Interview Vault Dweller interviewed about Kickstarter, calls Shadowrun Returns an "awful fucking iPhone game"

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

Actual dev team with millions of dollars in funding vs scraped together team of passionate amateurs with no real funding aside from pre-orders and money out of the lead's pocket. Gee, I wonder which can finish a game faster?

And while we're at it, how come the island nation of Nauru hasn't done anything about the war on terror compared to the US? Lazy sons of bitches!

 

[dibens]

Obsidian promised a large city, a stronghold, and a 15-level dungeon to get to 4 mil.

Again, these are veterans we're talking about. Their own fault for setting the bar too low at the start and then promising outlandish shit for stretch goals. I have the feeling they would have gotten 4 millions solely on their reputation and the names of the franchises they're reviving, not because of the extra 15-level dungeons. They could have easily cut the strech goals in half and just put the original goal at 2 mil or something.

That's provided they fail. Who knows, maybe everything is going as planned and within the limits of the budget, and just need time to polish the games the way publishers never allow them to.

 

[imweasel]

SRR is probably one of the best fucking low budget ($1.5 Million) RPGs that I ever played.

I enjoyed it and am looking foward to the add-on and sequel.

 

[almondblight]

First, I daresay that SNES Shadowrun was a lot more complex. I even wanted to do a LP to show the difference, but didn't have time. Second, it was billed as an RPG, not RPG-lite or an iphone game. As an RPG, it leaves much to be desired.

Try the Shadowrun Unlimited mod when you get the chance, it's non-linear and added a number of interesting mechanics from what I saw. My only real regret with SRR is that I burned myself out on the lackluster OC.

 

[Davaris]

Obsidian promised a large city, a stronghold, and a 15-level dungeon to get to 4 mil.

Again, these are veterans we're talking about. Their own fault for setting the bar too low at the start and then promising outlandish shit for stretch goals. I have the feeling they would have gotten 4 millions solely on their reputation and the names of the franchises they're reviving, not because of the extra 15-level dungeons. They could have easily cut the strech goals in half and just put the original goal at 2 mil or something.

I doubt anyone could take in so much money, without Kickstarter's "patented" psychological manipulation. Stretch goals are about creating artificial crises, to ensure every last dollar is extracted from donors. Without manipulation, Kickstarter just wouldn't work. And the system uses greed against the developers as well. You will never see a developer say, We can stop making promises we have enough money.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I doubt anyone could take in so much money, without Kickstarter's "patented" psychological manipulation. Stretch goals are about creating artificial crises, to ensure every last dollar is extracted from donors. Without manipulation, Kickstarter just wouldn't work. And the system uses greed against the developers as well. You will never see a developer say, We can stop making promises we have enough money.

This.

 

[Grunker]

You people talk about Kickstarter Marketing like it's something new. It's just capitalism. If you don't use Kickstarter because of that, by all rights you should never buy anything.

 

[cherry blossom]

So can Dave. Neither are particularly good writers.

I don't think VD even has the capacity to write such juvenile crap as Dave writes. Not to mention "and run he did".

 

[CSM]

Salty.

 

[BlackAdderBG]

VD had a point about money,3-4 mil are nothing for any wanabe decent RPG. I can bet that Obsidian and Fargo are pouring double or triple the KS sum from their own money. When Path of Exile had its closed beta packs sale the lead Chris Wilson said that the 2 mil they got was drop in the buck for the amount they got invested already to that point.The game was 4 or 5 years in development with 18 man studio.

 

[Infinitron]

I can bet that Obsidian and Fargo are pouring double or triple the KS sum from their own money.

No

And that wasn't VD's point, anyway. He said one million isn't enough, 3-4 million is enough.

 

[BlackAdderBG]

Well if they don't then I don't expect anything that will have content even close to old IE games.

 

[Rake]

I can bet that Obsidian and Fargo are pouring double or triple the KS sum from their own money.

No

And that wasn't VD's point, anyway. He said one million isn't enough, 3-4 million is enough.

Truth be told, i wouldn't dismiss the idea Feargus and Fargo supplementing with money on top of that. Not double or triple the amount, but 500.000 should be doable. We already know that inXile has put more money from their mobile game sales, and it wouldn't be difficult for Obsidian to provide that kind of money even if in practise their AAA games budgets fund the PE team for one-two additional months.

 

[Duraframe300]

I can bet that Obsidian and Fargo are pouring double or triple the KS sum from their own money.

No

And that wasn't VD's point, anyway. He said one million isn't enough, 3-4 million is enough.

Truth be told, i wouldn't dismiss the idea Feargus and Fargo supplementing with money on top of that. Not double or triple the amount, but 500.000 should be doable. We already know that inXile has put more money from their mobile game sales, and it wouldn't be difficult for Obsidian to provide that kind of money even if in practise their AAA games budgets fund the PE team for one-two additional months.

Fargo probably could. On Obisidian's side less so. I really doubt they would be Gearboxin' their good will up.

 

[Infinitron]

I can bet that Obsidian and Fargo are pouring double or triple the KS sum from their own money.

No

And that wasn't VD's point, anyway. He said one million isn't enough, 3-4 million is enough.

Truth be told, i wouldn't dismiss the idea Feargus and Fargo supplementing with money on top of that. Not double or triple the amount, but 500.000 should be doable. We already know that inXile has put more money from their mobile game sales, and it wouldn't be difficult for Obsidian to provide that kind of money even if in practise their AAA games budgets fund the PE team for one-two additional months.

inXile has probably already added something on the order of 1 million of their own money to Wasteland 2's budget. But yeah, that's a far cry from "double or triple".

 

[BlackAdderBG]

What about the delay?From where they will get financed?One million by now and the game is not even close to release...

 

[Infinitron]

What about the delay?From where they will get financed?One million by now and the game is not even close to release...

I don't think their running costs are as high as you think they are. Remember, these types of games had similar budgets when they were made in the 90s, and that was with prerendered 3D cutscenes, celebrity voice acting, physical distribution costs, crappier engines and development environments, and other nonsense.

 

[Crichton]

I try to give indie developers a break but VD's petulant jealousy of S:R's sales figures just sounds pathetic. The people's wallets have spoken, VD. Full party control = sales. Stop dicking around with the choose-your-own-adventure teleportation simulator and add some real gameplay to your game!

 

[BlackAdderBG]

What about the delay?From where they will get financed?One million by now and the game is not even close to release...

I don't think their running costs are as high as you think they are. Remember, these types of games had similar budgets when they were made in the 90s, and that was with prerendered 3D cutscenes, celebrity voice acting, physical distribution costs, crappier engines and development environments, and other nonsense.

For one inflation is 50% from the 90' to nowadays ,so 4 mil back then are 6-7 today.Second the art costs are way bigger part of the budget now.But you may be right I'm talking out of pure speculation on my part ,but having dived in some business planning in the end cost are four to five times than expected.

 

[Volourn]

SR sucks not because of lack of funding but because the developers fukkin' sucked at making it. When a game made on the snes decades ago is superior rpg using the same IP you are doing it fukkin' wrong.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I can bet that Obsidian and Fargo are pouring double or triple the KS sum from their own money.

No

And that wasn't VD's point, anyway. He said one million isn't enough, 3-4 million is enough.

I didn't. I said that 3-4 is the bare minimum because I want to believe that it's the bare minimum. I quoted that interview with Feargus where he talks budgets:

"We were talking to Atari, and we started talking, and oh my god this was like the Cherokee Trail of Tears pitch," he said. "They asked in 2007 if we wanted to do Baldur's Gate 3, and I'm like 'Yes, if you guys are serious about it.' They were like, 'What do you mean?' I said, 'If you'll put a real budget behind it: it can't be $10 million, it needs to be $20 million, $25 million. If you really want to do this, then you need to put a real budget behind it. You need to give a budget that BioWare would have to do a Mass Effect or whatever. It has to be a real budget.'"

Can't help but wonder what would have happened had Feargus asked for 4 mil. Can't help but wonder why 10 mil isn't enough to make BG3 but 4 mil is more than enough to make PE.

Edit: because there is no transparency, we have no clue what the actual budget is, what's enough and what isn't. Developers ask for what they can get not what they need. So, whether or not 2, 3 or 4 mil is enough, we have no idea. For all we know:

Dave: But movies cost millions of dollars to make.
Robert K. Bowfinger: That's after gross net deduction profit percentage deferment ten percent of the nut. Cash, every movie cost $2,184.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I try to give indie developers a break but VD's petulant jealousy of S:R's sales figures just sounds pathetic. The people's wallets have spoken, VD. Full party control = sales. Stop dicking around with the choose-your-own-adventure teleportation simulator and add some real gameplay to your game!

I don't give the slightest fuck about their sales numbers. We're making a different game and what Shadowrun did sales-wise or didn't is irrelevant to me, in the same way Diablo 3 sales figures are irrelevant. As a gamer, I was disappointed and that's all I was talking about. It was the first turn-based RPG and to me it was barely playable due to the extreme linearity and overly simplistic design.

 

[Vault Dweller]

SR sucks not because of lack of funding but because the developers fukkin' sucked at making it. When a game made on the snes decades ago is superior rpg using the same IP you are doing it fukkin' wrong.

Exactly.

 

[Mastermind]

Can't help but wonder what would have happened had Feargus asked for 4 mil. Can't help but wonder why 10 mil isn't enough to make BG3 but 4 mil is more than enough to make PE.

You'd have to be mentally retarded to need more than ten fucking million dollars to make a BG2 sequel. Feargus grossly mismanaging money is a far bigger concern than whether games like WL2 and PE can theoretically be done on a million dollars (they can).

 

[Infinitron]

Can't help but wonder what would have happened had Feargus asked for 4 mil. Can't help but wonder why 10 mil isn't enough to make BG3 but 4 mil is more than enough to make PE.

Cuz they wanted to make an AAA BG3 cuz back then they thought a retro RPG wouldn't sell. We've been over this.

Atari would most likely cancel the game and take their money back if they gave Obsidian 4 million dollars to make BG3 and got a design document for a game like PE in return.