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KickStarter Vampire Syndicate: Gangs of MoonFall

Harthwain

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Aside from Wrath of Malachi and A Vampyre Story, how many games use gothic vampire tropes?
Just in case; I said "common vampire tropes", not "gothic vampire tropes". Blood Omen 1 uses those specifically (you rest in the crypt containing the coffin with "the soil of your grave", you travel using bat form, you can transfrom into a (were)wolf, etc.). Soul Reaver, on the other hand, makes extensive use of vampire weaknesses (daylight, fire, water, etc.), which makes sense considering you mostly fight vampires.

At this point, there’s been so many different takes on vampires that saying you’re using the stereotypes or defying them is a pointless thing to say.
I disagree. Using the stereotypes is obvious and the most commonly observed thing. On the other hand, defying them isn't popular enough. They are forgotten at worst or extremely obscure at best.

For protagonists? How many breakaway from stereotypes? What are the stereotypes and how prevalent are they? [...] Specifically in video games, vampires don’t even appear often enough or significantly enough for there to be common expectations for them in gameplay. Beyond “has fangs” and “drinks blood”, I guess.
:notsureifserious:

Vampires drinking blood, not being able to go out during daylight, not ageing, not being able to cross running water, reacting strongly to holy water and garlic, having heart and head as their weak points (also that a vampire can create another vampire) are all common knowledge by this point. They are so commonplace it is literally impossible to not run into them.

Maybe they don’t say exactly that, because they’re not that stupid, but the people I chatted with are so media illiterate that they effectively think so.
You can always find some idiots who have no idea what they're talking about. No need to worry about plagiarism accusations from them.
 

lightbane

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Regarding vampires, there's that book of Terry Pratched that talked about them, I don't remember the title, but it was a Discworld title that talked about vampires, their weaknesses, and why "traditional vampires" are better than nu-Vampires with new (and empty) values.
 

RaggleFraggle

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Vampires drinking blood, not being able to go out during daylight, not ageing, not being able to cross running water, reacting strongly to holy water and garlic, having heart and head as their weak points (also that a vampire can create another vampire) are all common knowledge by this point. They are so commonplace it is literally impossible to not run into them.
I was asking for examples of video games in the popular consciousness. There’s really nothing beyond Alistair in BG3, BloodRayne, Castlevania, Bloodlines and Legacy of Kain, I guess. Not a lot of data points. Most of those use the gothic stereotypes, almost to a tee.

Anyway, I don’t really think it matters. Tropes are tools. What matters is the skill of the writer. A Vampyre Story uses all the gothic stereotypes and it’s a fun game.

If you want to make a game that defies stereotypes, then go ahead? I have every faith in you
 

lightbane

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Vampire and werewolf or both games are rare nowadays because it requires more work than straight-forward fantasy, for not to mention both beings, especially vampires, are tricky morality-wise, making the writing more complicated. Roguelikes are excluded, of course, but these are niche. Both creatures are also potentially very powerful, which also makes them difficult to balance.
 
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Twiglard

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Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut
Tyranicon, can you elaborate on how the gameplay is going to look like?

The recent video showed some urban outdoor locations. Does it mean that we'll be able to walk down the street in first person to soak in the atmosphere, break into people's apartments and do side quests?

Bloodlines got a bit of criticism about its streets being too corridor-like. Having town hubs consisting of multiple intersections would be good. There's this amazing Gary's Mod map called rp_nycity (see video). I'm not into Gary's mod but the map looks absolutely amazing, perhaps you'd like to check it out.
 
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Harthwain

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I was asking for examples of video games in the popular consciousness.
Then it's a pointless question, considering video games didn't "invent vampires" to begin with.

There’s really nothing beyond Alistair in BG3, BloodRayne, Castlevania, Bloodlines and Legacy of Kain, I guess. Not a lot of data points.
You forgot about Vampire: The Masquerade - Swansong, Vampyr and Vampire Survivors. These are the more popular/known titles.

But there are waaaay more "data points" than that when it comes to vampires in games: Immortal Realms: Vampire Wars, V Rising, Evil West, Total War: Warhammer (1 & 2), The Last Faith, Vampire: The Masquerade - Coteries of New York, Vampire: The Masquerade - Shadows of New York, Vampire: The Masquerade - Justice, Vampire: The Masquerade - Reckoning of New York, The Masquerade - Night Road, Blood Knights, Vampire: The Masquerade - Parliament of Knives, DARK, Vampire's Fall: Origins, The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt - Blood and Wine DLC (I am including this, since you mentioned "Alistar in BG3")...

To be clear; these are but a fraction of games about vampires and they are fairly recent examples (read: most of them are less than 10 years old), so you are looking at even more titles than the ones I've mentioned.

What about the upcoming ones then? The Vampire Clans, Vampire Syndicate: Gangs of MoonFall, Vampire Dynasty, Few Nights More...

So, yeah, "there is really NOTHING" out there about vampires! Oh, wait...
 

RaggleFraggle

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But there are waaaay more "data points" than that when it comes to vampires in games
How many of those are actually good? Most of those you listed are Paradox’s crappy shovelware games clogging up Steam results. Sturgeon’s law is still in full effect here. Who gives a crap about Swansong?

There are no memorable vampire-themed games except for a handful of titles like Bloodlines, most of which were made prior to 2010. If there were, then there wouldn’t be multiple people here complaining about the dearth.

Vampire and werewolf or both games are rare nowadays because it requires more work than straight-forward fantasy, for not to mention both beings, especially vampires, are tricky morality-wise, making the writing more complicated. Roguelikes are excluded, of course, but these are niche. Both creatures are also potentially very powerful, which also makes them difficult to balance.
They were always rare. I don’t think those are convincing reasons for the dearth. Video games are already chock full of tortured antiheroes who go on mass killing sprees. No, video games are hugely trend driven and risk averse. Since no IP prominently featuring vampires has taken off, publishers are averse to investing in such games.

That doesn’t explain indies, tho. Most of the indie games I could find are Western-made otome games like Vampire Therapist.
 

Tyranicon

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Tyranicon, can you elaborate on how the gameplay is going to look like?

The recent video showed some urban outdoor locations. Does it mean that we'll be able to walk down the street in first person to soak in the atmosphere, break into people's apartments and do side quests?

Yes, you will be able to walk down streets, around interiors (clubs, hideouts, offices, shops, etc). Just don't expect anything close to the scale of GTA or open-world games. It's hub-based, semi-open world.

The structure of the game world will be similar to Memoirs: you have player housing and bases, you have small city locations you can walk around in, you can enter certain buildings, you can travel to other city locations via subway (maybe other methods), and there will be an overworld component.

You'll be able to talk to NPCs in these locations and that's where you'll pick up quests.

The overworld component will be the mechanic that probably changes the most, as I'm not sure if I'm going to stick with 2D, but on the other hand, a 3D version will be much more complicated. In Memoirs, it worked as a sort of Battle Brothers lite. I think in Vampire Syndicate, it'll become its own thing.
 

Harthwain

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How many of those are actually good? Most of those you listed are Paradox’s crappy shovelware games clogging up Steam results. Sturgeon’s law is still in full effect here. Who gives a crap about Swansong?
Vampyr is seen by the mainstream as a decent vampire game. Vampire Survivors is a smash hit. Swansong was seen as potentially interesting, until it released and turned out to be underwhelming. I am expecting exactly the same scenario with Bloodlines 2 (or even worse, considering the attention it got on account of being an official sequel to a well-known game).

There are no memorable vampire-themed games except for a handful of titles like Bloodlines, most of which were made prior to 2010. If there were, then there wouldn’t be multiple people here complaining about the dearth.
Multiple people? Like who? Because you're pretty much the only person who comes to mind when it comes to complaining about there not being enough "urban fantasy" settings with vampires. Other people mainly complain about the dearth of RPGs in general or - more specifically - about the DIRECTION of the vampire games in this day and age, but that's a different argument from the one you're trying to make.
 

KeighnMcDeath

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Do you all remember a comic that had zombies that were called Net-zombies? They died being on the network all the time and eventually were hooked into the net/web. They had all sorts of gadgets hooked into them. I could easily see these slaves working fir a vampire syndicate. Call them zombies/ghouls/ghuls/guls w/e.

I've read enough of the weird vampires of Malaysia that are variants of the penanggalan. Oh what was this one I saw? Same MO, wonan by day but transformed at night but from waist up flew off to find pregnant women and with their long tongues devour the beating heart of the baby or fetus.

There was an african cricket vampire that drank blood.

Vampires drinking the fluid surrounding our spines and brains.

Obvious psychic vampires.

Vampires that drank the knowledge from books leaving them blank. Same sort variant that ate data from computers and servers.

Element vamps eating fire/electricity/cold.

Plant vampires

The oddest... solar vampires that devoured sunlight creating darkness. One myth is these are how black holes started.
 

Harthwain

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Harthwain Do you have any ideas for more original takes on vampires that you’d like to see in video games?
One idea I was thinking about was vampirism as a disease.

This concept could be taken in different directions (for one: a disease isn't as controllable in its spread as deliberate passing of the curse of vampirism). You can also be more realistic with how vampirism works and its effects. Of course, this rules out vampires having cool superpowers, but having superhuman strength, agility, perception, etc. is good enough on its own.

The relationship between a vampire and blood should be more to that of a drug addict needing another dose of his drug. In theory this is already taken into the account in some settings, but in practical terms (especially in games) the outcome is very lacking. This is true for any addiction in games, by the way.
 

RaggleFraggle

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One idea I was thinking about was vampirism as a disease.

This concept could be taken in different directions (for one: a disease isn't as controllable in its spread as deliberate passing of the curse of vampirism). You can also be more realistic with how vampirism works and its effects. Of course, this rules out vampires having cool superpowers, but having superhuman strength, agility, perception, etc. is good enough on its own.
As I recall, there’s a fair amount of fiction that treat vampirism as a pathogen or even an alien nanite, altho none of them are realistic because the whole thing violates physics (namely, no organism larger than a small bird or bat could survive exclusively on blood). It could be an explicitly magical disease. Folklore is full of vampire epidemics.

Take the Shadow Plague in Plague, Inc. The shadow plague doesn’t turn the infected into vampires, altho they demonstrate symptoms reminiscent of vampirism. If you take the upgrade, then occasionally infectees will drop dead and reanimate as vampires with magical powers.

Of course, as far as video games go you have think about what makes for a good video game. Having to worry about controlling the spread sounds like it would be too much hassle unless the entire plot revolves around a vampirism epidemic. Limiting the superpowers to less flashy effects also seems like it wouldn't be much different from a game without vampires.

The relationship between a vampire and blood should be more to that of a drug addict needing another dose of his drug. In theory this is already taken into the account in some settings, but in practical terms (especially in games) the outcome is very lacking. This is true for any addiction in games, by the way.
I'm not sure it's even feasible to depict addiction struggles in a playable way. I did find a game book that treats vampirism as an addiction (to the point where the vampires don't need blood to survive, so they can realistically go cold turkey), but that sounds like it would be really hard to make into a video game. Normally a video game treats the blood drinking as simply the way to refill the mana meter, so it's probably hard to do more complex stuff with that without making it frustrating.

Maybe treat it as a lightside/darkside deal (like that book explains)? The more you give into vampirism and feed the hunger, the more powers and other vampiric connections and temporal power you get, but at the same time you lose human connections and become less able to interact and overcome obstacles as a human being. E.g. initially you can persuade people with logic or seduction, but after becoming vampiric in that respect you can only rely on outright mind control.


Anyway, an idea I thought about has to do with vampiric factions (clans, bloodlines, covens, w/e). In Bloodlines, you can play as one of seven "clans" (classes, basically, some with more or less exclusive options) and during the course of play you can pledge allegiance to one of several characters and their respective faction. Now, the writing can't decide whether clans are factions or not. While a vampire can choose who to align with, he cannot change his clan. Yet he is still free not align with any faction that claims to be that clan. It reminds me of modern identity politics and all those irrationalities.

I think a more elegant way to handle this is to firmly commit to one or the other. Either a vampire's bloodline is or isn't a political faction.
  • MoonFall solves this by making it a choice on the part of the vampire-to-be to join a faction, and the higher ups in that faction have control over who gets to join. You can leave the faction, but can't found a new one without going through the presumably extremely laborious process of inventing a new ritual of vampirization.
  • Bloodlust: Nemesis takes the approach of allowing you to build rapport with different clans to learn their signature powers. In this case, the choice of clan at character creation just makes it easier to learn some powers, but doesn't restrict you from learning others.
  • Have explicitly separate axes of character creation/customization for a vampire's bloodline and a vampire's faction. For example, you might have different factions like the Hellfire Club and the Cult of the Dead who accept members of all bloodlines.
  • Allow the character to choose their bloodline, rather than the player out-of-character. Maybe they start in a provisional position before joining a bloodline, like a mortal pledge or a juvenile vampire. Maybe a vampire can change their bloodline at some point, joining another or even creating their own.
That sort of thing. Any number of ways you could do it.
 

lightbane

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I'm not sure it's even feasible to depict addiction struggles in a playable way.
Mouthwash (yes, that's the title) touches the topic of addiction, specifically alcohol addiction, but that game is a walking sim.

video game treats the blood drinking as simply the way to refill the mana meter,
It also can be the HP meter for a vampire, and usually it's the case.
 

Lord_Potato

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Okay, I talked the talk, time to walk the walk.

Never before have I backed a project on Kickstarter. Didn't even have an account there.

I did buy some early access titles on Steam and GOG and my fortune in this regard was spotty - sometimes the games turned out fine, sometimes they were abandoned or left in never-ending limbo. Probably the latter happened more often than the former. So I have reasons for trust issues when it comes to game development and taking my money upfront.

HOWEVER, I played most of your games Tyranicon (except for Baldr's Squid, waiting for some final content there to jump in) and I know you do deliver.

So, I set up an account and made a pledge for Vampire Syndicate. Nothing crazy, just 34$ for the game itself. You won't have to design an NPC or a romanceable party member just for me.

Looking forward to another good game!
 

Harthwain

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As I recall, there’s a fair amount of fiction that treat vampirism as a pathogen or even an alien nanite, altho none of them are realistic because the whole thing violates physics (namely, no organism larger than a small bird or bat could survive exclusively on blood). It could be an explicitly magical disease. Folklore is full of vampire epidemics.
1) I recall one webcomic using vampirism as a disease and vampires there were used as pretty much a different version of zombies. I don't recall anything else. "Magical disease" doesn't really cut it, as it is very similar to an ancient curse or some other mysticism.

2) "Folklore is full of vampire epidemics" is simply not a correct statement - yes, there was a correlation between epidemics and people believing someone turned into a vampire, but vampires weren't the cause of epidemics, only suspicious deaths. That's a significant difference.

Of course, as far as video games go you have think about what makes for a good video game. Having to worry about controlling the spread sounds like it would be too much hassle unless the entire plot revolves around a vampirism epidemic. Limiting the superpowers to less flashy effects also seems like it wouldn't be much different from a game without vampires.
1) It all depends on what kind of game you want to make. You don't need to have focus on the "epidemic" aspect of vampirism being a disease. Just because it is a disease doesn't have to mean it will be as viral as typical zombie viruses in video games and/or movies.

2) I'd argue you can have a satisfying game with being limited "only" to physical "powers". For example, I loved grabbing a car and running up a skyscrapper in [PROTOTYE] (or doing parkour as well as running Matrix-style by using buildings' sides).

I'm not sure it's even feasible to depict addiction struggles in a playable way. I did find a game book that treats vampirism as an addiction (to the point where the vampires don't need blood to survive, so they can realistically go cold turkey), but that sounds like it would be really hard to make into a video game. Normally a video game treats the blood drinking as simply the way to refill the mana meter, so it's probably hard to do more complex stuff with that without making it frustrating.
But that's the problem: it shouldn't go down to just "refilling the mana meter". It should have an effect, it should be important aspect of the game. It should make you WANT to not be starved for blood.

Maybe treat it as a lightside/darkside deal (like that book explains)? The more you give into vampirism and feed the hunger, the more powers and other vampiric connections and temporal power you get, but at the same time you lose human connections and become less able to interact and overcome obstacles as a human being. E.g. initially you can persuade people with logic or seduction, but after becoming vampiric in that respect you can only rely on outright mind control.
Vampyr did that (or something similar. I don't recall how useful people were in that game to keep them around).
 

RaggleFraggle

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Magical disease" doesn't really cut it, as it is very similar to an ancient curse or some other mysticism.
What’s the diff? Disease, curse… Still violates the laws of physics either way.

but vampires weren't the cause of epidemics, only suspicious deaths. That's a significant difference.
Back then, lots of bad events were attributed to vampires. Plagues, crop failures… before germ theory and meteorology, what were they supposed to believe?


Just because it is a disease doesn't have to mean it will be as viral as typical zombie viruses in video games and/or movies.
So one of those hard to transmit diseases like leprosy?

I'd argue you can have a satisfying game with being limited "only" to physical "powers". For example, I loved grabbing a car and running up a skyscrapper in [PROTOTYE] (or doing parkour as well as running Matrix-style by using buildings' sides).
I thought you meant stuff limited by real physics. So you mean superpowers that defy physics, but nothing that you arbitrarily decide is “magic”?

it shouldn't go down to just "refilling the mana meter". It should have an effect, it should be important aspect of the game. It should make you WANT to not be starved for blood.
What do you suggest? Can you implement that without it being frustrating?

Can you do it in a way that does addiction justice? Like, addictions are inherently bad. That’s why they’re called addictions. They negatively affect addicts and those around them. Feeding the addiction makes it worse. You’ll do all sorts of harmful and self-destructive things to feed it. Would vampires have the option to go cold turkey or even cure the addiction?

Vampyr did that (or something similar. I don't recall how useful people were in that game to keep them around).
It does moral choices in a very shallow fashion that doesn’t resemble what I described at all.
 

Harthwain

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What’s the diff? Disease, curse… Still violates the laws of physics either way.
The difference is that one straight up violates the laws of physics. The other plays along (hence the difference between a curse/magic and a disease).

Back then, lots of bad events were attributed to vampires. Plagues, crop failures… before germ theory and meteorology, what were they supposed to believe?
Point is, people tried to explain what they considered suspicious deaths. This goes beyond just epidemics. By the way, the ancients would know that a disease is a thing that can kill people, even if they - too - had no idea about germs as such and thought the causes were supernatural (such as the wraith of the gods or similar).

So one of those hard to transmit diseases like leprosy?
Or the process of feeding/the disease is more likely to kill you, meaning you won't turn into a vampire, because you have to be alive for the transformation to be complete. Again, you can shape it any way you like.

I thought you meant stuff limited by real physics. So you mean superpowers that defy physics, but nothing that you arbitrarily decide is “magic”?
I think you're confusing fiction with magic. Getting stronger and faster, or having your metabolism slowed down so much that you're not ageing is hardly "defying physics" the way magic does it.

What do you suggest? Can you implement that without it being frustrating?
Making it into a resource managing combined with interesting side-effects could be the way of doing it in a satisfying way. The Consuming Shadow did a really good job with sanity, for example.

Would vampires have the option to go cold turkey or even cure the addiction?
That'd defeat the point of being a vampire, wouldn't it?
 

Torus

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Vampyr is seen by the mainstream as a decent vampire game. Vampire Survivors is a smash hit. Swansong was seen as potentially interesting, until it released and turned out to be underwhelming. I am expecting exactly the same scenario with Bloodlines 2 (or even worse, considering the attention it got on account of being an official sequel to a well-known game).

Why are you using Vampire Survivors as an example of a vampire game? It was a running joke by the developers the entire time i played that there was no vampire in it. Is it just "there's a picture of one on the main screen and some coffins ingame"?
 

RaggleFraggle

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The difference is that one straight up violates the laws of physics. The other plays along (hence the difference between a curse/magic and a disease).
A creature larger than a vampire bat or vampire finch surviving entirely on blood equally violates the laws of physics. Saying a disease explanation is more realistic is complete nonsense. It’s physics-defying magic either way because human-sized hematophages are physically impossible no matter what the explanation. That’s why there are no hematophages in reality larger than a couple tens of grams.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hematophagy

That'd defeat the point of being a vampire, wouldn't it?
If you don’t commit to an addiction metaphor, then that defeats the point of using an addiction metaphor. Addictions can be resisted and cured, that’s why they’re called addictions and not vital nutrients.

Otherwise, you’re mangling the metaphor into giving the message that addictions can’t be cured and addicts should be treated with stakes to the heart to protect other people from them. I’d expect that from Bloober Team, but I’d have thought codexers knew better.

Have you watched Forever Knight? There’s an ongoing subplot where Nick is trying to go cold turkey and drink substitutes in an attempt to cure his vampirism. This subplot is never resolved, but there is evidence in the show that it can work because in one episode a vampire does become human. If vampirism was truly incurable, then this subplot would be pointless and the show would lack any hope.

The message that vampirism is curable and vampires hold onto it out of ignorance, fear, greed and, yes, addiction, is a far more applicable message than “the only cure is death!”

Of course, if you want a mangled metaphor, or no metaphor at all, then go wild, I guess.
 

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