World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 - VTMB sequel from The Chinese Room - coming early 2025

[NecroLord]

"you're a Caine/Jack plot"

Who used this plot?

Bloodlines.

LOL.
Nope, it's been a meme for a long while, and while the Cab Driver IS a Kindred (he has the aura of one if you use Auspex), I still don't think it's Caine.
It could just as well be a Elder Kindred.

 

[Roguey]

The protagonist is Caine in Bloodlines?

No, he's the guy who lowers your generation which Andrei notices and why LaCroix is unable to dominate you at the end despite being able to do so quite easily before.

"you're a Caine/Jack plot"

Who used this plot?

Bloodlines.

LOL.
Nope, it's been a meme for a long while, and while the Cab Driver IS a Kindred (he has the aura of one if you use Auspex), I still don't think it's Caine.
It could just as well be a Elder Kindred.

The file name says it's Caine. In one of his videos, Cain confirmed it was Cain (they originally couldn't use him but then were told the world was ending and nothing mattered anymore so they were given the go-ahead). Developer intent - it's Caine.

 

[Fargus]

Not as cool if it's literally hoo instead of Caine.

I also read it was some full retard malk that thinks he is Caine. But this theory sounds even dumber.

 

[Roguey]

Not as cool if it's literally hoo instead of Caine.

I also read it was some full retard malk that thinks he is Caine. But this theory sounds even dumber.

I think Caine meddling in this way is stupid myself, and some old crazy vampire works better for me, but midwits gonna mid.

 

[Skinwalker]

WoD made its high-level entities (antediluveans, malfeans, etc) so super-sekrit, inscrutable and all-powerful, it becomes almost irrelevant whether or not it's specifically Cain or someone else.

 

[NecroLord]

Not as cool if it's literally hoo instead of Caine.

I also read it was some full retard malk that thinks he is Caine. But this theory sounds even dumber.

I think Caine meddling in this way is stupid myself, and some old crazy vampire works better for me, but midwits gonna mid.

"Meddling".
Not quite.
Just Caine being sick of the Kindred world and the Jyhad, hence being a humble cab driver...

 

[normie]

Not as cool if it's literally hoo instead of Caine.

I also read it was some full retard malk that thinks he is Caine. But this theory sounds even dumber.

I think Caine meddling in this way is stupid myself, and some old crazy vampire works better for me, but midwits gonna mid.

you are a midwit
and your elite theory shit is peak midwit, keep repeating it

 

[Roguey]

"Meddling".
Not quite.
Just Caine being sick of the Kindred world and the Jyhad, hence being a humble cab driver...

Who's also involved in a tangled plot involving a sarcophagus, a bomb, and dominating a vampire into siring a childe without approval all to kill some Prince who could be dispatched in a much quicker fashion. Bloodlines's character interactions are fun, but the plot is stupid.

 

[normie]

"Meddling".
Not quite.
Just Caine being sick of the Kindred world and the Jyhad, hence being a humble cab driver...

Who's also involved in a tangled plot involving a sarcophagus, a bomb, and dominating a vampire into siring a childe without approval all to kill some Prince who could be dispatched in a much quicker fashion. Bloodlines's character interactions are fun, but the plot is stupid.

see, you still don't get what the plot is
that's why you're a dumb person
but it's a small miracle you've finally relented that the taxi driver is Caine by author's intent, you used to be dumber than even that

 

[Skinwalker]

Who's also involved in a tangled plot involving a sarcophagus, a bomb, and dominating a vampire into siring a childe without approval all to kill some Prince who could be dispatched in a much quicker fashion.

Jack's plot could work without the protagonist doing all the dirty work for LaCroix.

 

[Roguey]

you are a midwit
and your elite theory shit is peak midwit, keep repeating it

Describe the cab driver's motivation and why he does the things the way he does them in Bloodlines. Troika itself doesn't even know.

 

[Fargus]

Even thousands of years old father of all vampires have to entertain himself.

 

[Roguey]

but it's a small miracle you've finally relented that the taxi driver is Caine by author's intent, you used to be dumber than even that

I do not recall ever making the argument that Troika never intended for it to be Caine, just that officially White Wolf didn't consider it Caine because they had other plans/ideas for him that contradicted Troika's take.

Jack's plot could work without the protagonist doing all the dirty work for LaCroix.

That is one of the reasons why it's nonsensical.

 

[Skinwalker]

Jack's plot could work without the protagonist doing all the dirty work for LaCroix.

That is one of the reasons why it's nonsensical.

What is nonsensical? After thousands of years of slumber/voluntary exile, Cain finally returns in some fashion, sees the world of his children in shambles, and secretly sires a new vampire to see what they will do. It's not a conspiracy, more of poking the anthill with a stick.

 

[Roguey]

What is nonsensical? After thousands of years of slumber/voluntary exile, Cain finally returns in some fashion, sees the world of his children in shambles, and secretly sires a new vampire to see what they will do. It's not a conspiracy, more of poking the anthill with a stick.

Caine disengaged with the world because one generation of his children diablerized the previous. Their still being awful would be no big shock.

Okay LaCroix the would be diablerizer is dead now - who fucking cares? What did this show about the nature of vampires that wasn't already known, what did this accomplish?

I've posted the White Wolf takes before https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...ines-2-from-hardsuit-labs.126124/post-6666020 https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...ines-2-from-hardsuit-labs.126124/post-8388716

Their ideas make more sense than the johnny-come-latelies at Troika who by their own admission weren't really fans going in.

 

[Skinwalker]

Okay LaCroix the would be diablerizer is dead now - who fucking cares?

Also, the Sabbat's leader is destroyed, the Kuei Jin, the Anarchs are potentially rallied against the Camarilla, and there's a new tough guy in town - us!

 

[Vulpes]

The plot of the game only makes sense if Caine is the one who set it all up, especially if it's all a prelude to the Time of Judgement as Tim suggests in his video about the cancelled expansion. The whole struggle over the Ankaran Sarcophagus exists to test how modern vampires (be they Sabbat, Anarch, Camarilla, Elder or fledgeling) would react if their ancient forefathers returned. The reason why Caine abandoned vampiric society and cursed the Antediluvians was because they slaughtered the second generation for their power. Now in VtM Bloodlines he wants to see if things have changed for the better since then or if Kindred are doomed to make the same mistakes over and over again.

 

[Roguey]

Also, the Sabbat's leader is destroyed, the Kuei Jin, the Anarchs are potentially rallied against the Camarilla, and there's a new tough guy in town - us!

To a previously-disengaged ancient vampire like Caine, this isn't pretty significant. Factions fall, factions rise to take their place. Business as usual. No real reason to favor one group of horrible beings over another.

 

[Roguey]

The whole struggle over the Ankaran Sarcophagus exists to test how modern vampires (be they Sabbat, Anarch, Camarilla, Elder or fledgeling) would react if their ancient forefathers returned.

None of this requires making an Extra Special vampire to serve as an errand runner.

 

[normie]

you are a midwit
and your elite theory shit is peak midwit, keep repeating it

Describe the cab driver's motivation and why he does the things the way he does them in Bloodlines. Troika itself doesn't even know.

again? it's all explained with the parallels to the Noddist lore and the First City the game gives you, the game's central thrust is in the game, it's not a mystery
and it's not like the game is subtle, all you do in the game is get a cross cut of the city's vampires with and just about every important faction vampire saying "doooood, really think about it when judging faction, really really think about it doooooood"

just that officially White Wolf didn't consider it Caine because they had other plans/ideas for him that contradicted Troika's take.

you were adamant that in discussing VTMB, it shouldn't be considered Caine because somehow the word of White Wolf overrides authorial intents of Troika, and every other shit-ass argument you contrive because you don't like it being Caine and you don't get it

I don't even care that you don't get a creative work and essentially are failing the literacy equivalent of a breakfast test - but you, of all people, don't get to scoff and call others midwits, you are the definition of a midwit

 

[Roguey]

again? it's all explained with the parallels to the Noddist lore and the First City the game gives you, the game's central thrust is in the game, it's not a mystery

You're dodging, this is not a suitable explanation.

you were adamant that in discussing VTMB, it shouldn't be considered Caine because somehow the word of White Wolf overrides authorial intents of Troika, and every other shit-ass argument you contrive because you don't like it being Caine and you don't get it

White Wolf (though now it's just Paradox) owns Vampire, not Troika, who were work-for-hire contractors who made a game that's now semi-canon.

 

[Skinwalker]

Also, the Sabbat's leader is destroyed, the Kuei Jin, the Anarchs are potentially rallied against the Camarilla, and there's a new tough guy in town - us!

To a previously-disengaged ancient vampire like Caine, this isn't pretty significant. Factions fall, factions rise to take their place. Business as usual. No real reason to favor one group of horrible beings over another.

It's still his children, and he's trying to see how a direct new child of his would challenge the status quo. Also, he clearly favors the Anarch cause in his dialogue.

 

[Roguey]

It's still his children, and he's trying to see how a direct new child of his would challenge the status quo.

And what new things did he learn from this? If you take the fledgeling out of the picture, very little would have changed, just some minor details.

Also, he clearly favors the Anarch cause in his dialogue.

It's well within his power to single-handedly wipe out the Camarilla, but he doesn't do this because...?

 

[normie]

semi-canon

THE CANON has bearing only as far as intentions of the authors of creative work mean it to have, which can be "none", and only up until the moment the work is finished, so the "word of god" is piss in the wind as far as judging the intentions of a creative work go
THE CANON is not the creative works, but the hamfisted, imposed attempt to whip many creative works to a unifying coherency (easy with works from the same author, difficult with a property that whores itself out) - THE CANON is not the creative spark spawning those creative works, it's the individuals responsible for the particular creative work - they miss things, they get creative with interpretation, they add things, they recontextualise, they transform it, and in the same way THE CANON tries to impose coherency, they impose THE CANON to tell the stories they want to tell; the work is the work and not the well it drew from

White Wolf has the say on the CANON, but THE CANON has no say on the intentions of the game because THE CANON didn't make it - whatever White Wolf said during the creation process does not matter if it was not heeded, and whatever White Wolf says after has no bearing because creative process is already over with

whatever is in the game is what the story of the game is, and whatever of the THE CANON accords with the individual work is the only CANON that's relevant to the game, end of
you don't get the game's story and literary intentions because there's bug in your brain that does not allow you to and you're post hoc using materials irrelevant to judging the intentions of the game (CANON)

It's well within his power to single-handedly wipe out the Camarilla, but he doesn't do this because...?

because that's the game, as told by Troika

 

[Roguey]

THE CANON has bearing only as far as intentions of the authors of creative work mean it to have, which can be "none", and only up until the moment the work is finished, so the "word of god" is piss in the wind as far as judging the intentions of a creative work go
THE CANON is not the creative works, but the hamfisted, imposed attempt to whip many creative works to a unifying coherency (easy with works from the same author, difficult with a property that whores itself out) - THE CANON is not the creative spark spawning those creative works, it's the individuals responsible for the particular creative work - they miss things, they get creative with interpretation, they add things, they recontextualise, they transform it, and in the same way THE CANON tries to impose coherency, they impose THE CANON to tell the stories they want to tell; the work is the work and not the well it drew from

White Wolf has the say on the CANON, but THE CANON has no say on the intentions of the game because THE CANON didn't make it - whatever White Wolf said during the creation process does not matter if it was not heeded, and whatever White Wolf says after has no bearing because creative process is already over with

whatever is in the game is what the story of the game is, and whatever of the THE CANON accords with the individual work is the only CANON that's relevant to the game, end of
you don't get the game's story and literary intentions because there's bug in your brain that does not allow you to and you're post hoc using materials irrelevant to judging the intentions of the game (CANON)

They made a game using a setting and characters they didn't create and that did not belong to them. The IP Owner decides what counts.

because that's the game, as told by Troika

And brains like these went on to create Dead State and The Outer Worlds.