Game News Torment: Tides of Numenera Released

[Ismaul]

On the other hand your definition of a storyfag is not broad enough. It isn't enough to demand a narrative, it's the part where the need for a narrative/story becomes a detriment to player that really puts the fag in storyfag.

IIRC the rise of the -fag names were not about something being to the detriment of the player, not at all. It was about what aspect you like best in an RPG. Combatfags don't like combat to the point it becomes a detriment to them, they like RPGs where the combat is good, and good combat is to them a requirement for good RPGs.

It's -fag as in

PS:T is a storyfag game, because you have to be a storyfag to enjoy it, because the rest of it is shit. No one will like it for its combat or systems.

 

[Fenix]

11 people companies are looking around now... trying to figure out who to fire

Approximately.
I think optimal number something between 7 and 6.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

On the other hand your definition of a storyfag is not broad enough. It isn't enough to demand a narrative, it's the part where the need for a narrative/story becomes a detriment to player that really puts the fag in storyfag.

IIRC the rise of the -fag names were not about something being to the detriment of the player, not at all. It was about what aspect you like best in an RPG. Combatfags don't like combat to the point it becomes a detriment to them, they like RPGs where the combat is good, and good combat is to them a requirement for good RPGs.

It's -fag as in

PS:T is a storyfag game, because you have to be a storyfag to enjoy it, because the rest of it is shit. No one will like it for its combat or systems.

Yeah, but storyfags are also fags.

 

[Apexeon]

11 people companies are looking around now... trying to figure out who to fire

Approximately.
I think optimal number something between 7 and 6.

Yeap 6-7 passionate developers.

 

[rdx]

yet another non honest try to ride on the 'spiritual successor' fairy tale, pretty blatant kickstarter promises scam, i question the integrity of reviewers that gave this 9/10

 

[l3loodAngel]

PS:T is a storyfag game, because you have to be a storyfag to enjoy it, because the rest of it is shit. No one will like it for its combat or systems.

The game has problems with encounters, itemization and maybe balance. But the combat system itself is solid DnD. And even then the problems do not distract player from the game and builds do matter. That's the biggest problem with the current kickstarters, the builds don't matter and when they do the changes are mostly cosmetic. You have a truly sad state when builds in Kotor 2 (a game with very weak combat system) matter more than in "proper" RPGs.

There is also a thing I don't understand. There are tons of people in the forums with good advices for devs creating combat system/encounters/balancing, but it's like they skip the information and go to the compliments section, or go to Neogaf for advice.

 

[Darkzone]

11 people companies are looking around now... trying to figure out who to fire

Approximately.
I think optimal number something between 7 and 6.

Yes this is the optimal control span, if you have 6 dedicated workers and 1 capable leader. Polish control span is 3 (1 leader and 2 workers). The catholic church is 1 and the one is GOD. And turkisch control span has been never figured out.

 

[Ismaul]

PS:T is a storyfag game, because you have to be a storyfag to enjoy it, because the rest of it is shit. No one will like it for its combat or systems.

But the combat system itself is solid DnD. And even then the problems do not distract player from the game and builds do matter.

Solid D&D? If it was, it would be turn based, like ToEE. Even Conquistador's combat is more "solid D&D" than Torment.

Builds don't matter in Torment, except for the fact that if you didn't pump Int/Wis, you're stupid in every sense. So "combat build" is just something that hampers you if you didn't pick a caster, it matters in the worst way. Plus, who cares about your build? Companions can handle it. Combat is just an annoyance, no matter how you resolve it. If you choose spells, you get cool special effects limited by rest mechanics, that's it for combat. And have you tried multiclassing? Ehhh, switch to a mage, and you can't use anything but a dagger even if you have 10 lvls in fighter and all them proficiencies, and can't stealth even if you have leveled high stealth / backstab skills. This is not solid D&D. Hell, D&D itself isn't really solid, but that's another discussion.

 

[Jezal_k23]

Post-KS Codex: cares about sales as a marker of quality

Not a marker of quality. Torment itself flopped financially on release iirc. But I am curious what inxile will do if this doesn't sell. They probably expected better from this game.

 

[Pope Amole II]

Builds don't matter in Torment, except for the fact that if you didn't pump Int/Wis, you're stupid in every sense. So "combat build" is just something that hampers you if you didn't pick a caster, it matters in the worst way.

You're so wrong, lol. In PST, the build can quite matter. It's just that it's less about TNO's build and more about your crew composition.

For example, the basic problem of your bog standard party-sorcerer is that, despite those endgame spells being ultra fancy and taking several hours in real time to cast, the damage they do is pretty shit and you run out of casts fast. So, when you suddenly get left solo, stuff goes quite bad for you. Likewise, while there are some curious items to find in Sigil sewers and while there's the highest tier of the modron maze to complete, the combat in there goes rather badly because, essentially, everyone is underleveled and there are no good force multipliers.

However, if you choose to go solo or with just one companion, the situation changes. A lot. Solo rogue insta-backstabs those pesky sewer lampreys, one after another. The process can be accelerated if you sport rogue + Annah duo. Solo mage deals with the whole packs of them via force missiles (which, at the high levels, become ludicrously good - best spell in the game). Regardless of the class, a high-Con TNO can do a pain reflection combo with Dak'kon (which is provided by one of his zerthimon spells, IIRC). And that's only the stuff I've tried out - I'm pretty sure that high level Ignus is a beast (I can't stand his guts, though, so I hadn't experimented with him much).

Another benefit of these solo/duo playthroughs is that you level up much faster (especially as a rogue) so you have more skillpoints so you have more solutions to everything. There's also a very solid Wis/Cha social buildup for the rogue (as Int is a waste for him). You can go through the game without int and without missing that much.

Anyways, the combat system of PST is rather solid. It's just that the fights are rather badly designed and, well, there's no real reason to fight.

 

[l3loodAngel]

PS:T is a storyfag game, because you have to be a storyfag to enjoy it, because the rest of it is shit. No one will like it for its combat or systems.

But the combat system itself is solid DnD. And even then the problems do not distract player from the game and builds do matter.

Solid D&D? If it was, it would be turn based, like ToEE. Even Conquistador's combat is more "solid D&D" than Torment.

Builds don't matter in Torment, except for the fact that if you didn't pump Int/Wis, you're stupid in every sense. So "combat build" is just something that hampers you if you didn't pick a caster, it matters in the worst way. Plus, who cares about your build? Companions can handle it. Combat is just an annoyance, no matter how you resolve it. If you choose spells, you get cool special effects limited by rest mechanics, that's it for combat. And have you tried multiclassing? Ehhh, switch to a mage, and you can't use anything but a dagger even if you have 10 lvls in fighter and all them proficiencies, and can't stealth even if you have leveled high stealth / backstab skills. This is not solid D&D. Hell, D&D itself isn't really solid, but that's another discussion.

I am tired of this TB fapping. It doesn't make you ir makes you

.

Builds do matter because you get a totaly fuckign different experience by playing with different builds (You know fucking C&C, you choose the build and live with consequences. Are they balanced? -No, but at least they are interesting.). It's still far off from the prime example FO2 in a sense of different experience. Now what you are describing as ability to solely use only dagger is more of balancing issue or a bug, that's not multiclassing working properly. That's another bug/design flop what you are referring as a lack of stealth, but I still haven't played an RPG being built to facilitate stealth. You don't seem to distinguish bugs/broken things from what is the system.
Every time I hear DnD bashing I want to puke, not because it is a masterpiece, but because it is masterpiece compared to what's being offered on the market.

Let me illustrate with FO2.
Your experience varies significantly if you choose to play melee/sniper/big guns (though melee is always neglected weapon wise, perk wise and lack serious stealth play as in most games. But is viable and interesting nonetheless) and smart/stupid character options. What you get is an essentially different games and that's what makes it great.

 

[Fenix]

There are tons of people in the forums with good advices for devs creating combat system/encounters/balancing, but it's like they skip the information

Maybe they fear to lost control? If you have no strong image or sense of what you want to do, advices can confuse you.

 

[l3loodAngel]

There are tons of people in the forums with good advices for devs creating combat system/encounters/balancing, but it's like they skip the information

Maybe they fear to lost control? If you have no strong image or sense of what you want to do, advices can confuse you.

I have no clue. Most of the things that come to bite them in the ass after the games get realeased, have been disussed in the forums to death. They treat smarter individuals as a vocal minority and then C&C kicks their teeth out.

 

[Fenix]

Or maybe it is good old arrogance and pride. You know - oldest companions.

 

[Lurker King]

Post-KS Codex: cares about sales as an indicator that your enemies are being ruined

Fixed.

That's why I said before that expecting good game from big company is an extreme degree of idiocy. Only small, I think 10 people at max, teams can deliever something good. Bigger teams burning out money too fast, interaction inside is too slow, bureaucracy increasing etc.

You mean, today with the degree of funding and the lack of talent available the best teams are small ones. FO and PS:T's teams had more than 10 people, but they also had more money and knowledge.

There are tons of people in the forums with good advices for devs creating combat system/encounters/balancing, but it's like they skip the information

Maybe they fear to lost control? If you have no strong image or sense of what you want to do, advices can confuse you.

That's partly arrogance and partly incompetence. It's partly arrogance because these developers don't really take feedback seriously. It's partly incompetence because none of these guys are known for developing marvelous combat systems in the past. These are complex abstract systems. Either you know how to do it or you don't. It's not enough that you explain to them how things would be better, because they will need formulas to write it down and a bunch of variables to consider. It's complicated. Someone who is used to these kind of discussions will manage to implement. Someone who is not, can't do nothing about it.

It might end up weirdly, with many in the Bioware crowd dropping the pretense that they like sophisticated "litterature", and embracing their popamole romance-loving asses for what they are.

You are overthinking, idealizing things and projecting your own preferences on popamole players. Do you really think that the millions who buy Bioware games every year care about romances? Maybe the most rabid biowaste fans, but must people play these games for the same reason they play other popamole games: to kill some things and have some entertainment. Most of these people don’t give a fuck about "narrative contextualization", whatever the hell that vague term means. ME is a glorified shooter with cosmetic choices. Maybe Bioware developers are frustrated artists that try to fulfill their love for narrative with cosmetic choices, but that’s not what is keeping them in business. What players want is really simple: good graphics, a giant map to explore and things to kill. If TW3 were a smaller game with more "narrative contextualization", it would sell like shit.

 

[Apexeon]

11 people companies are looking around now... trying to figure out who to fire

Approximately.
I think optimal number something between 7 and 6.

Yes this is the optimal control span, if you have 6 dedicated workers and 1 capable leader. Polish control span is 3 (1 leader and 2 workers). The catholic church is 1 and the one is GOD. And turkisch control span has been never figured out.

You can never trust a horse, a woman or the turkisch.

 

[Florian Gheorghe]

Just reached The Bloom and until now I thought it was outstanding, it's still is but why the hell

Spoiler

do I need to know that Tybir is gay? Seriously! I ditch that annoying kid for a gay. Even Wasteland 2 had this, but I don't remember PS:T to have them.

Other then that, great game so far.

 

[Florian Gheorghe]

"I know I can speak for the whole team when I express my gratitude. We've poured a lot of effort into this game (please note the small 'e', though I did have to make quite a few Effort checks during development), and I'm delighted that it didn't go to waste. I really appreciate the kind words and your enthusiasm, and I hope that we can make this kind of game for you for many years to come."

This is from Collin. So can we assume that this is only a minor part of a much bigger role? Maybe we can expect them to do more of TTON?

I sure do hope they will release an improved version with more content.

 

[J_C]

"I know I can speak for the whole team when I express my gratitude. We've poured a lot of effort into this game (please note the small 'e', though I did have to make quite a few Effort checks during development), and I'm delighted that it didn't go to waste. I really appreciate the kind words and your enthusiasm, and I hope that we can make this kind of game for you for many years to come."

This is from Collin. So can we assume that this is only a minor part of a much bigger role? Maybe we can expect them to do more of TTON?

I sure do hope they will release an improved version with more content.

If they keep their habit, they will release a director's cut or ehanced edition like with Wasteland 2.

 

[Malpercio]

PS:T is a storyfag game, because you have to be a storyfag to enjoy it, because the rest of it is shit. No one will like it for its combat or systems.

But why the fuck you even play it for the combat system to being with. Even most of the in-game systems are tailored toward the dialogs/story.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Right now it looks like it might not make profit until it starts being offered at a discount, so I wouldn't hold my breath for a Director's Cut. Besides, if they get into a habit of making enhanced editions year after release, nobody is going to buy anything at launch anymore. I'm sure there's already people waiting to buy just because they drop some vague hints that there might be enhanced edition.

 

[Roguey]

Torment itself flopped financially on release iirc

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...to-the-new-thread.75947/page-657#post-2643087

 

[Ismaul]

Anyways, the combat system of PST is rather solid. It's just that the fights are rather badly designed and, well, there's no real reason to fight.

If the combat is shit, would you say the combat system is solid? It makes any combat build choices pretty pointless.

Also it's RTwP, when the system itself is designed for turn based, so what you get is a clusterfuck.

And sure, you can say, things change if you play solo or 2-man party, but who wants to play Torment without companions, when it's one of the strengths of the game? And with companions you get all classes, so your own build choices don't matter much.

 

[Ismaul]

I am tired of this TB fapping.

D&D was made for turn based. This is not TB fapping, it's just not considering a RTwP rendition "solid D&D".

Builds do matter because you get a totaly fuckign different experience

No, because companions give you all those experiences anyways.

Now what you are describing as ability to solely use only dagger is more of balancing issue or a bug, that's not multiclassing working properly.

It was designed like that on purpose for the game. Not a bug, just shit system design or incompetence to implement multiclassing.

Every time I hear DnD bashing I want to puke, not because it is a masterpiece, but because it is masterpiece compared to what's being offered on the market.

I have ran PnP campaigns for the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th editions of D&D. I am well aware of its strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

I sure do hope they will release an improved version with more content.

With WL2 there was also the prospect of tapping into the console market to drive development of the DC, this time that's already done. I'm sure the likes of Colin would want to add back some of the cut content but that'll obviously depend on how the game sells. Wouldn't bet on much beyond a few standard patches right now.