KickStarter Underworld Ascendant is a disaster

[<3sRichardSimmons]

It seems likely to me that OS management wanted the game out as soon as possible. There are two reasons that occur to me as to why:

1) OS management had no more money to invest in the development.

2) OS management is deeply out of touch with current market realities, and was operating under an early 90s mindset of "If your launch slips past Black Friday you might as well cancel the whole project".

 

[Steamboat Willie]

For the record: I can no longer edit or delete the original post; any legal responsibility for its contents now lies with this site's administrators.

Good going. Thanks to you everyone knows what "ratrogue" said.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

John Q. Ratrogue is going to be very upset when he learns that I've revealed his home address is 1337 Sheepbarbarian Lane, Fightystabbytown in the country of Redwallia.

 

[BEvers]

The to-be-deleted posts in question:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/692840/discussions/0/1679189548072319990/#c1679189548072708730

https://steamcommunity.com/app/692840/discussions/0/1679189548072319990/#c1679189548075815627

https://steamcommunity.com/app/692840/discussions/0/1679189548072319990/?ctp=2#c1676938384240128723

 

[MasterLobar]

There is no legal obligation whatsoever to blur out nicknames in screenshots from public discussion boards that contain no copyrighted material.

And even if the screenshot contained copyrighted work, it would be fair use and therefore legal in the United States:

fair use is any copying of copyrighted material done for a limited and “transformative” purpose, such as to comment upon, criticize, or parody a copyrighted work. Such uses can be done without permission from the copyright owner.

https://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/fair-use/what-is-fair-use/

Don't know about other jurisdictions, but I strongly assume it's similar everywhere. Otherwise you couldn't use even limited quotations in discussions of any article, book or song that is copyrighted.

 

[BEvers]

Why would they set an arbitrary deadline for launch and not allow OS to finish the game with their own money? (which is what they are doing now)

Apparently they found a new source of funding after the release:

 

[Steamboat Willie]

There is no legal obligation whatsoever to blur out nicknames in screenshots from public discussion boards that contain no copyrighted material.

Exactly. It's like complaining about an embedded Tweet.

 

[MasterLobar]

That's pretty stunning. She just confirmed OS is technically bankrupt and the only thing that's keeping it afloat is cash provided by "Paul" (Neurath, I assume).

 

[Nyast]

No, no, you guys didn't get the memo. That money is coming from Ultima Ascendant. Sales went better than expected ! Promised ! Warren said so himself in this interview:

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...ector-if-immersive-sims-disappear-i-disappear

While the System Shock 3 director can't speak for other companies' games, he does know Underworld Ascendant has "done well enough to get our next game funded" -- although he said he doesn't know the exact sales figure.

Meanwhile, SteamSpy reports 11000 owned copies (which do not equal sales, Kickstarter backers have a copy too !) and game was already on sale for a while, draw your own conclusions:

http://steamspy.com/dev/OtherSide+Entertainment

 

[Roguey]

Why's Sam so invested in this, she's just a community manager.

 

[Cael]

There is no legal obligation whatsoever to blur out nicknames in screenshots from public discussion boards that contain no copyrighted material.

And even if the screenshot contained copyrighted work, it would be fair use and therefore legal in the United States:

fair use is any copying of copyrighted material done for a limited and “transformative” purpose, such as to comment upon, criticize, or parody a copyrighted work. Such uses can be done without permission from the copyright owner.

https://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/fair-use/what-is-fair-use/

Don't know about other jurisdictions, but I strongly assume it's similar everywhere. Otherwise you couldn't use even limited quotations in discussions of any article, book or song that is copyrighted.

So long as it is quoted completely and attributed, you can post anything a person said. It is not against the law to speak facts, unless you are in a leftard area, where it would be verbooten unless it conforms to the Party narrative.

 

[grimace]

No, no, you guys didn't get the memo. That money is coming from Ultima Ascendant. Sales went better than expected ! Promised ! Warren said so himself in this interview:

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...ector-if-immersive-sims-disappear-i-disappear



Meanwhile, SteamSpy reports 11000 owned copies (which do not equal sales, Kickstarter backers have a copy too !) and game was already on sale for a while, draw your own conclusions:

http://steamspy.com/dev/OtherSide+Entertainment

"Also, it's probably time for us to go multiplayer," he concluded. "I think we have to see that. We've been talking about it for years, nobody's done it right."

The history of the immersive sim is one of single-player campaigns, so how on Earth would a multiplayer version work?

"If I told you, I'd have to kill you," Spector said. Or perhaps use a stealth takedown, or hack this article -- there's always another choice.

The article ends on a cliffhanger!

" . . . it's probably time for us to go multiplayer . . . "

This is the real nightmare.

 

[Grauken]

The only thing that is appropriate for Spector at this point is this song title "Reality used to be a friend of mine"

 

[MasterLobar]

While the System Shock 3 director can't speak for other companies' games, he does know Underworld Ascendant has "done well enough to get our next game funded" -- although he said he doesn't know the exact sales figure.

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...ector-if-immersive-sims-disappear-i-disappear

In all honesty, I don't understand these people. Why is he lying in a manner that is so obvious for everyone?

Even if you don't believe SteamSpy: This game has received just 10 new reviews since Update 3 came out two weeks ago and buyers got 50% off. Reviews aren't sales, but what is the ratio between buyers and reviewers? 10:1? 20:1? 50:1?

Despite launching a new update and a 50% discount, this game is selling perhaps 200 copies per week and maybe even less. AND EVERYONE KNOWS IT.

But still he says UA "has done well enough to get the next game funded." He must know that this is a lie and that it is obvious to everyone.

PANTS ON FIRE

He also says he doesn't "know the exact sales figure." That may technically be true. He may not know if it sold 11,168 or 11,169 copies. But does he really want to make us believe he doesn't have a rough estimate?

And what a company is this where a top manager of the company doesn't know the sales figure for their only product in the market???

LIES LIES LIES

How can these obvious lies lead to anything else than any investor treating Otherside as radioactive?

If I were a publisher potentially interested in SS3, I would stay lightyears away from this bunch of liars.

 

[Norfleet]

I don't see why you would: These aren't private conversations from sources you wish to protect. If you don't want your name attached to something you said in a public Internet venue, you should have used a sockpuppet like a NORMAL person.

 

[Gord]

Even if you don't believe SteamSpy: This game has received just 10 new reviews since Update 3 came out two weeks ago and buyers got 50% off. Reviews aren't sales, but what is the ratio between buyers and reviewers? 10:1? 20:1? 50:1?

Many more buyers per reviewer actually, I think. There was some interesting statistics on that by some indie dev here on the codex, some time ago (unfortunately I don't remember by whom or when, probably related to the indiepocalypse thing).
Nevertheless, we can safely assume that the amount of sales is pretty small.

But still he says UA "has done well enough to get the next game funded." He must know that this is a lie and that it is obvious to everyone.

I guess that if there's any truth to the statement that UA allowed them to fund other projects, it's most likely due to the money they got from the publisher, not from sales.
We don't know the exact content of the contract with 505, but afaik it's not too unusual to be paid according to milestones? E.g. release the game by some date, deliver a console version, etc.
So I think it's possible they got some more bucks from 505 after the release of the game?

 

[MasterLobar]

Many more buyers per reviewer actually, I think.

Actually not that many more. According to this article, the average is one review per 82 buyers:

"Back in 2014, before SteamSpy, I wrote this article about using Steam’s review count to estimate sales. [...] The average from my dataset is 82x and the median is 77x. e.g. if a game has 1000 reviews you can estimate it has sold about 80000 units."

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/JakeBirkett/20180504/317366/Using_Steam_reviews_to_estimate_sales.php

The number of reviews before Update 3 (10th April) was 355. Today, April 25th, that number is 365.

So 10 reviews means 820 copies sold in the 2 weeks after a major update and including several days at a 50% discount.

I stand by my estimate that in a typical week, they are selling no more than 200 copies.

 

[Efe]

even if they lie about sales figures, what the fuck is it to you?
ii understand your rightful complaints but this is just autism.
let it go

 

[MasterLobar]

Efe: What is it to me? I was a backer of this project. I was deceived and defrauded.

I backed on a very low tier, but there are dozens of backers who entrusted these people with hundreds of dollars. In total, they received over $900,000 for what turned out to be nothing but lies.

Sorry, bro, but I feel entitled to point out when they are brazenly lying about their game and their financial situation so they can ruin more games and defraud more people in the future.

 

[Glic2000]

They aren't seriously going to try multiplayer next are they? If there's one thing that drives me insane about modern gaming it's when developers think every game can/should be made multiplayer.

(I know SS2 did technically have a co-op mode but it didn't really work that well).

 

[agris]

Often the older people get, the more they relish in using their skills to great effect.

I think they found that their skills and experience were no longer relevant given the constraints they'd set for themselves (budget and design goals). Coding an "evolved" late 1980s blobber (basically what Ultima Underworld was) turns out be different from trying to twist the Unity Engine into the Ultimate Action RPG with Dark Messiah combat, Thief stealth and Arx Fatalis magic (or whatever).

Do you really believe this? Their professional development didn't end with UU, they went on to found LGS and made SS1/2, T1/2 etc. Do you think concepts such as engineering proofs of concepts, functional tests, scoping and prototyping were unknown to them by the time LGS folded? That they didn't have to manage projects and negotiated deliverables with publishers? I really have trouble believing that.

For similar reasons, I have trouble swallowing the narrative you suggested Doctor Sbaitso. Sure, UU may have started with geeks at MIT, but they went on to found a company and publish games into the year 2000. They surely had to do the above before making concrete statements about what will or will not be in a game, and even if those changed, no game released by LGS (that I'm aware of - but I'm certainly not a LGS aficionado) was in as remotely as bad a state as UA.

This is why I expect there were people involved in the production of games at LGS that were critical, but did not work with Otherside. As with a lot of collective creative efforts, names get attached to projects often unfairly, because it simplifies a media narrative. And while people love reading and digesting nice little stories about visionary X or Y propelling something to greatness, the true picture is often a lot more complex and relies on a lot of people that go relatively unnoticed.

 

[Infinitron]

Do you really believe this? Their professional development didn't end with UU, they went on to found LGS and made SS1/2, T1/2 etc. Do you think concepts such as engineering proofs of concepts, functional tests, scoping and prototyping were unknown to them by the time LGS folded? That they didn't have to manage projects and negotiated deliverables with publishers? I really have trouble believing that.

I would say that awareness of what they could and couldn't do with modern middleware engines wasn't known to them from the LGS days. "Hey, look how easy it is to prototype something with Unity, we can make the Ultimate RPG with this with no budget!"

But I agree that beyond that there was also an ethical lapse here. They must have eventually realized they were fucking things up but decided to press on anyway, because that's what they felt like doing basically. An ethical studio would have scrapped the game and rebooted it as a low budget retro project.

There's something deeply weird about OtherSide's culture. Some people have interpreted that as confusion. My take is that they're utterly convinced that they should never reveal the truth about what they're doing, and the "confusion" arises because different people in the company come up with different versions of bullshit when fans ask questions.

 

[agris]

My take is that they're utterly convinced that they should never reveal the truth about what they're doing, and the "confusion" arises because different people in the company come up with different versions of bullshit when fans ask questions.

Now THAT sounds plausible.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Often the older people get, the more they relish in using their skills to great effect.

I think they found that their skills and experience were no longer relevant given the constraints they'd set for themselves (budget and design goals). Coding an "evolved" late 1980s blobber (basically what Ultima Underworld was) turns out be different from trying to twist the Unity Engine into the Ultimate Action RPG with Dark Messiah combat, Thief stealth and Arx Fatalis magic (or whatever).

Do you really believe this? Their professional development didn't end with UU, they went on to found LGS and made SS1/2, T1/2 etc. Do you think concepts such as engineering proofs of concepts, functional tests, scoping and prototyping were unknown to them by the time LGS folded? That they didn't have to manage projects and negotiated deliverables with publishers? I really have trouble believing that.

For similar reasons, I have trouble swallowing the narrative you suggested Doctor Sbaitso. Sure, UU may have started with geeks at MIT, but they went on to found a company and publish games into the year 2000. They surely had to do the above before making concrete statements about what will or will not be in a game, and even if those changed, no game released by LGS (that I'm aware of - but I'm certainly not a LGS aficionado) was in as remotely as bad a state as UA.

This is why I expect there were people involved in the production of games at LGS that were critical, but did not work with Otherside. As with a lot of collective creative efforts, names get attached to projects often unfairly, because it simplifies a media narrative. And while people love reading and digesting nice little stories about visionary X or Y propelling something to greatness, the true picture is often a lot more complex and relies on a lot of people that go relatively unnoticed.

I'm saying the crop of technical talent they had on UA was way below that of UU. They had guys that rewrote Thief AI and stealth in a week. Hungry MIT grads working for rising stars. Otherside had a revolving door of people, and Will learning Unity via physics trap sandbox levels.

I'm am most disappointed with Tim. This must be his worst work.

 

[MasterLobar]

My take is that they're utterly convinced that they should never reveal the truth about what they're doing, and the "confusion" arises because different people in the company come up with different versions of bullshit when fans ask questions.

And one day all of a sudden, it's going to be like 20 years ago:

Late in the day on May 24, 2000, Paul Neurath called a meeting. The co-founder of Looking Glass Studios asked every employee to attend. (...) "We’re closing," Neurath told the anxious crowd, (...) and the Looking Glass faithful were officially unemployed.

https://www.polygon.com/2015/4/6/8285529/looking-glass-history

Til the last day, these sociopaths are going to tell everyone that everything is fine. The last ones they'll screw over will be their own employees. Poor folks.