Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Pre-Release Thread [ALPHA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[GueulEclator]

What a shitload of fallacies. This reminds me of Mein Kampf : A diarea of sentence with no coherence whatsoever and totally missing the point.
I think your example of dune showed you misunderstood me : no actual science fiction setting really follows their logic, because they would end up being what I described : a nice clusterfest of screwed realities. The author of the setting did said that the sience has got to a point where reality itself is screwed, so nano-robots shits dont follow the laws of physics, and even if they did, have you ever heard of the scientific prediction for just the near future? It's already fucked up just in 30 years, what should we expect in 1M year?
What I strongly condemn is the tendency of science fiction work of not following their own logic at all : when you foil the plan of a being that had access to mind altering/reality screwing technology, that is retarded.
You still keep saying I pull these stuff right out of my ass, fine. Prove it. Because they sound perfectly rational, and are the logical turn of technology. 1 Million year level Genome + robotic = trans-human technology, human becomes a backward biological being, everything is replaced by trans-human being that I don't have the pretension to understand (since they would be far above our current level).
And These illogical plot/setting end up being non authentic, not credible and feel completely cheap because everything is made of plot twist and direct author influence instead of a story that flows logically. Minimal conveniently limited devices, conveniently placed stuff, conveniently usable/unusable stuff, Minimal conveniently anything is required in believable/interesting plot.

I would have loved to keep it civil, but it seems that you felt the need to insult. I don't think you have trouble managing your anger. More like you just don't have the brain to engage in a discussion involving complex concepts that take time to muster and fully grasp. You then thought spamming insults would make it look like you're more right then me, because you use fancy derogatory terms. Acting all while not having anything to back this attitude (like absolute proofs...) . Typical forums tactic.

 

[Infinitron]

Never has this emoticon been more appropriate:

 

[Minttunator]

It's great that it's a new story - I was afraid they'd try to milk TNO and make a direct sequel somehow. In fact, it seems more like a 'spiritual sequel' than anything else, given that there will be a new setting, new characters and new mechanics.

I'm a bit worried about the setting, i.e. I don't know much about it and I'm not sure if it can be as interesting as Plancescape. I understand that getting the Planescape license is near impossible, though, so we'll just have to hope for the best. Who knows, maybe it'll be great - and a Torment-like game in a new setting is definitely better than no such game at all.

 

[Brother None]

In this thread people hold an indepth discussion about Torment successor's plot without knowing anything about it. I like all the assumptions though. I mean, if you think high-tech scifi settings are inherently screwed then sure, this is not for you, move along. Other assumptions, though, such as it having nihilistic themes or disregarding soul concepts entirely are just that, assumptions. Even you playing a "normal human" is just an assumption. But hey, assume away, what's the harm?

Doesn't matter. The game will heavily adopt rules as suitable while the designs are part of Numenera's iterative process. I think Numenera will be out first but it doesn't really matter, since the game's ruleset will be designed specifically for a computer RPG alongside the p&p rules, rather than purely FROM the p&p rules, if that makes sense.

Interesting. Does this mean that Numenera will have a formally defined set of cRPG rules to go alongside the p&p ones, rather than the usual half-arsed conversions? If so, I could see such a ruleset being something valuable in its own right for other games.

I wouldn't put it quite like that, they'll both come from the same core concept and have similar mechanics, D20-based etc. But it's not like having a complete system, licensing it and having to stick close to its p&p interpretation for this cRPG, it is indeed more like developing them alongside and adapting them very consciously and separately to computer RPGs. A superior approach, I feel, a lot of p&p system adaptations have been poor as hell.

 

[hiver]

GueulEclator

Im not insulting you just for fun. Im calling you what you are, you shitfaced turdbrain.
You came here claiming that you know exactly how these concepts will play out, how they behave in the setting and how its all bad and nonsensical (haha thats relly ironic) - which hasn't even been developed fully or atleast those details haven't been posted anywhere so far - and you cannot actually prove any of your assumptions except repeating - "well it must be so, surely" because youre a goddamn idiot who apparently cannot understand that your bloody stupid assumptions based on ass effect of all things - are not proof of anything but of your own stupidity.
Now fuck off.

Minttunator

Setting is actually quite good, as a concept. There is a short story available on the site of numenera.
http://www.numenera.com/the-amber-monolith/
Its just a few chapters about an...explorer who is trying to go into a floating monolith in order to discover some tech current humans forgot to make after the apocalypse. And to gather some knowledge that might help him and others.
He is accompanied by some sort of mutated hybrid animal, his pet.
Which dies when a sudden short "sand storm" blows over them - which is actually a cloud of nano machines, while he manages to protect himself with a small item that can create a bubble force field of short duration.
He only knows where to press the item and when - but doesnt really understand how the thing works.

And later lifts up and floats to the monolith on a antigrav belt he knows how to use but doesnt really understand.

Its pretty much the same as if it was a fantasy setting and he found a magical artifact that produces a certain kind of effect when you press it in certain place.
You can use it - even if you dont understand it.

There is some sort of global dataweb still around which is similarly mysterious and some sort of advanced entities or AIs high in orbit around this desolated chaotic world.
That apparently dont give a rats ass about humans, their prayers or the world.

The advanced tech is splintered, chaotic, dangerous and strewn all over. There are lands where humans live - and more dangerous areas.
As an idea... it sounds pretty good to me.


- ALSO - nothing is ever said about there being no soul or importance of soul or that individual humans are pointless.
I know it may be hard to imagine someone would just invent that and then present it as a definite truth - but thats what actually happened here.

 

[GueulEclator]

The lost soul above me :

Once again, you're missing the point totally. I never said I knew what said they were going to throw at us. I just said that whatever sicence fiction RPG/adventures do, they are fucking illogic, because normally, the technology will always reach a step that is trans-human. That's quite logical, and I can't see how one can be back warded to the point of not understanding that for example : genome + robots make humanity completely disapear and introduce a new kind of dynamics to the world. Or that telepathy + virtual reality is a mess because once someone has acess to everybody's brain like if they were computer, you open the door to more than just a dystopian future. Not to mention that humanity all connected together at all times changes the dynamic to a point that no one could possibly grasp. Same goes for altering reality...

Now that's just science fiction in general, that's what should happen if they really were logical. Instead, you all have the technology to do all that I described, but it's only done to a small extend (proving it can be done) but we are then told that in centuries it has never been fully exploited. Which is just silly.

I do expect however, that your character will be moved around like a puppet by all those beings in possession of reality altering powers/swams of nanorobots/FTL technology... Yet you will still be able to have an influence on the outcome of everything, while you are completely outmatched by all the powers surrounding you.
UNLESS you are yourself one of these almost omniscient beings. Which would be a bit difficult to pull out in a rpg : this would end up being like Black and White, Godus or soomething.

What kills the credibility, in any science fiction, is that you see all the potentials device/powers/stuff capable of screwing you from the beginning not used to their full logical extend. For example, one guy sending you telepathic message from his anti-gravity-flying-fortress, creating entire illusion, shows off the kind of power that could control your very personality from the safe distance of his room, YET doesn't use that from the very beginning and end up being killed by a pathetic gun (I've seen this already in too many ''good'' science fiction).
And the authors told us that The new setting is full of the potential devices/powers/stuff.

 

[Kem0sabe]

The lost soul above me :

Once again, you're missing the point totally. I never said I knew what said they were going to throw at us. I just said that whatever science fiction RPG/adventures do, they are fucking illogic, because normally, the technology will always reach a step that is trans-human. That's quite logical, and I can't see how one can be back warded to the point of not understanding that for example : genome + robots make humanity completely disappear and introduce a new kind of dynamics to the world. Or that telepathy + virtual reality is a mess because once someone has access to everybody's brain like if they were computer, you open the door to more than just a dystopian future. Not to mention that humanity all connected together at all times changes the dynamic to a point that no one could possibly grasp. Same goes for altering reality...

Now that's just science fiction in general, that's what should happen if they really were logical. Instead, you all have the technology to do all that I described, but it's only done to a small extend (proving it can be done) but we are then told that in centuries it has never been fully exploited. Which is just silly.

I do expect however, that your character will be moved around like a puppet by all those beings in possession of reality altering powers/swarms of nanorobots/FTL technology... Yet you will still be able to have an influence on the outcome of everything, while you are completely outmatched by all the powers surrounding you.
UNLESS you are yourself one of these almost omniscient beings. Which would be a bit difficult to pull out in a rpg : this would end up being like Black and White, Godus or something.

What kills the credibility, in any science fiction, is that you see all the potentials device/powers/stuff capable of screwing you from the beginning not used to their full logical extend. For example, one guy sending you telepathic message from his anti-gravity-flying-fortress, creating entire illusion, shows off the kind of power that could control your very personality from the safe distance of his room, YET doesn't use that from the very beginning and end up being killed by a pathetic gun (I've seen this already in too many ''good'' science fiction).
And the authors told us that The new setting is full of the potential devices/powers/stuff.

But can the player character truly understand the motivation behind such powerful enteties? What if their death, prey to a simple handgun, is part of some grand design of it´s own or even influenced by the action of some even more powerful entities?

I think the beauty of these types of high concept settings is that the various players in the universe, no matter how powerful, are always subject to being pawns themselves, and no one ever has the full knowledge of what is happening around them.

I think low fantasy is much more simple to understand and identify with due to the relatively simpler motivations behind the forces at play.

 

[GueulEclator]

And that's why it's ridiculous. If everything is just a convoluted illusion, nothing makes sense. When your soul is a fabric by another entities, and you aren't even conscious, then that sucks. There is nothing beautiful in being the equivalent of a lifeless hardware moved around by the ever powerful entities and their impossible to grasp plan. Everything is just an illusion of an illusion of an illusion of an illusion mixed with more illusion from other beings, who themselves are subject to more illusion. That's called a dumb clusterfuck.
There is simply no incentive to be interested by a plot that Doesn't make sense and is just about random stuff happening because the author says so. Everybody can make such a plot, since everything is just random stuff happening with no reason or coherence behind it.

Ever heard of the word plot hole? What you described would be a litteral Plot Hole Gruyere.
And in my book, Plot Holes are synonym with bad writing/story.

There are reason why George R.R Martin and others takes years to write a story : because they try to create a coherent plot, with believable Twist, and logical continuity in an authentic setting. Continuity is the word here. That is what differentiate the good writer from the bad one. It's fairly difficult to come up with an interesting setting and character design, then make a complex plot with continuity. With all the threads that tie together which then leads to the inevitable conclusion (or at least an open ending).

 

[Kem0sabe]

And that's why it's ridiculous. If everything is just a convoluted illusion, nothing makes sense. When your soul is a fabric by another entities, and you aren't even conscious, then that sucks. There is nothing beautiful in being the equivalent of a lifeless hardware moved around by the ever powerful entities and their impossible to grasp plan. Everything is just an illusion of an illusion of an illusion of an illusion mixed with more illusion from other beings, who themselves are subject to more illusion. That's called a dumb clusterfuck.
There is simply no incentive to be interested by a plot that Doesn't make sense and is just about random stuff happening because the author says so. Everybody can make such a plot, since everything is just random stuff happening with no reason or coherence behind it.

Ever heard of the word plot hole? What you described would be a litteral Plot Hole Gruyere.
And in my book, Plot Holes are synonym with bad writing/story.

There are reason why George R.R Martin and others takes years to write a story : because they try to create a coherent plot, with believable Twist, and logical continuity in an authentic setting. Continuity is the word here. That is what differentiate the good writer from the bad one. It's fairly difficult to come up with an interesting setting and character design, then make a complex plot with continuity. With all the threads that tie together which then leads to the inevitable conclusion (or at least an open ending).

I was referring to the setting itself, one where technology is indistinguishable from magic and beings of incredible power and unknowable motivations dick around with the common "man".

I understand what your trying to say and it´s valid, but how those points are addressed in such a universe is what makes the journey exciting to me and one of the reasons i love epic scifi and fantasy book series. Plot points that leave you angry, dumbstruck, thinking "WTF?" but that later develop into grand concepts that make sense within the universe.

As you say, it´s all down to the quality of writing, and i think that this is what will make or break this Torment sequel, turning a world that doesn´t make much sense into a believable and relatable story as PS:T did.

 

[GueulEclator]

And that's why it's ridiculous. If everything is just a convoluted illusion, nothing makes sense. When your soul is a fabric by another entities, and you aren't even conscious, then that sucks. There is nothing beautiful in being the equivalent of a lifeless hardware moved around by the ever powerful entities and their impossible to grasp plan. Everything is just an illusion of an illusion of an illusion of an illusion mixed with more illusion from other beings, who themselves are subject to more illusion. That's called a dumb clusterfuck.
There is simply no incentive to be interested by a plot that Doesn't make sense and is just about random stuff happening because the author says so. Everybody can make such a plot, since everything is just random stuff happening with no reason or coherence behind it.

Ever heard of the word plot hole? What you described would be a litteral Plot Hole Gruyere.
And in my book, Plot Holes are synonym with bad writing/story.

There are reason why George R.R Martin and others takes years to write a story : because they try to create a coherent plot, with believable Twist, and logical continuity in an authentic setting. Continuity is the word here. That is what differentiate the good writer from the bad one. It's fairly difficult to come up with an interesting setting and character design, then make a complex plot with continuity. With all the threads that tie together which then leads to the inevitable conclusion (or at least an open ending).

I was referring to the setting itself, one where technology is indistinguishable from magic and beings of incredible power and unknowable motivations dick around with the common "man".

I understand what your trying to say and it´s valid, but how those points are addressed in such a universe is what makes the journey exciting to me and one of the reasons i love epic scifi and fantasy book series. Plot points that leave you angry, dumbstruck, thinking "WTF?" but that later develop into grand concepts that make sense within the universe.

As you say, it´s all down to the quality of writing, and i think that this is what will make or break this Torment sequel, turning a world that doesn´t make much sense into a believable and relatable story as PS:T did.

There is but one way to do that in a science fiction setting : protect the integrity of the mind : what you see is what's really happening, what you think is what you really think And AI technology was never pushed really far. Failure to do so will end up with you, as a non transcendent living being, being completely obsolete and nothing more than an unconscious tool. Which is basically a plot hole character in istelf.
So Yes, if they don't pull any mind manipulation technology, and instead focus on the strong individuality of the Soul, then YES I'm all for it.
If the soul is really that independent, magical thing, then yes, a human is not obsolete and can actually have an influence on the events. Else, nobody really exist, there is no world or universe to talk with and the illusion of the illusion of the illusion begins.

So no Uber-skynet AI and independent, inalterable soul = Decent Science fiction with no plot holes.

 

[Kem0sabe]

There is but one way to do that in a science fiction setting : protect the integrity of the mind : what you see is what's really happening, what you think is what you really think And AI technology was never pushed really far. Failure to do so will end up with you, as a non transcendent living being, being completely obsolete and nothing more than an unconscious tool. Which is basically a plot hole character in istelf.
So Yes, if they don't pull any mind manipulation technology, and instead focus on the strong individuality of the Soul, then YES I'm all for it.
If the soul is really that independent, magical thing, then yes, a human is not obsolete and can actually have an influence on the events. Else, nobody really exist, there is no world or universe to talk with and the illusion of the illusion of the illusion begins.

So no Uber-skynet AI and independent, inalterable soul = Decent Science fiction with no plot holes.

I agree, reality itself should not be up to discussion, that takes away from the coherence of the story and in a game format takes it into too much of a philosophical debate.

But the manipulation of the perception of motive and character is, for me, one of the pillars of a good story. Nothing gets the blood going and moves the story forward like straight up betrayal or the subtle machinations of a force in the shadows.

 

[GueulEclator]

There is but one way to do that in a science fiction setting : protect the integrity of the mind : what you see is what's really happening, what you think is what you really think And AI technology was never pushed really far. Failure to do so will end up with you, as a non transcendent living being, being completely obsolete and nothing more than an unconscious tool. Which is basically a plot hole character in istelf.
So Yes, if they don't pull any mind manipulation technology, and instead focus on the strong individuality of the Soul, then YES I'm all for it.
If the soul is really that independent, magical thing, then yes, a human is not obsolete and can actually have an influence on the events. Else, nobody really exist, there is no world or universe to talk with and the illusion of the illusion of the illusion begins.

So no Uber-skynet AI and independent, inalterable soul = Decent Science fiction with no plot holes.

I agree, reality itself should not be up to discussion, that takes away from the coherence of the story and in a game format takes it into too much of a philosophical debate.

But the manipulation of the perception of motive and character is, for me, one of the pillars of a good story. Nothing gets the blood going and moves the story forward like straight up betrayal or the subtle machinations of a force in the shadows.

What I meant by manipulation is that : when something has the power to simply reshape your own consciousness and soul, it makes you completely obsolete. Because you stop existing the very moment someone manipulate your soul, since you end up being an unconscious tool. The power of decision, crucial to RPG wouldn't even work since not only your body but also your mind is just a puppet (and you are probably not conscious either).

Manipulation is fine, as long as it's external, not internal.

 

[tuluse]

Well I guess the TNO didn't exist then, since Ravel manipulated his soul.

 

[GueulEclator]

Well I guess the TNO didn't exist then, since Ravel manipulated his soul.

No. Easy criticism is easy. Magic allows you to manipulate's one soul, except magic is limited. Magic does not need to be rational or anything, so you can clearly put illogical limitation on it.

In your example, Ravel only manipulated TNO to a small extend. If it really was able to manipulated his soul at will and to every extend, then That wouldn't make any sense. TNO would just be a wireless robot of Ravel, and the new central character would be ravel, who itself would be manipulated by another one, himself also manipulated by another one... And that would be stupid.
Magic is specific, it can only do specific effect, and the whole mecanism behind magic is always a mystery.

Technology is not mysterious, It's straightforward. Once you start making brain manipulation technology, you will end up (after hundred's of year) having the power to manipulate's everyone's brain in an instant. Causing everyone's individuality to die at once.
And to quote the other of this new setting :

In Numenera, you could conceivably use technology or even telepathy to access the memories (and even personality) stored in the brain of a dead person. You could have biological or technological means to animate a corpse, and even give it some kind of drive or will, accessing those prior memories and personality.

That Means brain technology all the way, telepathic manipulation, no individuality, obsolete human... When an AI does a better job than you, and can telepathically control you, then the plot suddenly takes what once can call a bad twist. It would be the equivalent of reading a story about a bunch of ants : fun the first time, already repetitive the second time.

 

[tuluse]

I get it. You don't understand how fiction works, you have never read good science fiction (I suggest Neuromancer), and you think magic is somehow more limited than science when magic is quite literally whatever someone can imagine.

 

[Kirtai]

In this thread people hold an indepth discussion about Torment successor's plot without knowing anything about it. I like all the assumptions though. I mean, if you think high-tech scifi settings are inherently screwed then sure, this is not for you, move along. Other assumptions, though, such as it having nihilistic themes or disregarding soul concepts entirely are just that, assumptions. Even you playing a "normal human" is just an assumption. But hey, assume away, what's the harm?

I'm looking forward to seeing how the setting handles having transapient and independent human-equivalent intelligences (i.e. the players) in the same setting. Assuming that transapients exist there of course.
BTW, I'd expect that humans as we understand humans would be extinct by then, especially given thing like the nanite storm mentioned in the short story. Imagine that thing being controlled with deliberate intent as a weapon, how would anything without equivalent power survive?

I wouldn't put it quite like that, they'll both come from the same core concept and have similar mechanics, D20-based etc. But it's not like having a complete system, licensing it and having to stick close to its p&p interpretation for this cRPG, it is indeed more like developing them alongside and adapting them very consciously and separately to computer RPGs. A superior approach, I feel, a lot of p&p system adaptations have been poor as hell.

Good to hear, I was worried it would be yet another p&p adaptation that played to the weaknesses of computers rather than the strengths.

 

[hiver]

jesus f`ing schummaher on crutches... what a retard....

 

[Kirtai]

I get it. You don't understand how fiction works, you have never read good science fiction (I suggest Neuromancer), and you think magic is somehow more limited than science when magic is quite literally whatever someone can imagine.

Neuromancer isn't nearly advanced enough. To me, the setting sounds more like something from "A Fire Upon the Deep" where you have entities that can outsmart humans the humans outsmart ants and talking to them is called "Applied Theology". How do you deal with an entity with a mind so powerful that its thoughts about you are equivalent to you?

 

[GueulEclator]

I get it. You don't understand how fiction works, you have never read good science fiction (I suggest Neuromancer), and you think magic is somehow more limited than science when magic is quite literally whatever someone can imagine.

I've red neuromencer -_-

And you seem to be narrow minded. Your pseudo simple criticism hides the fallacy behind your claim. First magic is limited : it's limited by a mysterious force that is ungraspable. That is the point of magic. That is why magic isn't just simply considered to be another law of physics in the fantasy universe.
Technology is limitless : the more you understand the universe, the more you can do. And I sincerely find it pretty funny that in the 21th century, there are still dumbass that think the contrary. And fortunately I've never seen a science fiction serie, including numenera, that doesn't feature some bit of what I call limitless technology.
When One has to potential to control another person's mind entirely, reading his memory, modifying his thoughts, and then use a wireless technology to control an entire planet, you can say that it's pretty close to unlimited technology. When once can modify it's own sun, so that it doesn't destroy the earth after a billion year, that is pretty limitless. When One has undersood how the very fabric of reality works, he can proceed to reshape the entire universe, yes.
And guess what? All these are features of numenera : mind control, wireless mind reading/control, Uber AI that is 20 times better than human, altering the sun to protect the earth, FTL technology AND reality altering technology.
And of course, a shit tons of transcendent beings that should have made humanity obsolete from the very start of the story, because they have access to this technology, allowing a quasi-mathematical control of the universe.

jesus f`ing schummaher on crutches... what a retard....

It seems to be the only kind of post you can write. 4529 post of pure garbage.

 

[Kirtai]

BTW, please don't think I'm against Numenera, I actually like this kind of setting and am really looking forward to it. I'm just keenly aware that transhuman/posthuman settings are hideously difficult to make plausible, or even comprehensible, given the likely existence of literal deus ex machina.

 

[hiver]

Yes imbecile, everything that falls out of your stupid brain is immediately and irrevocably true.
Right on!

BTW, I'd expect that humans as we understand humans would be extinct by then, especially given thing like the nanite storm mentioned in the short story. Imagine that thing being controlled with deliberate intent as a weapon, how would anything without equivalent power survive?

Doesnt the short story give a fairly good answer to that?

Humans that still exist on this world obviously survive by finding old artifacts they can still use while not fully understanding them + such nanite storms are limited to some areas and limited in their capabilities - they can kill an organic being or a human but they cant damage or affect that monolith.
And quite possibly are governed by programs or orders or by themselves in a way where destroying everything isnt their purpose at all?

Same goes for distant superior intelligences and "entities" who for most dont give a rats ass about remnants of humanity.

Remember this is a post apocalyptic setting.

 

[GueulEclator]

BTW, please don't think I'm against Numenera, I actually like this kind of setting and am really looking forward to it. I'm just keenly aware that transhuman/posthuman settings are hideously difficult to make plausible, or even comprehensible, given the likely existence of literal deus ex machina.

Well yeah, litteral deus ex machina is the word. Glad to see some sense in this thread. I'm not totally against numenera either, but they must avoid transhuman/posthuman stuff as much as possible.

Yes imbecile, everything that falls out of your stupid brain is immediately and irrevocably true.
Right on!

BTW, I'd expect that humans as we understand humans would be extinct by then, especially given thing like the nanite storm mentioned in the short story. Imagine that thing being controlled with deliberate intent as a weapon, how would anything without equivalent power survive?

Doesnt the short story give a fairly good answer to that?

Humans that still exist on this world obviously survive by finding old artifacts they can still use while not fully understanding them + such nanite storms are limited to some areas and limited in their capabilities - they can kill an organic being or a human but they cant damage or affect that monolith.
And quite possibly are governed by programs or orders or by themselves in a way where destroying everything isnt their purpose at all?

Same goes for distant superior intelligences and "entities" who for most dont give a rats ass about remnants of humanity.

Remember this is a post apocalyptic setting.

No its doesn't. You only talked about the remnant of humanity, one of the weakest kind of sentient being in this whole setting. They are completely overwhelmed by all the forces surrounding them, forces that are possessed more often then not by entities with goals far beyond human comprehension, and that could simply logically brainwash all humanity and control them like ants, in a snap. Unless your player is one of those entities, you will be as threatening as an atom of carbon.

 

[Harg Harfardarssen]

And of course, a shit tons of transcendent beings that should have made humanity obsolete from the very start of the story, because they have access to this technology, allowing a quasi-mathematical control of the universe.

No reason to assume there are a shit ton of such beings in the universe. And even if it were the case, the idea that a higher capacity sentience inevitably makes beings of lower intelligence obsolete is not a justifiable inference. The theoretical capacity for any such entity to control a person completely does not mean it will choose to exert it, let alone exert it across the entirety of the species. We can theoretically train monkeys to be our servants, but we don't (or do so rarely [perhaps too rarely?]).

 

[hiver]

They are completely overwhelmed by all the forces surrounding them, forces that are possessed more often then not by entities with goals far beyond human comprehension, and that could simply logically brainwash all humanity and control them like ants, in a snap

Any proof of this aside from your limited moronic self indulgence? Anywhere?

Doesnt the fact that they are "beyond human comprehension" mean anything to you human imbecile?

 

[GueulEclator]

And of course, a shit tons of transcendent beings that should have made humanity obsolete from the very start of the story, because they have access to this technology, allowing a quasi-mathematical control of the universe.

No reason to assume there are a shit ton of such beings in the universe. And even if it were the case, the idea that a higher capacity sentience inevitably makes beings of lower intelligence obsolete is not a justifiable inference. The theoretical capacity for any such entity to control a person completely does not mean it will choose to exert it, let alone exert it across the entirety of the species. We can theoretically train monkeys to be our servants, but we don't (or do so rarely [perhaps too rarely?]).

Transcendent is transcendent, you cannot scope it, but it can scope you. We are not transcendent compared to monkeys. We are roughly on the same scale as them when compared to entities that would have access to reality altering devices. You cannot interact with such entity because if it wants to, he can simply reset your brain in an instant, and make you do what he wants you to do. That is the case because we have brain reading technology in this setting, as well as superior AI and other stuff that does make biological humans useless and not relevant to any event.

From what you can read about numenera, being in such a setting is equivalent to playing an atom of carbon in our society. Everything you will do is inconsequent, because it could be undone in a second. And you would have to rely on massive author direct input to do something remotely relevant : else you are probably controlled by 27 different things, who multitask 9 different planets.

They are completely overwhelmed by all the forces surrounding them, forces that are possessed more often then not by entities with goals far beyond human comprehension, and that could simply logically brainwash all humanity and control them like ants, in a snap

Any proof of this aside from your limited moronic self indulgence? Anywhere?

Doesnt the fact that they are "beyond human comprehension" mean anything to you human imbecile?

I've explained it 10 times already. Learn to read more than 10 lines you son of a silly person. And if you are not fine with my demonstration, then deconstruct it clearly.