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Warcraft III: Reforged - now with lowest user metacritic score of all time

whydoibother

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Codex Year of the Donut
Warcraft peaked with 2.
I liked Warcraft III and its expansion the most out of all the Warcraft games. Good gameplay, good UI, good visual and audio presentation, good netcode, good campaign, good modding tools, and obviously full of SOUL with all the easter eggs and the outro song.
 

Zboj Lamignat

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I'm p. sure that a strictly 2d game running at locked 640x480 with piss poor animations/fx and no physics in sight was not ahead of proverbial shit in 1998, but you do you.
 

whydoibother

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Look at people still claiming that post D1 blizzard games had good production values, lol.
Starcraft was way ahead of its competition in everything, including production values.
Starcraft was ahead in UI, responsiveness, the story based campaign, and just polish and stability. It wasn't innovative, it wasn't better looking or better sounding, it wasn't original.
Blizzard was known then for taking the best ideas from its competition, and packing them in a superior product. I'd argue also to appealing to the RPG crowd with non-RPG games, via story, the perception of choice and consequence, having characters instead of just Swordsman, Rifleman, etc.
 

Black_Willow

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This is Starcraft:


This is its competition from the same year:


Starcraft clearly has better looking terrain, sprites and animations, and better VO and sound FX. This is one of the reasons it got so popular back in the days, it simply looked and sounded better than other RTS games.
 

Zboj Lamignat

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That's your example? :lol: And not like it's self-defeating one when it comes to "being ahead of the curve". Because as much of a second string boring cutout representative of a genre already well on a crash course with a concrete wall as KKND2 was, at least it mastered marvelous technology of scaling res, up to a fairly standard at that point 1024x768. But that's as far as you can go with SC - compare it to other basic 2d rts based on personal preferences and even on that arena it hardly shines - something like Dark Colony is a way sexier game imo, and it came out a year earlier.

When it comes to an actual attempt at a serious discussion, SC came out at a time when the market already saw multiple rt strategy/tactical games with: fairly intricate physics systems with huge impact on gameplay, rt lighting, dynamic camera (including completely changing perspective), high resolutions (including games that are natively able to scale to most resolutions even today), terrain manipulation/destruction, fully utilizing 3d acceleration (never was a fan, but that's beside the point) and so on and so forth and then we can start going into details of how, for example, pathetically "air" combat is represented in SC. And some of these games were already on a market for quite some time when SC launched. So, as much as you love "great animations" of thicc marine running and "great fx" of psi storm, stop making yourself look silly.

Starcraft was ahead in UI, responsiveness, the story based campaign, and just polish and stability. It wasn't innovative, it wasn't better looking or better sounding, it wasn't original.
Blizzard was known then for taking the best ideas from its competition, and packing them in a superior product. I'd argue also to appealing to the RPG crowd with non-RPG games, via story, the perception of choice and consequence, having characters instead of just Swordsman, Rifleman, etc.
I'd strongly contest the UI claim tbf. 12 units max at a time is enough to ridicule it, but when SC came out I was way too used to different forms of automation, queuing, selection, orders, formations etc that prestigious 1997 releases allowed for. Of course there's an argument that SC didn't need any of that, being the game that it was, but still.
 

whydoibother

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I'd strongly contest the UI claim tbf. 12 units max at a time is enough to ridicule it, but when SC came out I was way too used to different forms of automation, queuing, selection, orders, formations etc that prestigious 1997 releases allowed for. Of course there's an argument that SC didn't need any of that, being the game that it was, but still.
Do you mean Age of Empires and Myth? Or older stuff, like C&C or Dune? Those are the period RTS I've played, and they all control worse than Starcraft, and the UI isn't as good.
And the 12 unit limit has to do with Blizzard's lean towards RPG, both in scale, in characterization, in unit abilities, etc.
 

Black_Willow

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That's your example? :lol: And not like it's self-defeating one when it comes to "being ahead of the curve". Because as much of a second string boring cutout representative of a genre already well on a crash course with a concrete wall as KKND2 was, at least it mastered marvelous technology of scaling res, up to a fairly standard at that point 1024x768. But that's as far as you can go with SC - compare it to other basic 2d rts based on personal preferences and even on that arena it hardly shines - something like Dark Colony is a way sexier game imo, and it came out a year earlier.
Dark Colony being "sexy" you say???

With sphincter-like buildings, creatures shooting poop-balls out of their asses and gray pencil-legged aliens running around pantless, but in colorfull shirts?
maxresdefault.jpg


I don't want to know what other things you find "sexy"...
 

Zboj Lamignat

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Great post. You're probably a big guy already, time to learn that making even more of a dumbass of yourself when you didn't have nothing to say in the first place is not the smart choice. It's fine to stick to butthurt rating mashing.

Do you mean Age of Empires and Myth? Or older stuff, like C&C or Dune? Those are the period RTS I've played, and they all control worse than Starcraft, and the UI isn't as good.
And the 12 unit limit has to do with Blizzard's lean towards RPG, both in scale, in characterization, in unit abilities, etc.
TA and Dark Reign are the best examples of classic rts that really raised the bar when it comes to options allowing for different unit behaviors, production/economy automation, queuing various stuff etc. But Myth is also a good example when it comes to different formations and their use, although its UI is nothing special in general (but boy, was it groundbreaking in lots of other ways). And the arguments for 12 unit limit are a bit too... outlandish for me, sorry. Like I said, that part alone is utterly ridiculous and I always felt like one of the actual reasons for it was that it was the maximum number of those small unit icons with dmg status they could fit in the window, which made it even more stupid.
 

Olinser

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I'd strongly contest the UI claim tbf. 12 units max at a time is enough to ridicule it, but when SC came out I was way too used to different forms of automation, queuing, selection, orders, formations etc that prestigious 1997 releases allowed for. Of course there's an argument that SC didn't need any of that, being the game that it was, but still.
Do you mean Age of Empires and Myth? Or older stuff, like C&C or Dune? Those are the period RTS I've played, and they all control worse than Starcraft, and the UI isn't as good.
And the 12 unit limit has to do with Blizzard's lean towards RPG, both in scale, in characterization, in unit abilities, etc.

Yeah AOE2 the AI, and unit control are much worse than SC, after they've patched it for 20 years its now better but that's because Blizzard intentionally didn't 'improve' Brood War. When it first came out you had to manually replace every single farm and the hotkeys are based on their position in the UI rather than their actual names.

The only place that SC loses out was unit pathing for certain units around certain tight terrain (as Carbot has skewered the Goliath and Dragoon mercilessly).

Also holy shit Myth, haven't thought about that in a while.

CASUALTY
 

Zboj Lamignat

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The farm thing is a p. strange point to make in this particular comparison (plus, option to auto-reseed was added to the game very quickly). While AoE didn't really do anything interesting from the UI/AI perspective, AoE2 is imo very notable for the fact that it introduced formations that units were (almost) perfectly able to keep in motion even in very big groups. This is something that even most modern rt games seem unable to handle.
 

Black_Willow

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Great post. You're probably a big guy already, time to learn that making even more of a dumbass of yourself when you didn't have nothing to say in the first place is not the smart choice. It's fine to stick to butthurt rating mashing.

Do you mean Age of Empires and Myth? Or older stuff, like C&C or Dune? Those are the period RTS I've played, and they all control worse than Starcraft, and the UI isn't as good.
And the 12 unit limit has to do with Blizzard's lean towards RPG, both in scale, in characterization, in unit abilities, etc.
TA and Dark Reign are the best examples of classic rts that really raised the bar when it comes to options allowing for different unit behaviors, production/economy automation, queuing various stuff etc. But Myth is also a good example when it comes to different formations and their use, although its UI is nothing special in general (but boy, was it groundbreaking in lots of other ways). And the arguments for 12 unit limit are a bit too... outlandish for me, sorry. Like I said, that part alone is utterly ridiculous and I always felt like one of the actual reasons for it was that it was the maximum number of those small unit icons with dmg status they could fit in the window, which made it even more stupid.

Bro, don't get butthurt only because someone pointed your sphincter- and poop-fetish. If you want to you can talk to Jaesun, he may also like such stuff.
As for RTS games, Dark Colony is the timeless masterpiece and Starcraft some shovelware everybody forgot, right?
Also, Dark Reign is also a widely cherished masterpiece...
Among Starcraft's competition from that time, only TA and Myth stand out, and mostly because they tried some 3d graphics (while not being "real" 3d games). Yeah, some games had formations and destructible terrain and whatnot, but ultimately, those were mostly gimmicks.
Only Starcraft stood the test of time, the rest fell into obscurity.
 

Zboj Lamignat

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As for RTS games, Dark Colony is the timeless masterpiece and Starcraft some shovelware everybody forgot, right?
That's exxxtreme high iq goalpost moving. But remember, a 640x480 2d rts was way ahead of the competition in production values in 1998.
only TA and Myth stand out, and mostly because they tried some 3d graphics
some games had formations and destructible terrain and whatnot, but ultimately, those were mostly gimmicks.
Only Starcraft stood the test of time, the rest fell into obscurity.
Not sure if more fake news or hot takes, but why not both, eh.
 

Black_Willow

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Production values = 3d in 1024 x 768, great to know bro. Guess Prosper's game is much better than Fallout and PS:T, I mean it's in FULL HD 3D!!!11!

I'll leave you alone with your retardation, goodbye.
 

Zboj Lamignat

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Literally a post ago you have said that it's enough to make a game stand out:lol:

So, will we learn what made SC ahead in production values? Cause this was all really fucking stupid so far.
 

Slaver1

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Myth and its sequel are mind blowing even if revisited today. The fact there are readily available upscale mods for it doesn't hurt.

Then there's a host of more traditional RTS whether it's C&C, TA, Starcraft or AOE2 each of which are heralded as the greatest by their respective fanbases. Myth truly is the shit and C&C/Red Alert is my pick from 2d RTS classics.
 

Slaver1

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Myth truly is the shit
A Myth-like is on ma to make games if I were a dev myself. It's rather dissapointing to think that Bungie's Halo turned out to be some console FPS rather than futuristic tank RTS made in Myth engine as it started at the beginning of the production.
They went onto bigger if not better things for sure. I often think how cool an evolution of Myth would be. Like mixing a D&D style RPG where you control a small party with independent units and armies going about their business as in Myth. For example your party could assist a village and its gathered militia against a goblin incursion. Anyway, slim chances of a game like that happening anymore with the sad direction the hobby has gone in.
 

whydoibother

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They went onto bigger if not better things for sure. I often think how cool an evolution of Myth would be. Like mixing a D&D style RPG where you control a small party with independent units and armies going about their business. For example your party could assist a village and its gathered militia against a goblin incursion. Anyway, slim chances of a game like that happening anymore with the sad direction the hobby has gone in.
Some Warcraft III campaigns kind of play like that. And in general, Warcraft III is your Myth successor game, sort of.
 
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Yeah AOE2 the AI, and unit control are much worse than SC, after they've patched it for 20 years its now better but that's because Blizzard intentionally didn't 'improve' Brood War.

To this day I find AoE2's UI and controls to be unplayable shit by the standards set by SC1 in 1998. You still can't move units in a control group without them running backwards to get in their stupid fucking formation that is completely useless and only looks good on boxarts and in campaigns. And its next to impossible to learn the game because every goddamned unit (there's 100s now) has hidden combat stats vs. every other unit in the game which differ wildly and make the unit counters seem to be complete random nonsense unless you've already played for 1000 hours.
 

J1M

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Imagine thinking a reference to resolution is an pwn when we are talking about 15" CRTs.
 

Zboj Lamignat

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Yeah, every child knows that res made no difference on crts, particularly for strategy games. This is real news and all the games were actually running in vga and gamers were none the wiser until jesus released the first flat screen. Only prestigious devs like blizzard caught on to this, that's why D2 was still a 640x480 game in 2000 lol.
 

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