Game News Torment: Tides of Numenera Released

[Ruzen]

In case someone missed It

Spoiler

 

[Jarpie]

In case someone missed It

Spoiler

Well, they did put quote-marks around stronghold, so they can say they didnt really mean stronghold :D

 

[Roguey]

I kinda wonder how many people really know what Planescape Torment is. Really, Baldur's Gate is widely known even to those who are not hardcore cRPG fans, but PST is a cult classic for a reason, it has a smaller audience and it wasn't as successful as BG. And if we assume that the biggest fans already backed it during the KS, you may have your reason why isn't this more successful.

For one, anyone who expected T:TON to get close to sales of other Kickstarter heavy-hitters, is completely deluded. It's a niche game within a niche genre, a sequel to the classic that everybody loves but few people ever actually played. It was never going to be a massive commercial success even by indie standards.

Planescape Torment sold more than Fallout and Fallout 2.

Tides of Numenera selling as much as/more than Pillars was a pipe dream, but less than Wasteland 2? Less than Tyranny which was a) weirder than your average fantasy RPG b) an original, unproven concept c) advertised as being short in length and focused far more on narrative?

Re:numbers. Keep in mind this is the middle of the week. A lot of people are still working.

Sunday will be Peak Players Day, yes.

looking forward to the "russian hackers from rpgcodex are raiding our reviews" posts

 

[skyst]

They really need to account for the shit in the kickstarter that didn't wind up in the game. I don't closely follow kickstarter campaigns once I pledge (I just don't care that much) or the development progress of a game, but I find it really surprising that the absence of so many features weren't really talked about afaik until so close to release. The game isn't a failure for lacking them, I'm enjoying the game for what it is and don't consider the purchase a waste, but it's not the game that I expected hoped for. It really makes you wonder what happened to all the time and money that went into making it; it all seems pretty fishy.

I know it gets shit on here, and comes from a different studio, but Tyranny was made really quick and, from what I gather, by the Obsidian b-team for relatively little money. I can't help but assume Tyranny would have been worlds better than TToN if given the same resources.

One interesting aspect of TToN that I haven't seen mentioned much is how the ruleset of Numenera suits this type of game. I have played for about 20 hours so far and faced 2 combats (3 if you count the shit with the sorrow in the intro). That leaves a lot of time exploring the world and, really, in dialogues. There was a thread on here a while back about how to make RPG dialogues more interactive. I like how the ruleset enforces limited resources used up during dialogues or other actions that take place within the dialogue screens (fighting Ryu, for example). This, saddled with the expense of resting at the inn and timed quests has me using consumables and pushing further and further through dialogues and the like without resting as much as possible - as opposed to the same behavior but within combat scenarios. The execution is kind of rough here, but it's a new idea (to me) and something that I could see work in RPGs going forward. Instead of just having 20 charisma and winning every dialogue.

 

[Lurker King]

That leaves a lot of time exploring the world and, really, in dialogues. There was a thread on here a while back about how to make RPG dialogues more interactive. I like how the ruleset enforces limited resources used up during dialogues or other actions that take place within the dialogue screens.

I also liked the fact that you can make bad choices in dialogues. It makes things more active, increases player's agency, makes you think.

Can't wait for the Codex review. Darth Roxor please.

Fixed.

Tides of Numenera selling as much as/more than Pillars was a pipe dream, but less than Wasteland 2?

People believing that everyone would buy this game are similar to liberals thinking that everyone would vote in Hilary. You are living in a bubble of like-minded people. Wake up.

 

[Darkzone]

In case someone missed It

Spoiler

You can score out much more. Beginning from 2 million:
Did Colin play Planescape Torment and provide commentary in an video?
What ever did Mitsoda contribute towards T:ToN (not that it was missed) i have seen him nowhere on the meetings pictures.
Which companion was made by Pat Rothfuss.
Where is the codex?

 

[Infinitron]

Did Colin play Planescape Torment and provide commentary in an video?

Which companion was made by Pat Rothfuss.

 

[Darkzone]

Did Colin play Planescape Torment and provide commentary in an video?

Spoiler

Which companion was made by Pat Rothfuss.

Ok you got me there. I had old info. Video was released on 24.2.2017 so yes i missed it, because of a birthday. Thank you for the update.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

looking forward to the "russian hackers from rpgcodex are raiding our reviews" posts

Ought to be potato hackers, considering Codex demographics.

 

[Sprout]

It really makes you wonder what happened to all the time and money that went into making it; it all seems pretty fishy.

Turns out that game development is actually really fricking expensive. No really, we're not talking about a small team of indies living on noodles, but a black hole sucking in money instead of space. You think the kickstarter funds are the actual real budget for these games? It's that + then some from other sources. If someone wants to accuse them of incompetence and squandering the budget, that I can understand, but people speculating that the money must've gone somewhere else, since video games can't possibly cost this much leaves me perpetually mystified.

 

[Lurker King]

but people speculating that the money must've gone somewhere else, since video games can't possibly cost this much leaves me perpetually mystified.

Yes, but while five million is not a fortune for games of this caliber, inXile does seem to have problems dealing with money. In W2, you have repeated portraits and shitty graphics, while in ToN you have good graphics and no portraits. You would have thought that they would have money to pay artists to make some NPC portraits, but apparently not. I also think that everyone is realizing by now that these multiple projects on kickstarter seem as desperate attempt to receive more money. It doesn’t inspire any confidence at all.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

My theory is that they changed direction after beta feedback. You don't gut the game 3 years into development unless it turns out that whatever you have made just isn't working in practice as good as it seemed on paper. So with the redesign the work got delayed and they had to cut bunch of shit to get it out of the door before 2020. Remember the same thing happened with WL2, Fargo ended up fronting his own money in order to get the game finished. And the guy is loaded, but he's not Bill Gates loaded, so they had to be desperate for resources.

 

[Apexeon]

but people speculating that the money must've gone somewhere else, since video games can't possibly cost this much leaves me perpetually mystified.

Yes, but while five million is not a fortune for games of this caliber, inXile does seem to have problems dealing with money. In W2, you have repeated portraits and shitty graphics, while in ToN you have good graphics and no portraits. You would have thought that they would have money to pay artists to make some NPC portraits, but apparently not. I also think that everyone is realizing by now that these multiple projects on kickstarter seem as desperate attempt to receive more money. It doesn’t inspire any confidence at all.

Portraits are cheap. You can outsource to Asia and have some awesome ones done.

 

[Sensuki]

There were a few of us that wrote negative steam reviews after the interview cancellation :australia:

 

[Lurker King]

Portraits are cheap. You can outsource to Asia and have some awesome ones done.

So blow and whores then. M'kay.

 

[Jezal_k23]

As of right now, #13 global top seller... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

 

[vivec]

But gotta give it to the game. It did some things really well.

Take Rhin for example: You carry her with you thinking what an utter waste of space. Only to be rewarded with a God of little things. Which are actually quite big things, it turns out.

 

[Tigranes]

Post-KS Codex: cares about sales as a marker of quality

I thought the whole point was the unwashed masses don't know a good game if it's smashing their balls with a paraquet

 

[Excidium II]

Post-KS Codex: cares about sales as a marker of quality

I thought the whole point was the unwashed masses don't know a good game if it's smashing their balls with a paraquet

Just hoping it is punished with bad sales

 

[Fenix]

Turns out that game development is actually really fricking expensive. No really, we're not talking about a small team of indies living on noodles, but a black hole sucking in money instead of space. You think the kickstarter funds are the actual real budget for these games? It's that + then some from other sources. If someone wants to accuse them of incompetence and squandering the budget, that I can understand, but people speculating that the money must've gone somewhere else, since video games can't possibly cost this much leaves me perpetually mystified.

That's why I said before that expecting good game from big company is an extreme degree of idiocy.
Only small, I think 10 people at max, teams can deliever something good.
Bigger teams burning out money too fast, interaction inside is too slow, bureaucracy increasing etc.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[MRY]

This is both sad and funny.

As Tolstoy said, All good Steam reviews are alike.

 

[Haba]

Post-KS Codex: cares about sales as a marker of quality

I thought the whole point was the unwashed masses don't know a good game if it's smashing their balls with a paraquet

As a marker of SUCCESS. We've gone through decades of liking games that fail financially, we already know that our opinion does not matter.

At this point, new RPG releases are just CYOA sequences. We've watched inXile make their choices, now we are just waiting for the ending slides.

 

[Ismaul]

and the extremely successful mass effect series is what if not for storyfags

Do you have walls of text? Nope. You have romances and awesum exploration!

You guys have a different definition of storyfags, and there might be effectively multiple types. The Witcher 3 and Age of Decadence were storyfag games. Did they have walls of text? No. What all storyfag have in common, I think, is a desire for a (good) story reason to do what they do in the game. They want their actions to have narrative contextualisation, in game, not just LARPed. That's what I want as a storyfag anyways, not walls of text. That is, unless the walls are very engaging. And then I'd rather the writers learned to say more with less, like in AoD. If I wanted real walls, I'd be reading a book.

So I think Torment fails for many storyfags, because, sure you've got that narrative contextualisation, that sense of purpose while playing the game, but since the walls are lore-and-description-dumpy, many are going to be put off. I want context for the gameplay, not just context on top of context, story dumps without actual narrative purpose.

Sure, you've got that weird segment of rolelarpers / cosplayers, that want kitsch romances, want to hear that whole lore-dump background of companions, that might love Numenera's approach. It's the Bioware crowd, the ones that loved hearing Leiliana's quirky story (oh god killl me) in Dragon Age, the inclusive SJW type. But I'm not sure they're the reading crowd, even if the writing is right up their alley, and even if there was as "little" writing as in AoD. So it might even fail for them, or at least, for many of them.

It might end up weirdly, with many in the Bioware crowd dropping the pretense that they like sophisticated "litterature", and embracing their popamole romance-loving asses for what they are.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

and the extremely successful mass effect series is what if not for storyfags

Do you have walls of text? Nope. You have romances and awesum exploration!

You guys have a different definition of storyfags, and there might be effectively multiple types. The Witcher 3 and Age of Decadence were storyfag games. Did they have walls of text? No. What all storyfag have in common, I think, is a desire for a (good) story reason to do what they do in the game. They want their actions to have narrative contextualisation, in game, not just LARPed. That's what I want as a storyfag anyways, not walls of text. That is, unless the walls are very engaging. And then I'd rather the writers learned to say more with less, like in AoD. If I wanted real walls, I'd be reading a book.

So I think Torment fails for many storyfags, because, sure you've got that narrative contextualisation, that sense of purpose while playing the game, but since the walls are lore-and-description-dumpy, many are going to be put off. I want context for the gameplay, not just context on top of context, story dumps without actual narrative purpose.

Sure, you've got that weird segment of rolelarpers / cosplayers, that want kitsch romances, want to hear that whole lore-dump background of companions, that might love Numenera's approach. It's the Bioware crowd, the ones that loved hearing Leiliana's quirky story (oh god killl me) in Dragon Age, the inclusive SJW type. But I'm not sure they're the reading crowd, even if the writing is right up their alley, and even if there was as "little" writing as in AoD. So it might even fail for them, or at least, for many of them.

It might end up weirdly, with many in the Bioware crowd dropping the pretense that they like sophisticated "litterature", and embracing their popamole romance-loving asses for what they are.

On the other hand your definition of a storyfag is not broad enough. It isn't enough to demand a narrative, it's the part where the need for a narrative/story becomes a detriment to player that really puts the fag in storyfag. In my perspective, AoD is not a storyfag game, because the game offers choice, both consciously made in dialog, and inherently made in building the character, which can offer perceptible and significant difference to your playthroughs, loremaster vs merc run vs thief for instance. All very different ways of playing the game. Witcher probably counts as a storyfag game, though it does offer perceptible, if not significant changes, some of which can lock you out of some content, etc. It does offer you bad outcomes, which can be prevented if the player does things right, so it's not half as bad as more storyfaggy games.
Mass Effect though-
I only played the first one, so- no matter how you do the missions, and in what order, the villain is always depicted as ahead of you. Nothing you do changes that much. Another example is probably that Kai Leng crap I hear about, where you can thoroughly kick his mongoloid ass but the game still acts like he's some über weeaboo ninja, and how beating him is teh hard. This sort of utter disregard of outcomes, and the bits where your choices don't really matter diddly squat, is what makes Mass Effect a prime culprit in the rise of storyfaggotry.
For more details, refer to Sheep and his thread in prosperland.