend to do one or the other.

We don't need another existential horror on the level of the Tyranids, specifically because they are an unthinking hive/hordemind.. 40k isn't about doing the same thing again. It's about having a new type of absurdity to deal with every time. Otherwise it's stupid, would be edgy, not grimdark.

 

[Mangoose]

"The oldest legends tell of the noble Sanguinius, sire of the Blood Angels. They tell of his grace and beauty; his love of humanity; his pure soul and unwavering loyalty to the Emperor. Some claim that he had the power of prophecy, that his eye saw along the voiding tracks into the future. It is even maintained that he foresaw the terrible things to come, and was aware of his own doom long before the Emperor's realm was shaken to its foundations by the treacherous Warmaster. If this is true, then Sanguinius' acts are even more selfless because of it."
"Brave Sanguinius faced the Chaos Warmaster in his lair, when that foul beast was at the height of its powers. Even before he was imbued with the false energies of the Dark Gods, the traitorous Fiend was all but unstoppable. Yet, knowing this, noble Sanguinius still met it blade to blade, eye to eye. When the Treacherous Serpent whispered promises of glory and strength in his ear, Sanguinius did not listen. Even as the Great Traitor was poised on the brink of infernal victory, the Lord of the Blood Angels was not swayed, though he knew it would cost him his life. Like all true servants of the Emperor, the Noble Angel knew that his soul would be forever with the Emperor; a reward far greater than any in this mortal world."
"And so it was that they fought - the Angel and the Beast. Titanic must have been that struggle, between those two gods amongst men. Long must they have rained blows upon each other, until it seemed that the life of the universe itself hung in the balance. And yet, for all his glorious might at arms, and his noble and pure mind, Sanguinius was bested. The despicable trickeries of Chaos were his undoing. But at that last moment, even as the blade of death waited to strike him, Sanguinius would not turn from the path of Light. Thus it was that the noble Sangunius, Lord of the Blood Angels, passed from this world. He who was everything a man should be was taken from us by the Darkness. A thousand times a thousand years of lamenting will never atone for our loss."
"Therefore remember proud Sanguinius, young acolytes, when you are faced with hardship. When the armour of your faith is buckled and torn, see in your mind that magnificent hero. Think upon his deeds and be humble, for his like will never walk the galaxy again."

– Chaplain Lemartes' sermon to the Adeptus on the Cult of Sangunius

Lol Sanguinius with his poor wings. Always needing to deny his divinity to some (<- Hey, there's his Official Emperor Trait). Always seeing them as warp mutation. Always set as king but never wants it.

And if he appears in public he's basically forced to do a speech and then an aerial display.

I have looked into your faces and seen what this war has cost all of you. I have followed the flow of battles that each of you have survived, to stand here on the final battlement. I see everything you have endured, those stories written in the light of your eyes. Now the Warmaster offers you the lie of life, promising a mercy his forces are incapable of showing, if we will abandon this last wall. And it falls to me, here and now, to tell you to stand against him one more time. To give everything you have, even your lives, if it will hold this rampart for another day, another hour, another second. That is what the moment demands of me, is it not? That I beg you to make one last sacrifice?’

No.

No. I will not ask it of you. You have already given everything. You have already done everything asked of you a hundred times and more. You have suffered through a war of unimaginable darkness, one that has demanded more from you than any soldier in the history of our species has been forced to give. The fact you still live, that you still fight… I cannot conceive of the courage and resilience it requires for you to face this dawn and look to the horizon with a rifle in your hands.
[...]

There are legends about me, I hear them whispered among you every day, that I know the moment of my own death. The stories say this gives me courage, that I feel no fear because I know I cannot yet be slain. Here is the truth of that tale.

That prophesied death is coming. Today. Tonight. Tomorrow. I know not the When or the How, only that I feel fate’s breath on the back of my neck. I do not remain here out of immortality’s courage. I remain here because, if I am to die, I choose this death. I choose to die with my back to the last door. I choose to give my life to buy another hour, or a minute, or even a single second of grace to those who cannot be here fighting with me. I choose to die here because I do not believe I have yet given all I can.

Someone must stand and fight, and if I have but one choice left, I will make it now. I will stand. I will fight. I will hold this wall, knowing that the Thirteenth Legion makes for Terra with all speed, and if they cannot bring salvation, they will bring retribution. Whether I am alone or whether a hundred thousand of you are by my side, when the Warmaster’s horde descends upon this wall, they will find me waiting for them with a blade in hand. Not because I can win, but because it is right. I do not know what delusion grips those out there, who were once our brothers and sisters. But I know it is right to oppose them.

I have spoken enough. You need hear no more of my fears and confessions. All that remains is for me to ask… Will you run?

And then he cut down a Titan.