Incline Warhammer 40,000 Lore Thread

[Caim]

The HH books ruined the mystique of the Emperor. They just made him look like a complete retard dad, instead of the freakishly old, humanoid abomination that he is.

Writers fumble the ball a lot when it comes to writing immortal characters. That's because people just assume that immortals behave like regular humans, but just a little bit more jaded, smarter, whatever.

IMO, the Emperor is better characterized as a near-eldritch horror that outwardly is a messianic figure. He should be cloaked in several layers of mystery. We should have no idea what he was planning.

Hear, hear!
Also:
"The Emperor battles daily with forces beyond understanding, yet you expect him to retain a mortal sympathy? He walks the paths of eternity; be thankful he is able to converse with you at all."
Can't remember from what book this originates, but I guess it is from a short story.

To further elaborate, that's Malcador's quote from a dialogue he had with Jaghatai about the nature of the Emperor and why was he so inscrutable. Still don't know the book though.

The primarch laughed, but there was no mirth in it. He tapped an armoured finger idly on the lip of one of the tombs. 'I wonder some days why you gave us minds at all. Machines would have given you less grief.'

'Less grief, surely. Less joy, too.' Malcador sighed, and wrapped his cloak tighter around his whip-thin body. 'You have found it hard to understand your Father. You wish Him to be more… intelligible. I understand that. But do not be seduced by the scale of His power - He has sacrificed more than any of us, and He does not use it for Himself. A man may pursue a single goal and become the master of that endeavour, only to find himself weakened in all other pursuits. The Emperor battles daily with forces beyond understanding, yet you expect Him to retain a mortal sympathy.' The Sigillite shook his head. 'He walks the paths of eternity. Be thankful He is able to converse with you at all.'

The Khan thought on that, staring pensively at the tomb. 'And what is gained,' he said, eventually, 'if we lose what we are? What victory is that?'

'The only one possible,' said Malcador.

Jaghatai Khan: Warhawk of Chogoris.

 

[EruDaan]

A mysterious eldritch horror with a truly unknowable agenda would have been amazing.

Never have a POV or convo of someone in his presence that isn't a primarch. Make it more isolated in that way. Whenevr orders are issued to normies its thru his selected custodians. When his presence is made public, crazy warp shenanigans occur, and theres a palpable feeling of dread everywhere.

Maybe not dread but awe. Raw and sheer awe that makes everyone in a cirvle of several hundred feet around him want to kneel and weep with adoration and love. He should be made the Father of Mankind and not an c'thullu like thing that could explode in an shower of octopoid tentacles, multi jawed and teethed maws and myriads of reptilian eyes at any moment. That'd be fucking silly and fucking stupid...

Except if you wanna be THAT kind of edgy grimdark goth boy who wants the emperor aka Neoth to be just another eldritch horror from beyond that uses mankind to ascend to the status of just another chaos god... which he could become by being just the fucking father and savior of mankind. And if someone would make the gamble to finally kill him off so he can ascend. But that'd be not edgy enough.

 

[NecroLord]

A mysterious eldritch horror with a truly unknowable agenda would have been amazing.

Never have a POV or convo of someone in his presence that isn't a primarch. Make it more isolated in that way. Whenevr orders are issued to normies its thru his selected custodians. When his presence is made public, crazy warp shenanigans occur, and theres a palpable feeling of dread everywhere.

Maybe not dread but awe. Raw and sheer awe that makes everyone in a cirvle of several hundred feet around him want to kneel and weep with adoration and love. He should be made the Father of Mankind and not an c'thullu like thing that could explode in an shower of octopoid tentacles, multi jawed and teethed maws and myriads of reptilian eyes at any moment. That'd be fucking silly and fucking stupid...

Except if you wanna be THAT kind of edgy grimdark goth boy who wants the emperor aka Neoth to be just another eldritch horror from beyond that uses mankind to ascend to the status of just another chaos god... which he could become by being just the fucking father and savior of mankind. And if someone would make the gamble to finally kill him off so he can ascend. But that'd be not edgy enough.

He doesn't have to be a tentacle abomination, but an eldritch being, an utterly inscrutable Ubermensch, well, if that Ubermensch is literally a fucking deity, or is on its way to becoming one, what with the amount of worship he receives from the Imperium.

 

[Popiel]

A mysterious eldritch horror with a truly unknowable agenda would have been amazing.

Isn't it however how they're actually writing him in 40k at the moment? Guilliman as far as I know had fuck all idea what the hell he was talking with besides some vague ideas that it was his Father long, long time ago.

 

[Tyranicon]

A mysterious eldritch horror with a truly unknowable agenda would have been amazing.

Isn't it however how they're actually writing him in 40k at the moment? Guilliman as far as I know had fuck all idea what the hell he was talking with besides some vague ideas that it was his Father long, long time ago.

As with everything 40k related, I suppose it really depends on the writer. I'll leave it to others to discuss. I only dipped my toes in the Horus Heresy and noped out pretty quick due to eye-rolling quality of the books.

This was years ago, so maybe they got better.

Peeps who read it, is The Master of Mankind worth it?

 

[Rocket-Propelled Game]

Miniature giant space hamsters?

Minsc as a Space Marine.
What Chapter though?
I have him figured for a Space Wolf, but maybe that's just me.

He reminds me a lot of Vulkan, if Vulkan had comical amounts of brain damage.

 

[Popiel]

As with everything 40k related, I suppose it really depends on the writer. I'll leave it to others to discuss. I only dipped my toes in the Horus Heresy and noped out pretty quick due to eye-rolling quality of the books.

This was years ago, so maybe they got better.

Peeps who read it, is The Master of Mankind worth it?

I was lead to believe by people who actually read these books semi-up-to-date that Siege of Terra books are in general better than previous Horus Heresy series, but I won't vouch for that.

TMoM is average. It provides an interesting perspective on the Emperor, though I think it was TMoM which solidified new canon version of him, that is a very deluded, very powerful, very autistic yet ultimately very mundane human being with many, many basic human flaws (and, by the way, one which solidified a new take on him, according to which he never really cared about any of his sons, which is quite a departure from the old canon and which makes me think how they'll solve the Horus duel issue... old canon route won't work).

 

[Storyfag]

Miniature giant space hamsters?

Minsc as a Space Marine.
What Chapter though?
I have him figured for a Space Wolf, but maybe that's just me.

He reminds me a lot of Vulkan, if Vulkan had comical amounts of brain damage.

Sorry, Vulkan is Officialy Jamaican forever. Minsc could be a young Salamander tho.

 

[NecroLord]

Peeps who read it, is The Master of Mankind worth it?

I heard ADB really makes the Emperor look like a retarded, spiteful and bloodthirsty monster.

 

[hayst]

Sir David Attenborough reading an excerpt from The Lords of Silence

 

[Caim]

Oh boy, GW released the 10e rules for Space Marines and Tyranids for free! Can't wait to see what they did with my Nids and-

...

look how they massacred my boy

 

[Louis_Cypher]

I like piecing together timelines so tried to put the dates of a few notable wars or mission, from 40K video games, into context:

• - 139.M41 / The Gothic War (Battlefleet Gothic: Armada)
• - 589.M41 / Cleansing of the Sin of Damnation (Space Hulk)
• - 941.M41 / Second War for Armageddon (Warhammer 40,000: Armageddon)
• - ???.M41 / War for Tartarus (Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War)
• - ???.M41 / War for Sub-Sector Aurelia (Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War II)
• - ???.M41 / War for Graia (Warhammer 40,000: Kill Team, Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine)
• - 999.M41 / The 13th Black Crusade (Battlefleet Gothic: Armada II)
• - ???.M42 / War for Gladius Prime (Warhammer 40,000: Gladius - Relics of War)
• - ???.M42 / Explorator Mission to Silva Tenebris (Warhammer 40,000: Mechanicus)

It's not very complete. Sadly, most of the games are never given a date, which would contextualise them a lot. You can judge roughly where some of them are, by looking at wargear, when the game was released, and more recently whether the Era Indomitus has begun. Gladius and Mechanicus are set in Era Indomitus if I remember. Darktide's Inquisitorial mission to Atoma Prime might be too. I'm guessing things from the Second Edition/1990s like Final Liberation were very early, perhaps much closer to the Second War for Armageddon.

 

[Caim]

I like piecing together timelines so tried to put the dates of a few notable wars or mission, from 40K video games, into context:

• - 139.M41 / The Gothic War (Battlefleet Gothic: Armada)
• - 589.M41 / Cleansing of the Sin of Damnation (Space Hulk)
• - 941.M41 / Second War for Armageddon (Warhammer 40,000: Armageddon)
• - ???.M41 / War for Tartarus (Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War)
• - ???.M41 / War for Sub-Sector Aurelia (Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War II)
• - ???.M41 / War for Graia (Warhammer 40,000: Kill Team, Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine)
• - 999.M41 / The 13th Black Crusade (Battlefleet Gothic: Armada II)
• - ???.M42 / War for Gladius Prime (Warhammer 40,000: Gladius - Relics of War)
• - ???.M42 / Explorator Mission to Silva Tenebris (Warhammer 40,000: Mechanicus)

It's not very complete. Sadly, most of the games are never given a date, which would contextualise them a lot. You can judge roughly where some of them are, by looking at wargear, when the game was released, and more recently whether the Era Indomitus has begun. Gladius and Mechanicus are set in Era Indomitus if I remember. Darktide's Inquisitorial mission to Atoma Prime might be too. I'm guessing things from the Second Edition/1990s like Final Liberation were very early, perhaps much closer to the Second War for Armageddon.

I got curious and looked at Kais to see where he appears on the timeline... except the dates aren't adding up. His page claims that Dark Crusade happened in 740.M41, and that Kais was a student of Commander Puretide, who died in 731.M41. Now that all adds up, except Puretide was in command of the Tau forces during the Damocles Crusade... which happaned in 742.M41. Eleven years after his death.

My point is don't bother because the 40k timeline is all sorts of fucked.

 

[Louis_Cypher]

My point is don't bother

I find that when I temporarily lose interest in a hobby, or fictional setting, it's usually because something has become fuzzy or confused in my mind, and gets in the way of the original appeal. In the case of 40K, sometimes some of the 'internet hyperbole' becomes so over-the-top, that I can't understand the basic 'rationale' or motives of factions any more (let's say). When that happens, I find getting the logic straight in my head again, helps rekindle my original appreciation. Forums are good to sound out your thinking.

Right now, just prior to the 10th Edition launch, I found I was not really understanding why, for example, the Imperium doesn't just wipe out all Eldar Exodites and crush the T'au Empire. Could a single sector Battlefleet, take down the entiie T'au Empire? Just how xenophobic is the Imperium of Man? Will it do something like that on principle? Just how precious is galactic real estate, and how much does the Imperium control, compared to say Exodite worlds? What do incursions against the Imperium generally look like? I tried to put major wars into a timeline, to see how logistics generally works.

• - 139.M41 \ The 12th Black Crusade, aka The Gothic War
• - 392.M41 \ The Macharian Crusade
• - 444.M41 \ First War for Armageddon (Imperium vs. Chaos)
• - 700.M41 \ [TAU FIRST CONTACT]
• - 745.M41 \ [TYRANID FIRST CONTACT]
• - 745.M41 \ First Tyrannic War
• - 941.M41 \ Second War for Armageddon (Imperium vs. Orks)
• - 990.M41 \ Second Tyrannic War
• - 997.M41 \ Third Tyrannic War
• - 998.M41 \ Third War for Armageddon (Imperium vs Orks)
• - 999.M41 \ The 13th Black Crusade

So I looked at what a war generally is, in terms of scope. I remember the Armageddon campaign getting absolutely tons of focus back in early 40K lore, during Second Edition. Despite appearances above, it seems important wars are usually single planetary invasions by xenos, such as Armageddon or Graia. Not huge sector-wide space campaigns like a Black Crusade; it takes a Waaagh to leverage enough Orks for one planetary invasion, and a single planet is hard to win. I looked at why the Imperium leaves Exodites and such alone. A waste of resources, to grind down Exodites, then centuries of war against Craftworld reprisals, via the Webway, the fan consensus seems to be. Same for the T'au; "within Mankind's capability but unneccecary". It made me think that the Imperium is probably more a classic space opera faction, tolerant of near-humans, more rarely contesting worlds, than we are sometimes lead to believe.



We lean heavily on medievalist imagary in 40K fandom, but sometimes I think this can be at the detriment of Warhammer 40,000's logic, it's strong hard science fiction grounding. Back in the 1990s, in White Dwarf, you would see Astartes go on normal 'bug hunts', scout missions, escort duties; Space Marines are infantry at the end of the day. The tie-ins can sometimes inflate them to being nigh-superheroic. It can be hard to remember scale, logistical realism, why and where they are deployed. It's not just epics; or Astartes would be boring. Some tie-ins lean a bit too far into high fantasy.

 

[lightbane]

You're right, WH40K was kidnapped by the insane fandom, it tends to happen. The IG has entire divisions of a humans, that can vary from catgirls, to near mutants, to actual mutants, and borderline human aliens at the most extreme cases. RTs can recruit xenos without issues, and the Dark Angels use xenos as assistants IIRC.

 

[Hag]

You're right, WH40K was kidnapped by the insane fandom, it tends to happen. The IG has entire divisions of a humans, that can vary from catgirls, to near mutants, to actual mutants, and borderline human aliens at the most extreme cases. RTs can recruit xenos without issues, and the Dark Angels use xenos as assistants IIRC.

Not to mention the Inquisitor rules and lore introduced Imperium agents using various mutants and even demon-possessed recruits.
In the end the Imperium is not an orderly place. As long as planet governors are not actively traitors nobody gives a shit about what's going on. Important planets are home to hundred of billions souls with assorted armies that can very well defend themselves, and sending the big guns such as Space Marines or Exterminatus is a very rare occurrence. Biggest threat to humankind is its huge sprawling size that can't be controlled and that relies for survival on the dimming power of some dude that got pwnd. It's all survival, swatting aliens will only waste resources.

 

[Caim]

Right now, just prior to the 10th Edition launch, I found I was not really understanding why, for example, the Imperium doesn't just wipe out all Eldar Exodites and crush the T'au Empire. Could a single sector Battlefleet, take down the entiie T'au Empire? Just how xenophobic is the Imperium of Man? Will it do something like that on principle? Just how precious is galactic real estate, and how much does the Imperium control, compared to say Exodite worlds? What do incursions against the Imperium generally look like? I tried to put major wars into a timeline, to see how logistics generally works.

If the Imperium really wanted to they could wipe out any threat no issue.

The issue is that if they were to throw enough military at the Tau to wipe them out the moment they came back they found out most of a Segmentum had its ass eaten by the Tyranids. Start stomping out Tomb Worlds one by one? Have fun getting your shit kicked in by the Orks on the other side of the galaxy. Saturation bomb the webway to get rid of the Dark Eldar? Good job, now there's fucking Daemons everywhere.

The Imperium is in an impossible stalemate where there's so many things to balance against one another that they can't really do anything against any of their adversaries without it costing them dearly in the long run. This can come both from other factions, or in some cases from the faction itself. If for example the Necrons were about to be wiped out, they might verry well use that fancy sun controlling machine they have to blow up any Imperial planet that they know of, consequences be damned. If the Eldar got really pissed off, they might very well rip another hole into the Immaterium to fuck with humanity. The Dark Eldar will probably start express mailing black holes to every planet that they can get their sweaty little hands on, and good luck waging total war on Khorne.

 

[Louis_Cypher]

'Artificial' stalemates can come off as trite, featuring boring MMO-like "game logic", if Games Workshop isn't careful. Like World of Warcraft or Star Wars: The Old Republic fluff, where a stalemate is worked into the lore to allow Horde vs Alliance to go on indefinately. An artificial Cold War, just so that the galaxy can continue fighting in a perpetual stalemate, is vastly over-done in geekdom. However, I also don't like big narrative events, like the Great Rift, turning a setting into something that lives or dies on the strength of it's author's (often poor) narrative choices. I've heard that case made before; you shouldn't ever introduce an ongoing narrative, but rather leave it as a sandbox for the player's own narratives.

So what is better than both artificial stalemates, and also big scripted events IMO? I prefer to think that each faction can hold it's own against the Imperium through military skill and vigilance. Like a rival nation-state; all factions remain on high alert. The Imperium simply can't take them down. Craftworld Eldar can hold their homes, and perhaps the Exodite Worlds too. Necrons are remote enough in places like Ultima Segmentum, that newly awakening Tomb Worlds can hold their own. Ork Empires have an economy beyond war. This doesn't, however, explain the Tau Empire, which is a tiny power, or the survival of numerous minor aliens, including prospective Tau members, like the Kroot or Vespids.

So my choice, for how to explain the survival of aliens across 10,000 years of a human-dominated galaxy, in which Mankind's capital ships must have visited tens of millions of star systems, is that the Imperium is less xenophobic than it seems, tolerates xenos with human-like civilizations, and Total War is rarer than thought. More like Star Trek or Star Wars. The Imperium is okay with human-like cultures surviving, such as Tau and Eldar. The Imperium has even been known even to work with Mankind's oldest enemy, the Orks, when a larger threat such as Tyranids emerge. I can't remember, but perhaps there have even been instances of Ork Freebooters being hired by the Imperium, in old 1st and 2nd Editions.

Accepted but as Inferior Subjects:

• - Ratlings
• - Squats
• - Ogryns
• - Jokaero

Accepted but as Political Rivals:

• - Eldar Craftworlds
• - Eldar Exodites
• - Eldar Corsairs
• - Eldar Harlequins
• - Leagues of Votann
• - Kroot Warbands

Unacceptable Political Rivals:

• - Ork Empires
• - Tau Empire
• - Dark Eldar Kabals
• - Hrud Infestations

Existential Dangers, Purge at All Costs:

• - Chaos Entities
• - Tyranids
• - Necrons
• - C'Tan
• - Umbra
• - Enslavers

Questions remain. Some of them would clear up the setting a lot. How much of the galaxy does the Imperium really control? A million worlds does not tell us much unless we know if the territory between is also under Mankind's control, and how much geographical volume this constitutes. How is their territory dispersed? Is the Imperium contiguous or scattered one star among a hundred unmapped ones? What percentage of the galaxy is under Ork control by comparison with the Imperium? Does Ork territory intersect Mankind's territory? What percentage of the galaxy are Exodite Worlds? How hidden or open are Exodite worlds? Are minor xenos species just scattered everywhere inside the Imperium? Are Tomb Worlds relatively remote, or hidden?

 

[Louis_Cypher]

Out of interest, I was looking at the contents of past Warhammer 40,000 starter sets to compare with 10th Edition. Orks, Tyranids and Chaos have two appearances each now. I thought 9th was pretty cool, for having Necrons and updating their range. I have some miniatures but never played much; more interested in the video games and Black Library stuff as I'm sure others also are.

• - 1st: N/A
• - 2nd: Space Marines vs. Orks
• - 3rd: Space Marines vs. Dark Eldar
• - 4th: Space Marines vs Tyranids
• - 5th: Space Marines vs. Orks
• - 6th: Space Marines vs. Chaos
• - 7th: N/A
• - 8th: Space Marines vs. Chaos
• - 9th: Space Marines vs. Necrons
• - 10th: Space Marines vs. Tyranids

 

[Louis_Cypher]

Perhaps the galaxy is something like this, in terms of a political map? Just an inaccurate scetch.

- 400,000,000,000 stars in the Milky Way Galaxy

Mankind:

- 100,000,000,000 stars under Imperium's borders

- 1,000,000 worlds inhabited by Mankind

- 50,000,000,000 star systems explored/mapped, numerous listening posts, automated outposts

Eldar:

- 12-40 craftworlds under Eldar control

- 1,000 Exodite worlds inhabited by Eldar Exodites

- 100 colony worlds created by Craftworld Eldar

Dark Eldar:

- 1 megastructure under Dark Eldar control

Orks:

- 20,000,000,000 stars under Ork Empires' borders

- 400,000 worlds inhabited by Orkoids

Necrons:

- 80,000,000 stars under Necron dynasties' borders

- 10,000 tomb worlds inhabited by dormant Necrons

Chaos:

- 50,000 inhabited, largely tangible or corporeal worlds, in the Eye of Terror

- 15,000 inhabited, largely tangible or corporeal worlds, in the Malestrom

- 50 space hulks used as bases by warbands

Just a completely speculative bit of political/demographic mapping; probably the Imperium is nowhere near this neat, and the numbers are totally off, being a fantasy conjured out of thin air. The Imperium faces more enemies because of it's size, bordering everyone, but each Ork Empire, plus Chaos region, is a defencible rival nation state, and Eldar Craftworlds can project huge military power due to the Webway, containing billions of souls each, so serve as an umbrella over the Exodite Worlds. Total war isn't prevented so much because the Imperium is unbeatable, or overwhealming, but might lose another segmentum to rivals; but rather because each major Ork and Chaos Empire can legitimately hold it's own against the Imperium. Sieges are hard, territory costly to gain for everyone; Ork Warbosses are not dumb dey "systamatakilly" patrol their borders with fleets of Kill Kroozas, Tomb Worlds are dug in, and the Eye of Terror is fortified with layers of Imperium-grade planetary defence.

 

[Storyfag]

This doesn't, however, explain the Tau Empire, which is a tiny power, or the survival of numerous minor aliens, including prospective Tau members, like the Kroot or Vespids.

Some surely remain undiscovered by the Imperium, thus explaining their continued survival. Warp travel is not reliable.

 

[NecroLord]

Warp travel is not reliable.

 

[Storyfag]

What percentage of the galaxy is under Ork control by comparison with the Imperium?

It has been stated the Orks outnumber Mankind, and would swap the Imperium away if they were ever united.

 

[lightbane]

This doesn't, however, explain the Tau Empire, which is a tiny power, or the survival of numerous minor aliens, including prospective Tau members, like the Kroot or Vespids.

Some surely remain undiscovered by the Imperium, thus explaining their continued survival. Warp travel is not reliable.

They ARE discovered and taken into account, but there are so many threats outside that the Cau are left alone.
Fuck Tau and their stupidly high rate of fire guns!

What percentage of the galaxy is under Ork control by comparison with the Imperium?

It has been stated the Orks outnumber Mankind, and would swap the Imperium away if they were ever united.

Not only Mankind. Enough orks could outnumber all but the 'Nids, perhaps.
I don't buy into that whole "Beast" nonsense though. IMO regular orks are scary enough without needing to turn them into mutant super space mahrines. IIRC originally the thing the Old Ones had over the orks were specialized orks that controlled multiple orks at once.

 

[La vie sexuelle]

This doesn't, however, explain the Tau Empire, which is a tiny power, or the survival of numerous minor aliens, including prospective Tau members, like the Kroot or Vespids.

Some surely remain undiscovered by the Imperium, thus explaining their continued survival. Warp travel is not reliable.

They ARE discovered and taken into account, but there are so many threats outside that the Cau are left alone.
Fuck Tau and their stupidly high rate of fire guns!

What percentage of the galaxy is under Ork control by comparison with the Imperium?

It has been stated the Orks outnumber Mankind, and would swap the Imperium away if they were ever united.

Not only Mankind. Enough orks could outnumber all but the 'Nids, perhaps.
I don't buy into that whole "Beast" nonsense though. IMO regular orks are scary enough without needing to turn them into mutant super space mahrines. IIRC originally the thing the Old Ones had over the orks were specialized orks that controlled multiple orks at once.

Most of the modern lore looks for me, a layman, like jumping the shark. Deadly serious jumping.