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Grand Strategy Victoria 3

AwesomeButton

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Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that completely inaccurate for the time period? It would be accurate to a very limited geographical extent for china and for the UK to be able to build factories in the East India Company (but this itself is only because india is stupidly made to be a subject nation). For everything else having big corporations owning factories in other nations is post-WW2 free trade economics. Certainly no GP (or nation with aspirations to be recognized as a GP) would accept another nation owning their strategic assets like railroads or arms manufacturing.

It's gonna be really stupid if all you have to do is win 1 war vs. china and can then take all the profit of a limitless worker population combined with your tech and capital investment.
There is the "country rank" property that they will likely limit foreign ownership by, and also the size of the investment pool.
DD:
The money will be transferred from the investment pool to your country’s treasury once that happens.

Past experience suggests that such a major change will be hilariously buggy at release, but they'll balance it eventually.
 

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I wrote a Vic3 review today on steam:

Victoria 3 is a gross oversimplification.

SUMMARY:
- A hollow experience where you choose a "unique" country and you spend scores of hours "playing", and at the end of the XIX century, all you remember of the Victorian age is... that you built lots of buildings?! Something here isn't right.
- There is one inescapable and straightforward gameplay loop, concealed under layers of derived statistics - "always increase your Construction capacity". The rest will come to you.
- As it tries to represent period-specific historical circumstances, the game neglects the driving forces behind the political and societal development of the leading countries of the period.
- Since to me it's not justifiable to buy an incomplete product on the promise that "it will get good thanks to developer support", and then have its price balloon through addons, I can't recommend Victoria 3 to you!

REVIEW:
Victoria 3 is advertised as a grand strategy game, where the player manages the economics, diplomacy and politics of a state in the XIX century.

In reality, it's a game where you win by having a number go up.

Which metric will you choose to compare your country to others? It might be the "global rank", the "prestige", the "standard of living" of countries. It's up to you, but as most things that are up to you in this game - it's not really important.

And it's not really important, because underneath most of those metrics lies the same Number, and that Number is your country's GDP. The rest are all derived from GDP in one way or another. And GDP is expressed as the sum of your weekly expenses and income. Add that up for 52 consecutive weeks and you have your yearly GDP.

Is the history of the growth of economic output and population wealth sufficient to present the story of the progress of XIX century world powers? Victoria 3 seems to think it is, and you could say it is, but with the caveat that it's a gross oversimplification and distortion of the truth. Which is the statement this review starts with.

The game has a few gameplay loops, but they all reinforce the main one. That main loop is the construction of enterprises which the game, somewhat confusingly, calls "buildings". Buildings which turn profit will pay out this profit to the employees and owners of the building.

The profits of buildings are what drives most of the other "success" metrics. Dividends and wages drive the population's wealth, which wealth is the main contributor to its standard of living, and which also determines the population's loyalty or radicalism vis-a-vis the government, and its preferences with regard to which political faction should be in charge. The political factions, when in charge, determine what legislation can be passed, and legislation on various issues will put in force modifiers to the existing economics, diplomatic, and governmental setup.

You are provided with buttons to push and levers to pull and cogs to rotate, in order to balance the strain on the various parts of the system, so at the time you need to extract more money you can do it, and at a later time when you need to placate the public, you can relieve some of that strain.

But what's behind all of this is a simple dependency - the higher your country's capacity to have construction of buildings going on, the faster your population's wealth will increase, provided those constructions are, on the whole, profitable. A universally valid strategy is to work towards increasing your "Construction", which is what in "Hearts of Iron" (1 and 2) used to be called "Industrial Capacity". This "Construction" resource is then used by both AI-controlled agents and by you, the player, to increase your industrial sector, i.e. the buildings which make your country and people richer.

The very existence of "universally valid" strategies is an alarm bell for a badly balanced grand strategy game. In a grand strategy game, it is the geopolitical situation which in its sum dictates what the good strategy is for a given player. And geopolitical factors are very sparsely modeled in Victoria 3.

The Diplomacy, Politics, and Warfare gameplay loops merely reinforce the main loop - the economic one, thus I won't be going into detail on them. Suffice it to say that you can't be successful in either of those if your country doesn't produce goods and create population wealth on par with the countries you want to compete against.

All of this is well and fine, and as an economics model it's a plausible and complex one for a videogame. What I can't abide by, and what ultimately makes me overall ill-disposed towards Victoria 3, is that telling the story of the economic boom of the XIX century is telling less than half the story of the success of the West in the given timeframe. Furthermore, it is putting the cart in front of the horse, because much of the advancements in industry were born out of, and gave birth to, social perceptions which drove political action.

Just two small examples - slavery and child labor were not abolished because of economic efficiency concerns, but because they became morally unacceptable. A major factor for France going on to conquer Tunisia was that it was roundly beaten by Prussia a few years prior, and it needed a boost in "national pride" - admitted by politicians at that time. But you wouldn't get a feel of those things from playing Victoria 3 in its current state. Victoria 3 won't guide you through the story of how and why child labor became unacceptable why the German states decided to unite.

It is these processes which Victoria 3 seems to be more or less uninterested in modelling or providing for. The only motivating force for your actions as a player ends up being having more profitable buildings working under your market. I understand that the development team recognizes the lack of flavor and individuality as one of the big areas for improvement, but this recognition can't make a review of the present state of the game any more positive.

I am certain that a few years down the road Victoria 3 will be a much more complete experience, with a proper feeling for the player of the country he is playing with.

However, past experience shows that by that time the game will have overgrown with DLCs so much that even at a discount, it will cost way above what a full priced base game does now.

Since to me it's not justifiable to buy an incomplete product on the promise that "it will get good eventually", and then have its price balloon through addons, I can't recommend Victoria 3 to you!

That is, unless you are willing to settle for a generic simulation of country X's industrialization and its effects on demographics, which is decidedly far from the full tale of what the Victorian age or the "long XIX century" was about. Then you keep playing the "incomplete" version you have now, and after some hundreds of hours you think to yourself "why not give them a few dollars more for an expansion, it has paid for itself already".

I'm writing this review after 110 hours and 3 full campaigns, as Sweden, Prussia and France. Although I'm well aware of the roadmap for development and the features of the upcoming "Sphere of Influence" DLC, I still don't think Victoria 3 is worth buying in its current state, and from my perspective, won't be worth buying in 2024.

Edit 4/14: My review is currently the most helpful review for the past 30 days, with 65 upvotes in 6 days.
 
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Space Satan

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Hello Victorians, this is Martin here with an update on the release date of the Sphere of Influence expansion.

A few weeks ago we announced we were planning to release the expansion and its accompanying update on May 6th. Since that time we’ve unfortunately come to the conclusion that both the update and the expansion are in need of more time for bug fixing and polish. Both update 1.7 and Sphere of Influence contain several fundamental changes to how the game functions, particularly in the form of the Building Ownership Revision and Power Blocs, which has resulted in bugs, as well as balance and technical stability issues.

While we are happy with the features on offer in 1.7/Sphere of Influence, we simply do not believe that sticking to the original release date will allow us to deliver those features in a polished and balanced state, and we frankly do not want your enjoyment of them to be marred by excessive bugginess, crashes or general lack of polish. We believe that a delay will allow us to release the update and expansion in a state that both we as the developers and you as the players will be much more happy with.

The new release date will be Monday the 24th of June. We will continue releasing weekly dev diaries up to that point, as there is still quite a lot to cover with both the DLC and the update. We know many of you are eagerly anticipating the expansion and apologize for the extended waiting that this will create, but we really want Sphere of Influence to meet your expectations and for this release to be one that we can be proud of as a development team!
 

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Ninja'd. I can't say this is any surprise.

BTW 92 upvotes on my review and counting.
 
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AwesomeButton

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It's a similar case to Cyberpunk 77 for me. I find the main game mode to be a squandered opportunity for something good. Like a historical game of "retracing the steps of..." where the devs didn't add the actually historical part and only got as far as the economic simulation and threw the game out as early access. Only thing is that Paradox calls a release what most devs call early access, and gets a pass. Much like the way CDPR with Cyberpunk didn't implement the RPG, nor much of the interactive movie either.

But just like Cyberpunk, while the project planning has failed, the technical people have left, and actually continue to support, a functioning framework where I can mod in my own stuff, so that's what I've started doing. Adding journal entries that nudge the player on a historical path, and when he completes a journal entry he gets rewarded with an informational event window and a next journal entry. The game is very much a blank slate with regards to flavor content.
 

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Played this again since my first playthrough that i did after release, and the game is still piece of shit and fundamentally broken in many aspects. Very lazily made game tbh, if you want to scratch that victorian itch, go and buy anno 1800, since what you do mostly in victoria is building construction to build more factories, until very late game when everything crash and you have to downsize your production because ai can't keep up extracting resources and industrializing their economies. You can get into top three powers as two province belgium with some colonies. Construction sector is terrible mechanic, the lack of real supply/demand system is another, the amount of goods is lackluster for such game, the amount of manual control you have to do with laissez faire, the atrocious UI. It's a complete dumpster and might be a good game only for self hating leftist type who want to mod in a wakanda and conquer the west...
 

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What makes this period uniquely difficult to translate into a GSG game specifically is the widely varying systems of government that need to be simulated through mechanics, if you insist on having all countries playable, like pdx do.

But even if you give such wildly different countries like the USA, the Ottoman Empire, Great Britain, and Russia their unique mechanics - which Victoria 3 doesn't do - you are still faced with the problem of presenting the player with the country's zeitgeist in the 1800s, aka "flavor". The 1830-1850 period was a time where France's society was still coping with the aftermath of the Revolution and the legacy of Bonapartism. It saw the industrialization, the conquest of Algeria, the outlawing of slavery, and the first legislation limiting child labor. These issues are all strictly country-specific and factored into its policies and politics. To do the period justice, the game has to somehow make the player aware of this agenda, and preferrably not in a dry manner of some modifiers and percentages. The atmosphere of the times has to come through not just the graphics but the gameplay. And that's where Victoria 3 fails completely - every country feels more or less the same.
 
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Stavrophore

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Games about that period needs to have economy worked out in the tiniest detail. Economy in 1910 was more globalized than in 1950, we only returned to the global gdp of trade share of that era in 1980. If the game economy and politics, which was a big part of why that period was so stable considering how powerful the empires were, the big powers often sit out and worked the conflicts. Its only now that we will get SoI, something was already in Vic2. But the economy loop in vic3 is terribly broken, arguably more than in vic2. One would think that manufacturing chains were expanded in vic3, but instead of introducing multiple new goods, they just gated production increases behind tech, which only makes you to produce more of the same. There were multiple breakthroughs in victorian era where different products were used to vastly incease efficiency of a process that produced same goods, the leblanc/solvay or caro/bosch are best examples. Even anno 1800 has more goods and manufactured goods. The basis of victorian era wealth increase of average citizen was due to manufacturing improvements, but not like its seen in victoria 3 where you downscale output to keep arbitrary prices. Prices in real life were free floating according to supply and demand, and not fixed set point like you would believe from marx/ricardo labor theory of value. Even if a paycheck of a laborer didn't grow[a stationary/deflationary scenario], his purchasing power did grow, because the goods were cheaper, and since a solitary person has similar needs, if he buys cheaper goods and more money is left in his pocket he will either seek new goods or better quality ones, like going from oats->meat->processed food. The game should provide manufacturing chains into the late game, but if you are competent player, you will have radios/cars in 1905, and then no more demand for new goods, hence your economy will stall, especially since the rest of the ai can't industrialize as well.
 

Fedora Master

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I wonder how any of these features are... actually relevant to the game? Especially as a minor power?
The gameplay for 90% of nations will still be endlessly microing buildings.

e: Also does foreign investment mean the AI can just steal your production or what?
 
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From the absurd efforts to make the 19th c. colonisation grand strategy feel as inoffensive as possible, they turned Victoria 3 into the blandest game in existence.

I've been slowly working on modding in some "feels" of historical accuracy where Victoria 3 falls particularly flat, and I really like how it's turning up. I'd much rather play a game which is honest with me about what and why happened. When you amputate the historical narrative or at least abstract it away into being an uninspiring game mechanic you are not just "not truthful to history", you are actively teaching fake history.
 

Fedora Master

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From the absurd efforts to make the 19th c. colonisation grand strategy feel as inoffensive as possible, they turned Victoria 3 into the blandest game in existence.

I've been slowly working on modding in some "feels" of historical accuracy where Victoria 3 falls particularly flat, and I really like how it's turning up. I'd much rather play a game which is honest with me about what and why happened. When you amputate the historical narrative or at least abstract it away into being an uninspiring game mechanic you are not just "not truthful to history", you are actively teaching fake history.
This is the same era where blacks were put into camps by the British and whatnot. The worst event you can get is "Angry slave owner" and "Language in the classroom" though.
 

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The "Language in the classroom" occurring in Senegal while playing as France had me slapping the table with laughter. It's on of the events I want to rework.

Here is what I mean. The vanilla event for algerians raiding a province during the "Algerian Conquest" Journal Entry:
FRgLVpG.jpg

Now here is the event I've replaced it with:
WU4VE5J.jpg

And I've also added an event to give the impression that the low intensity war was being fought by both sides:
leEJXIe.jpg
 

AwesomeButton

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This is the same era where blacks were put into camps by the British and whatnot.
Look up "enfumades". Occasionally Algerian non-combatants who were hiding in caves have been suffocated to death by French soldiers starting a fire at the cave entrance. One whole tribe was killed in such a manner including all non-combatants, i.e. women and children.

Just before somene calls out "white men/colonialism evil", news of these atrocities did cause an uproar in the French parliament, accusations of barbarism from liberal politicians (republican-leaning "leftists" in the contemporary French political spectrum) and the marshal heading the French administration was eventually called back*. And that's a story I'm telling through an event chain. When I reach later stages of the period, we'll get to the question of western medicine which extended life expectancy among natives and saved them from mortal diseases. Those are matters that vanilla Vic 3 is very very scared of even hinting of, or at least that's the impression I was left with.

* - although there is always the lingering suspicion that the atrocities were a convenient pretext for the opposition to use for an attack on the government as a whole, over the corruption of the Algerian military administration. Generals were getting paid by insurgent tribesmen, algerian natives were serving alongside French troops, where one tribe was pro-French another was insurgent, so the situation was a lot more gray.
 
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Fedora Master

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The "Language in the classroom" occurring in Senegal while playing as France had me slapping the table with laughter. It's on of the events I want to rework.
It's typical PDX event design that only tests for discriminated pops, regardless of size or historical situation. No Jew in Germany at the time ever complained about not being allowed to speak Yiddish in school, goddammit.
 

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PDX are a small studio with a small budget so they could only afford low effort shilling and botting. That's why you also don't see any Infinitron news in here.
 

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