Ultima Ultima 7=Decline?

[Awor Szurkrarz]

But even then, is it really that important that tavern wenches actually serve food in a video game? It's a nice detail, but that's the least of what is wrong with games today.

In games that claim to be "immersive", yes it is important.

Personally I missed the Ultima VII stuff a lot when playing Baldur's Gate. Especially after reading the manual.

 

[Junmarko]

Yeah the combat in U7 was a huge let down, but mostly everything else it did was pretty impressive. I'm surprised no one has modded it to feature turn-based combat yet, surely it can't be that hard.

 

[taxalot]

There has been lots of games that tried having a hige immersive and living world. As far as I am concerned, none did as great as Ultima 7.

I am not sure why is that, even after so many years. It could be that special care has been taken in making every characters unique, with the portraits, well crafted dialogs that did not always revolve around a quest, or the fact that none were window-dressing. It could be all the secrets and the graphics that still left a lot to imagination. Or the odd chemistry between the light-hearted world and the dark things that were happening in it. Or just Britannia being Britannia.

I do not know why. A lot of cooks copied the recipe and the ingredients and it still never tasted as good.

 

[Agesilaus]

Agree with taxalot, ultima 7 is the best open/living world game every created, full stop. It also had fantastic graphics and an awesome game engine. Probably the best RPG of all time, definitely the best RPG of the early 90s. If you disagree, prepare to be blown up by powder kegs

 

[Kem0sabe]

Ultima 7 Serpent isle was my first "proper" rpg, coming off years of playing my NES and console rpg's, i was amazed at how immersive the game world was.

 

[TheGreatOne]

I never disputed whether it was technically&graphically impressive game for 1992 or not and whether or not it's the best living world/sandbox RPG of all time. I disputed the notion that those features can make it one of the best CRPGs of all time. I don't think any one would take you seriously if you claimed that Doom 3, Crysis or Skyrim were some of the best games of their respective genres due to their cutting edge game engines or carefully crafted worlds. See: mondblut's less apologetic post

definitely the best RPG of the early 90s. If you disagree, prepare to be blown up by powder kegs

 

[Bruma Hobo]

definitely the best RPG of the early 90s. If you disagree, prepare to be blown up by powder kegs

There, fixed for you.

I agree with the rest, while U7 may have an interesting world populated by a huge amount of well written characters, as a CRPG it miserably fails. And even if sometimes its world simulation provided interesting alternatives to solve problems, which is something all true RPGs should strive for, I don't think that's enough by itself.

 

[TheGreatOne]

RTWP

Funny thing is that those solutions to problems stemming from emergent gameplay in U7 were usually un-Avatar like behavior

 

[Agesilaus]

Damn, Darklands was pretty awesome, too; credit where credit is due.

That's why the codex top 100 RPGs list was such a joke; obviously the top ten should have been populated by games like Ultima, Darklands, Geneforge, Nethergate, etc. Instead, we basically got railroaded by a pack of teenagers obsessed with dragon age, planescape, and other assorted nonsense.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

U7 was not decline. There are other examples of excellent role playing games that didn't have typical stats and skill based advancement. King of Dragon Pass is a great example.

I don't go in for the "must have xyz to be an rpg" angle. I know when I am plaging a role in a compelling setting.
U7 is quite an unusual gem like many ultimas are. The fact that it is still unparalleled in world building after 22 years is pretty wild....

Just like underworld is still unparallelled for 3d dungeon crawling IMO.

 

[Jaesun]

U7 was not decline. There are other examples of excellent role playing games that didn't have typical stats and skill based advancement. King of Dragon Pass is a great example..

How is King of Dragons Pass a cRPG exactly?

 

[TigerKnee]

How is King of Dragons Pass a cRPG exactly?

Like, your Ring members totally have stats and stuffles!

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

No stats to speak of really but you are definitely playing clan leader.

 

[Jaesun]

No stats to speak of really but you are definitely playing clan leader.

Playing a Clan Leader is what makes a cRPG?

 

[TripJack]

bro its on the codex top rpg list it must be an rpg

 

[Applypoison]

Keep in mind, Ultima was the kind of series where if you asked the devs "Was turn-based combat a technological limitation?" , they'd probably answer Yes". The game was about escaping to an immersive fantasy world in need of a Hero - and for a lot of people, that was good enough. Combat in Ultima was likely seen as complementary at best, intrusive at worst.

U7 declined much in the same way a lot of high-budget games do, but once you understand "the point" behind those games, it's hard to really have a debate. You can try to enjoy it for what it is, or go toss money to some dreaming dev on kickstarter in exchange for a Guido Henkel autograph.

 

[Agesilaus]

I recall combat being exciting in the sense that it would devolve into a giant cluster fuck with missiles, explosions, and just brutal slaughter everywhere. You had reasonably good control over the avatar, it was basically real-time with pause, and there was plenty of sneaky shit you could do that was hilarious. Who doesn't start the game with a heist or two, and I don't recall any other game where you can do drive by musket-shooting with a horse and cart (mount & blade is the closest I can think of that).

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Comabt was similar in ways to Darklands except your party members had a mind if their own and it was very deadly. It was fun reloading and trying different approaches to battles. I also remembering setting trap areas ans kiting groups of enemies into powder keg minefields lol.

Jaesun, do you consider neither U7 or KODP RPGs? Hard to believe since you seem to be a bit of an Ultima aficionado.

 

[Jaesun]

Jaesun, do you consider neither U7 or KODP RPGs? Hard to believe since you seem to be a bit of an Ultima aficionado.

Ultima 7 (and the later series) is more a cRPG Lite™. Gariott decided to expand and focus on other element of the cRPG genre. I have not played KoDP.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Ultima 7 (and the later series) is more a cRPG Lite™. Gariott decided to expand and focus on other element of the cRPG genre. I have not played KoDP.

Yeah I think I agree with that. It definitely traded tradition for some new ideas.

I recommend KoDP highly, it is quite compelling if you dig it. If you played Banner Saga, it had a similar approach in the way it would present situations or dilemmas for the clan leader to decide on, which would effect the entire clan. That said, KoDP had no direct combat to speak of but was better in the C&C department IMO. You really come to think like a clan leader and your decisions seem to flesh out the persona you imagine yourself to be in that scenario.

 

[Jaesun]

KoDP had no direct combat to speak of but was better in the C&C department IMO.

Choice and Consequences do not a cRPG make. Just FYI. It IS a very vital component however.

 

[RK47]

U7 has the best combat, best story, best exploration in the series.

 

[Mortmal]

Boring and useless topic in order to gather brofists from the wizardry fans. A barely, poorly, disguised "what is a rpg ?"thread....This has been discussed to death already.So yes the thing to do then is to brofist utima 7 fans instead.

 

[RK47]

Funny thing is I'm 100% serious when people ask me which Ultima has the best combat.
Their turn based combat is boring has very little tactical depth and add nothing but tedium.

 

[SuicideBunny]

Funny thing is I'm 100% serious when people ask me which Ultima has the best combat.
Their turn based combat is boring has very little tactical depth and add nothing but tedium.

u8 has better combat, imo.