World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs

[Twiglard]

Stalker is an immersive sim. None of them are procedurally generated and they all have a lot of attention devoted to a narrative.

Actually Stalker: SoC has only a barebones plot smaller than 2-3 side quest chains in some Fallout 2 or Arcanum. I beat it 3 times or so. Later CoP got a more "cinematic" plot but the game lost much by it in my opinion. I'd even go on a limb here to say Clear Sky was better, despite all the faults.

The SoC side quests are so bad they could be procedurally generated with no significant effort or original research. Have you played the game?

if Arcanum were first person [...]

Apparently your point is that a VtM game would gain by being an "immersive sim", in lieu of more traditional RPG elements? I don't see you backing it up with any analysis, but I could be wrong–this thread is 20 pages after all. In the end, it's a claim for you to try to prove rather than for others to try to disprove from the get-go.

 

[HansDampf]

Bloodlines has convenient vents everywhere.

Yes, it has some, but you never get the feeling the whole building was designed around the vents that you get in Deus Ex !

You mean like the parking garage where Larry sends you to steal briefcase number 1? Or the Skyline Apartment building that is just one single vent-network with apartments attached? Let's hope the elevator won't break down or else everybody would be forced to crawl through the vent to their apartments. These are just the most egregious examples. Megahurtz has convenient vent passage to the power room, there is a vent entrance into the Empire Hotel, you can go through vents to sneak around the Mafia guys, etc. Bloodlines and Deu sEx are both equally guilty of this, but it never hurt my immershun much.

 

[Space Nugget]

Wesp5

Serious question: why do you have so much contempt towards Immersive Sim games?

Spoiler

Show me on the doll where it hurt you

 

[Twiglard]

Skyline Apartment building [...] it never hurt my immershun much.

It hurt mine that Bloodlines' apartments were always empty and breaking in was consequence free. The ones in Santa Monica and LA. Oh wait, there was some dying woman that couldn't defend herself in any way. It's like everyone ran into a bomb shelter or something.

 

[Wesp5]

You mean like the parking garage where Larry sends you to steal briefcase number 1? Or the Skyline Apartment building that is just one single vent-network with apartments attached?

Yes, there were some convenient vents there, but these maps still looked realistic and would work without vents just fine. Also there are over 100 maps in Bloodlines and I would guess about 10% have vents. Maybe I am misremembering things, but I have the feeling 100% of all Deus Ex game maps had vents !

As for the Skyeline Appartments being empty, this is true. If you break into one of them though, the guard will come up and try to stop you, but this is actually something that I restored which was not working in the original game ! I find it more annoying that none of the flats have windows which is really weird.

As for my allegedly dislike of Immersive Sims, it depends on the games. I love the Thief and Dishonored games! I actually created an Unofficial Patch for The Dark Mod too, which to me is the closest we got to the original Thief. The Deus Ex games are a mixed bag, a lot of good ideas, but often too obviously designed around the gameplay! Which is even worse in SS2 and Prey, where as I already wrote, I have the feeling the whole world was constructed just to justify and explain gameplay elements.

 

[Space Nugget]

As for my allegedly dislike of Immersive Sims, it depends on the games.

Fair enough. I'm not into System Shock 2, for instance.

I love the Thief and Dishonored games!

Liking the Dishonored games more than Deus Ex, System Shock 2 (or even Prey) is very likely to trigger a lot of codexers.

I actually created an Unofficial Patch for The Dark Mod too, which to me is the closest we got to the original Thief.

Thanks for your public service. And I mean it.

The Deus Ex games are a mixed bag, a lot of good ideas, but often too obviously designed around the gameplay!

I don't mind it, to be honest, but the new ones are certainly the worst offenders... (I quit Mankind Divided. Probably never going back.)

Which is even worse in SS2 and Prey, where as I already wrote, I have the feeling the whole world was constructed just to justify certain game elements...

Ain't that the nature of videogames? Immersive Sims are not simulators.

 

[Nano]

Wesp5

Serious question: why do you have so much contempt towards Immersive Sim games?

Spoiler

Show me on the doll where it hurt you

Let's get Ash in here. Modder fight!

 

[Ash]

Space Nugget has it covered. Wesp has no monocle. Not worth it. VTMB is a perfect match for him as an amazing, immersive, atmospheric experience close to completely ruined by mediocre gameplay.

Still appreciate his vtmb contributions nonetheless.

 

[Wesp5]

Still appreciate his vtmb contributions nonetheless.

Thanks! I still haven't found the time to play your GMDX mod, but from the videos I have seen I suspect it helps a lot in making the DX world feel more real and not as artificial...

 

[Delterius]

Immersive Sims are not simulators.

is this what they call full circle

 

[HansDampf]

You mean like the parking garage where Larry sends you to steal briefcase number 1? Or the Skyline Apartment building that is just one single vent-network with apartments attached?

Yes, there were some convenient vents there, but these maps still looked realistic and would work without vents just fine. Also there are over 100 maps in Bloodlines and I would guess about 10% have vents. Maybe I am misremembering things, but I have the feeling 100% of all Deus Ex game maps had vents !

Deus Ex also has realistic looking maps, just running on an older engine. I remember we've had this discussion before. I mentioned that the first mission in DX, the entire Liberty Island map, has exactly one short vent. Some other maps like the MJ12 Lab go nuts with them. But counting them would be pointless. Maps in Deus Ex are, on average, larger and more complex than in Bloodlines, with many different buildings you can enter without requiring a mapload, each of which may or may not have vents.

 

[thesheeep]

Guys, you have to stop venting.

Spoiler

Spoiler

I bet you knew what was in the spoiler, but still checked.

Spoiler

Gotcha again.

 

[Wesp5]

Deus Ex also has realistic looking maps, just running on an older engine.

Agreed, but this isn't an argument for it's successors! Also mods like GMDX have done a lot to improve the maps even on the older engine. But back on topic, whatever Paradox is teasing, it seems to play in the old World of Darkness and I really hope it's a living or rather undead world and for a change not one after some kind of apocalyptic event which I can't stand anymore, see Fallout, Rage, Metro, Stalker, Deus Ex, Prey... I think in VtM V5, where the Tender app hints at, Gehenna never happened and the world is close to what we know today .

 

[Space Nugget]

 

[Jedi Exile]

I didn't know what will happen in this thread when I typed 'immersive sim' (and I did so because I was too lazy to find a better definition for the kind of games Looking Glass used to make and Arkane is still making). I love games they made, but it is a very different approach from Troika. They are not making RPGs, and what made Bloodlines a great game was role-playing, choices and consequences. You could make different characters from different classes and use lots of ways to solve quests. Just like in Fallout or Arcanum. You don't have such freedom of role-playing in Arkane games or even in Deus Ex.

 

[Space Nugget]

Martin Ka'ai Cluney, Creative Director at Hardsuit Labs, deleted his previous Twitter account.

 

[Twiglard]

Deus Ex also has realistic looking maps, just running on an older engine.

I tried hard to like it. The levels are all kinds of gray with blocky shapes, as if made in 15 minutes for Quake 1. Point lights are more like lens flares than something adding to the atmosphere. It's still possible to provide good aesthetics with such technical limitations but that's not it. Dark gray. Semi-dark gray. Bluish-dark gray. Some tiled brick texture. Go figure.

 

[Space Nugget]

If I had to guess, I'd say Brian Mitsoda was involved from the start. It's the only way I see the Hardsuit Labs project proposal getting a green light. I mean, who the fuck are these people? No experience with RPGs whatsoever.

By their online interactions, Martin and Annie Mitsoda seem to be close friends, then, hypothetically, Brian would be among the first to know. Maybe it was (in part) his idea, to begin with. As Brian is one of the main figures behind Bloodlines, his contribuition to the pitch, or even by just joining the team as a would-be lead narrative designer/lead writer would make it hard to reject (as Obsidian is not a option anymore). Remember what Paradox said after the 33% acquisition: "We have much confidence in the team built by Hardsuit Labs". Maybe Brian brought some Troika/Obsidian vets with him, who knows...

Of course, I'm just guessing.

P.S.: As a said in another post, Annie is working at System Era Softworks. DoubleBear seems to be "on-hold" (a hiatus maybe?). So Brian has to be pulling his weight too.

 

[Roguey]

Actually Stalker: SoC has only a barebones plot smaller than 2-3 side quest chains in some Fallout 2 or Arcanum.

Shadow of Chernobyl has a ton of narrative, which is more than just plot.

Apparently your point is that a VtM game would gain by being an "immersive sim", in lieu of more traditional RPG elements? I don't see you backing it up with any analysis, but I could be wrong–this thread is 20 pages after all. In the end, it's a claim for you to try to prove rather than for others to try to disprove from the get-go.

All I'm saying is that Bloodlines is not an immersive sim. There are good ones and bad ones, just as there are good and bad RPGs. Troika certainly did not need to expand the scope of what Bloodlines was; if anything, they needed to cut it by a good bit more.

 

[Life of the Party]

If I had to guess, I'd say Brian Mitsoda was involved from the start.

Most likely.

A VtM game with no Mitsoda being made in Seattle of all places would be quite a coincidence.

 

[Cael]

Guys, you have to stop venting.

Spoiler

Spoiler

I bet you knew what was in the spoiler, but still checked.

Spoiler

Gotcha again.

These guys keep going and Peter Parker won't have to make any more of his special sauce for his alter ego...

 

[Wesp5]

If I had to guess, I'd say Brian Mitsoda was involved from the start.

He sure seems to be interested in the WoD! When I emailed him long ago asking for info about unused Bloodlines content we found, he wrote: "Personally, I would love to return to the World of Darkness for a future project."

 

[Twiglard]

Actually Stalker: SoC has only a barebones plot smaller than 2-3 side quest chains in some Fallout 2 or Arcanum.

Shadow of Chernobyl has a ton of narrative, which is more than just plot.

Yeah. Even abandoned places without any relevance or elaboration oozed mid-late Soviet engineering. I don't think that the developers would even be capable of making a branching dialogue-heavy questline to begin with. I liked how it left much to the imagination rather than having actual, but mediocre elaborations on the themes. Comparing SoC to CoP is like Portal vs Portal 2, in a way. Less is more.

Troika certainly did not need to expand the scope of what Bloodlines was; if anything, they needed to cut it by a good bit more.

What exactly do you have in mind? From my lurking days, people hated late-game combat areas the most. I didn't like the trash combat even starting from Grout's mansion, either.

But I'd leave the quest hubs and side quests totally alone. Maybe make one hub less to spend more time on the other ones. Ah, the Last Round corridor...

 

[Infinitron]

FWIW, the rumor I heard about Mitsoda seemed to imply that he was in some sort of "consulting" position, not employed full-time as a creative lead or whatever. But who knows.

 

[Roguey]

What exactly do you have in mind? From my lurking days, people hated late-game combat areas the most. I didn't like the trash combat even starting from Grout's mansion, either.

But I'd leave the quest hubs and side quests totally alone. Maybe make one hub less to spend more time on the other ones. Ah, the Last Round corridor...

They could have removed Chinatown, sure. All those combat crawly final areas (the vampire hunters, the hotel in particular, the temple, and the Prince's building) also could have been smaller if reworking them wasn't an option.